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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #466
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Don't be too hasty to condemn infant baptism. As a former Catholic, I was baptized as an infant, then followed up with "confirmation" when I was at the age of ten. I understand infant baptism as committing a child to Christ by his parents, then when he's old enough to know right from wrong and still believing in Christ, his profession of faith is then sealed in confirmation.

    I'm not asking you to accept this interpretation, it's all mine. As earlier said, I was confirmed aged 10 and remained a Catholic until I was in my twenties before I left for an evangelical church. I am saved and don't believe there's need for me to take a dip in water for another baptism.
    There is every reason to, if not condemn then totally discount, infant baptism. The infant cannot have heard the Word. It cannot have understood the meaning of the Gospel to believe. It cannot have confessed the Name of Jesus and its belief in Jesus as the Son of God. So there is no Biblical reason to baptize an infant. The only example of baptisms in Scripture are adults. So while a dedication of the child to Christ is warranted, (I have done that with both of my children) there is no value or purpose to baptizing them.

  2. #467
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    What makes you believe that 5-year-olds raised in the church, who's heard Bible stories of Jesus and what he stands for (albeit with the understanding of a 5yr old), doesn't know about Jesus?
    I never put an age on accountability for one's sins. I really don't know at what point a child goes from safe to lost. Scripture doesn't put an age on it. But there is a huge difference between knowing about Jesus, and understanding His sacrifice, the purpose behind it, and the relevance to the child's sins.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    The water of the flood is an example of the water of baptism. The power to save was in God in both cases, but if Noah in his case and we in ours, don't go through the water, salvation would not have occurred.
    Doug, an Apostle refutes you with his lesson where I posted the main point of that lesson. The water "represents" or "symbolized/represented" the cleansing that Jesus does for those who choose to believe in Him. HIS BLOOD does all the cleansing and then we, as a SAVED Christian declare what He's done.

    If you find value in commentary, here is a link. I ask that you pray before studying with these scholars: Commentary on the 1 Peter verse: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_peter/3-21.htm
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    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

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  4. #469
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    There is every reason to, if not condemn then totally discount, infant baptism. The infant cannot have heard the Word. It cannot have understood the meaning of the Gospel to believe. It cannot have confessed the Name of Jesus and its belief in Jesus as the Son of God. So there is no Biblical reason to baptize an infant. The only example of baptisms in Scripture are adults. So while a dedication of the child to Christ is warranted, (I have done that with both of my children) there is no value or purpose to baptizing them.
    I agree, Infant Baptism as a Dedication Service is warranted, since we are told to raise up our children in the Lord. To wait a decade or so to start training them in Christianity is disobedience.

    So if your children have been so dedicated in a *kind* of baptism, do you expect they will need to get re-baptized later, when they claim they were lost and suddenly were found?

  5. #470
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    I never put an age on accountability for one's sins. I really don't know at what point a child goes from safe to lost. Scripture doesn't put an age on it. But there is a huge difference between knowing about Jesus, and understanding His sacrifice, the purpose behind it, and the relevance to the child's sins.
    So you admit a child of 5 or 10 can possibly get Saved, and yet would deny them Water Baptism until they're adults?

  6. #471
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I was raising the question. If you say that "choosing wrong makes you lost" then even the Saved Person who chooses wrong is lost, right? And yet you go on to say that somehow being Saved allows you to "choose wrong" and not get lost?

    So if you are the one to decide that someone is not saved, simply because he has not been baptized, why doesn't the Bible require water baptism to be saved? It only says that the one who is both believing and is water baptized will be saved. It does *not* say that the one believing *must* be water baptized to be saved!

    So where in the Scriptures are we told that we need to be Water Baptized in order to be Saved? Nowhere! You are therefore passing judgment on who is Saved, regardless of the evidence that they are indeed Saved, purely because you've concocted a doctrine that Water Baptism is necessary for Salvation. Purely judgmental. I'm happy to not be in your doctrinal fellowship.
    Where in Scripture are we told we need to be baptized in water to be saved?
    Acts 2:37-38 - "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
    This is the first sermon preached in the Kingdom of God. Jesus was raised to Heaven about a week before this. If ever there were a precedent setting event, this is it. So Peter's response, given to him by the Holy Spirit, is of great significance. The men listening were cut to the heart, meaning they believed. Their question, "What must we do?" How can we make this right? The response was not that they already believed so there was nothing they needed to do because Jesus had already done all the work on the Cross. NO, the response was, "Repent, and ... be baptized...." Why? So that their sins could be remitted (washed away).

