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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #481
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    So you're raising them as non-Christians dedicated as Christians, but clearly not true Christians until they realize they are Christians, and then get Water Baptized so that they can truly be Christians?
    What kind of nonsense is that? I am raising my children as children. As I teach them about sin, and about Christ and His sacrifice for them, when they realize that they are lost I will baptize them into Him, and then they will become my sisters (in Christ) as well as my daughters. You say "realize they are Christians" as if someone can become a Christian without noticing it, or accidentally fall into Christianity.

  2. #482
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You're contradicting yourself now. You said Water Baptism is an "adult" thing. And now you're saying it isn't. Who's getting wet?
    No, I said it is an understanding thing. That doesn't happen usually until young adulthood. It is possible in younger children I suppose, but I have never seen it personally.

  3. #483
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I did not ask for a command to be baptized in the process of getting Saved. Clearly, these were particular accounts in which these things happened, and yet none of them actually *taught* that Water Baptism was necessary for Salvation. On the contrary, in every case the Water Baptism *followed* Salvation, as a kind of seal that they were fully embracing what that meant from now on.

    Clearly, you don't understand what I'm asking for! I'm asking for explicit theology that indicates Water Baptism as an act is essential in order to be Saved for all! You're just citing a standard practice that Jesus established in the Early Church that is never certified as either necessary in all cases or essential for Salvation. None of your passages are anything more than accounts of what was traditional in the time of the 12 Apostles.

    Theological statements actually state a truth in the form of teaching. Not one of your passages indicate a *teaching.* You are drawing your own conclusions, since the Holy Spirit is not drawing those conclusions for you.
    How can water baptism "follow" salvation if the person going into the water is still covered in sin? How can a person still in sin be already saved? Each of these passages tells us a little more of the necessity of baptism. We put on Christ, our sins are washed away, we are resurrected just as Christ was, and we receive the Holy Spirit all in the water of baptism. None of this happens before. You cannot be "saved" if you are still in sin. You cannot be "saved" if you are not in Christ. You cannot be "saved" if your old self has not died and the new person been raised. And all of that happens in the water. Again, not due to anything special about the water, but because God through the Apostles inspired letters said that is where we connect with the Blood of Christ.

  4. #484
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Cornelius and his household were saved, and filled with the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized. They even spoke in tongues before water baptism (immersion).

    God bless!

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Cornelius and his household were saved, and filled with the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized. They even spoke in tongues before baptist.

    God bless!
    This refuting example in how belief results in INSTANT redemption/justification (Christ's work/blood cleansing) before man can even fathom a water baptism... will be ignored. Thus, all the isolated (removed from proper context) scriptures can be used to create a "works" based salvation, which = a different Gospel message.

    The Gospel message is now, Christ saves, ONLY if a man baptizes you (because His blood is not enough).
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  6. #486
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    How can water baptism "follow" salvation if the person going into the water is still covered in sin? How can a person still in sin be already saved? Each of these passages tells us a little more of the necessity of baptism. We put on Christ, our sins are washed away, we are resurrected just as Christ was, and we receive the Holy Spirit all in the water of baptism. None of this happens before. You cannot be "saved" if you are still in sin. You cannot be "saved" if you are not in Christ. You cannot be "saved" if your old self has not died and the new person been raised. And all of that happens in the water. Again, not due to anything special about the water, but because God through the Apostles inspired letters said that is where we connect with the Blood of Christ.
    Because they are not still covered in sin. The only "work" is to believe - John 6 / 29 - Jesus told them " The work of God is this : to believe in the One He has sent". Nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    How can water baptism "follow" salvation if the person going into the water is still covered in sin? How can a person still in sin be already saved? Each of these passages tells us a little more of the necessity of baptism. We put on Christ, our sins are washed away, we are resurrected just as Christ was, and we receive the Holy Spirit all in the water of baptism. None of this happens before. You cannot be "saved" if you are still in sin. You cannot be "saved" if you are not in Christ. You cannot be "saved" if your old self has not died and the new person been raised. And all of that happens in the water. Again, not due to anything special about the water, but because God through the Apostles inspired letters said that is where we connect with the Blood of Christ.
    Because they are not still covered in sin. The only "work" is to believe - John 6 / 29 - Jesus told them " The work of God is this : to believe in the One He has sent". Nothing more.

  7. #487
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    How can water baptism "follow" salvation if the person going into the water is still covered in sin? How can a person still in sin be already saved? Each of these passages tells us a little more of the necessity of baptism. We put on Christ, our sins are washed away, we are resurrected just as Christ was, and we receive the Holy Spirit all in the water of baptism. None of this happens before. You cannot be "saved" if you are still in sin. You cannot be "saved" if you are not in Christ. You cannot be "saved" if your old self has not died and the new person been raised. And all of that happens in the water. Again, not due to anything special about the water, but because God through the Apostles inspired letters said that is where we connect with the Blood of Christ.
    Doug, P just answered ya. In this post, I see a misunderstanding concerning the context of scripture.

    Christ's blood did ALL the work in cleansing a person of sin the moment/instant they believed unto Him. The references about sin and dirt is this: Internally a person who has believed unto Christ, Christ wipes all their sin away (they repented of their sin) in the action of justifying them, redeeming them, making them Born-Again. The believer is made NEW, spiritually they are clothed IN WHITE! But... physically, they are still

    As a Christian, the first action of faith is to be baptized in water and this is a representation (remember my post with the Greek term?) of Christ's wiping all sin away. The physical "dirt/filth" is symbolically utilized as a metaphor of the old-man and when one is baptized in water, this is symbolically representing the CLEANSING that Jesus accomplished when He redeemed the believer. As scripture says, the old-man is washed away (washing of sin). "MAN" who does the water baptism isn't actually washing away the old-man, "man" is not enabling Christ's blood to wash away sin. God the Father enabled His Son's blood for redemption in the moments of His death and resurrection. That is the Gospel message... Christ saves, HIS blood and when a person believes, they are washed CLEAN instantly and are reborn instantly.

    Man does not enable the blood through a baptism. A water baptism is