    Mark 16:15-16 - "And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
    There are four possible actions for someone who reads this to take.
    1. Don't believe and don't be baptized. Obviously that person remains lost.
    2. Don't believe but do be baptized. This person just gets wet. Without belief the person does not receive salvation because the Blood of Jesus does not cleanse someone who does not confess Jesus' Name, and believe that He is God's Son.
    3. Believe, but don't be baptized. This person remains lost, because he did not fulfill the command. A person who truly believes will obey. John 14:21
    4. Believe and be baptized. This person has obeyed, and the promise in the second half of the sentence is his. He will be saved.

    Acts 22:1-16 - "'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’"
    Paul had been sitting in Damascus for three days. He had been fasting, praying, and waiting on God's next command. But when Ananias came, he told him to wash away his sins? If he had been saved when he believed (three days ago on the road when the light shone around him), then he would not still be in sin because the saved have had their sins forgiven. Thus he had not yet been saved, and God's command through Ananias was to be baptized calling on the name of the Lord, and in that process your sins will be washed away.

    Col 2:11-12 - "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
    The circumcision of Christ is done when we are buried with Him in baptism, through which we are resurrected by God just as Jesus was resurrected.

    Rom 6:3-6 - "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
    We are baptized into Christ and into His death. Being united with him in His death, we will be raised with Him also. If we are not united in His death, we cannot be raised with Him. We are still slaves to sin until the old man has been buried in baptism so that the new man can arise from the water to new life.

    There are others, but these were the ones I could think of off the top of my head. No command for us to be baptized to receive salvation? There are many.

  7. #472
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Would you care to elaborate on "choose to disobey"? Do you mean temporary disobedience, rejecting a certain Godly commandment or the outright and sustained turning away from God - as in backsliding? You must clarify what you mean by chose to disobey since you added 'lost' at the end of it.
    All sin... PERIOD. We are not born sinful, but all choose to sin. But we cannot sin if we do not know right and wrong. Without law there is no sin. Thus at some point we understand right and wrong and choose to do wrong, thus to sin.

  8. #473
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree, Infant Baptism as a Dedication Service is warranted, since we are told to raise up our children in the Lord. To wait a decade or so to start training them in Christianity is disobedience.

    So if your children have been so dedicated in a *kind* of baptism, do you expect they will need to get re-baptized later, when they claim they were lost and suddenly were found?
    My children were not baptized, or sprinkled, or had water poured over them at their dedication. They were anointed with oil, presented to God and the congregation of saints, and both our family and the family of God promised to work together to raise them in a Godly way. So yes, they will need to be baptized when they understand their lost state, and realize that the only path back to a relationship with God is through the death of Christ on the cross which is accomplished in baptism.

  9. #474
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    So you admit a child of 5 or 10 can possibly get Saved, and yet would deny them Water Baptism until they're adults?
    If a child of any age demonstrates the understanding of sin, a belief in Jesus as the Son of God, then yes, I would baptize them immediately. I have seen many 10 year olds baptized. 5 year olds don't usually understand, but if I met one who did, they they would be baptized too. It is not an age thing, it is an understanding. If you don't understand, then you just got wet. If there is not a change in direction in your life with regards to sin, repentance, then you just got wet.

  10. #475
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Where in Scripture are we told we need to be baptized in water to be saved?
    Acts 2:37-38 - "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
    This is the first sermon preached in the Kingdom of God. Jesus was raised to Heaven about a week before this. If ever there were a precedent setting event, this is it. So Peter's response, given to him by the Holy Spirit, is of great significance. The men listening were cut to the heart, meaning they believed. Their question, "What must we do?" How can we make this right? The response was not that they already believed so there was nothing they needed to do because Jesus had already done all the work on the Cross. NO, the response was, "Repent, and ... be baptized...." Why? So that their sins could be remitted (washed away).

    Mark 16:15-16 - "And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
    There are four possible actions for someone who reads this to take.
    1. Don't believe and don't be baptized. Obviously that person remains lost.
    2. Don't believe but do be baptized. This person just gets wet. Without belief the person does not receive salvation because the Blood of Jesus does not cleanse someone who does not confess Jesus' Name, and believe that He is God's Son.
    3. Believe, but don't be baptized. This person remains lost, because he did not fulfill the command. A person who truly believes will obey. John 14:21
    4. Believe and be baptized. This person has obeyed, and the promise in the second half of the sentence is his. He will be saved.

    Acts 22:1-16 - "'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’"
    Paul had been sitting in Damascus for three days. He had been fasting, praying, and waiting on God's next command. But when Ananias came, he told him to wash away his sins? If he had been saved when he believed (three days ago on the road when the light shone around him), then he would not still be in sin because the saved have had their sins forgiven. Thus he had not yet been saved, and God's command through Ananias was to be baptized calling on the name of the Lord, and in that process your sins will be washed away.

    Col 2:11-12 - "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
    The circumcision of Christ is done when we are buried with Him in baptism, through which we are resurrected by God just as Jesus was resurrected.

    Rom 6:3-6 - "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
    We are baptized into Christ and into His death. Being united with him in His death, we will be raised with Him also. If we are not united in His death, we cannot be raised with Him. We are still slaves to sin until the old man has been buried in baptism so that the new man can arise from the water to new life.

    There are others, but these were the ones I could think of off the top of my head. No command for us to be baptized to receive salvation? There are many.
    I did not ask for a command to be baptized in the process of getting Saved. Clearly, these were particular accounts in which these things happened, and yet none of them actually *taught* that Water Baptism was necessary for Salvation. On the contrary, in every case the Water Baptism *followed* Salvation, as a kind of seal that they were fully embracing what that meant from now on.

    Clearly, you don't understand what I'm asking for! I'm asking for explicit theology that indicates Water Baptism as an act is essential in order to be Saved for all! You're just citing a standard practice that Jesus established in the Early Church that is never certified as either necessary in all cases or essential for Salvation. None of your passages are anything more than accounts of what was traditional in the time of the 12 Apostles.

    Theological statements actually state a truth in the form of teaching. Not one of your passages indicate a *teaching.* You are drawing your own conclusions, since the Holy Spirit is not drawing those conclusions for you.

  11. #476
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    All sin... PERIOD. We are not born sinful, but all choose to sin. But we cannot sin if we do not know right and wrong. Without law there is no sin. Thus at some point we understand right and wrong and choose to do wrong, thus to sin.
    What do you do with the Bible passages that indicate Man carries on the sin nature from Adam? I believe it to be a spiritual nature, and not actual DNA.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    My children were not baptized, or sprinkled, or had water poured over them at their dedication. They were anointed with oil, presented to God and the congregation of saints, and both our family and the family of God promised to work together to raise them in a Godly way. So yes, they will need to be baptized when they understand their lost state, and realize that the only path back to a relationship with God is through the death of Christ on the cross which is accomplished in baptism.
    So you're raising them as non-Christians dedicated as Christians, but clearly not true Christians until they realize they are Christians, and then get Water Baptized so that they can truly be Christians?

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    If a child of any age demonstrates the understanding of sin, a belief in Jesus as the Son of God, then yes, I would baptize them immediately. I have seen many 10 year olds baptized. 5 year olds don't usually understand, but if I met one who did, they they would be baptized too. It is not an age thing, it is an understanding. If you don't understand, then you just got wet. If there is not a change in direction in your life with regards to sin, repentance, then you just got wet.
    You're contradicting yourself now. You said Water Baptism is an "adult" thing. And now you're saying it isn't. Who's getting wet?

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    What do you do with the Bible passages that indicate Man carries on the sin nature from Adam? I believe it to be a spiritual nature, and not actual DNA.
    Scripture is clear that we are born with the sinful nature as you say. But there is a difference between having a sinful nature and having sinned. Yes, a newborn has a sinful nature. But the child has not sinned yet, because the child does not know what is right and what is wrong. As I pointed out, where there is no law, there is no sin. So until the child learns the law (not the Law of Moses, but what is right and wrong), he cannot sin. And it is our sin that separates us from God, not our sinful nature. Even after we have been baptized and our sins washed away, we still have a sinful nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    What do you do with the Bible passages that indicate Man carries on the sin nature from Adam? I believe it to be a spiritual nature, and not actual DNA.
    Scripture is clear that we are born with the sinful nature as you say. But there is a difference between having a sinful nature and having sinned. Yes, a newborn has a sinful nature. But the child has not sinned yet, because the child does not know what is right and what is wrong. As I pointed out, where there is no law, there is no sin. So until the child learns the law (not the Law of Moses, but what is right and wrong), he cannot sin. And it is our sin that separates us from God, not our sinful nature. Even after we have been baptized and our sins washed away, we still have a sinful nature.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Scripture is clear that we are born with the sinful nature as you say. But there is a difference between having a sinful nature and having sinned. Yes, a newborn has a sinful nature. But the child has not sinned yet, because the child does not know what is right and what is wrong. As I pointed out, where there is no law, there is no sin. So until the child learns the law (not the Law of Moses, but what is right and wrong), he cannot sin. And it is our sin that separates us from God, not our sinful nature. Even after we have been baptized and our sins washed away, we still have a sinful nature.



    Scripture is clear that we are born with the sinful nature as you say. But there is a difference between having a sinful nature and having sinned. Yes, a newborn has a sinful nature. But the child has not sinned yet, because the child does not know what is right and what is wrong. As I pointed out, where there is no law, there is no sin. So until the child learns the law (not the Law of Moses, but what is right and wrong), he cannot sin. And it is our sin that separates us from God, not our sinful nature. Even after we have been baptized and our sins washed away, we still have a sinful nature.
    So they are not in need of Christ? There is another way to the Father?

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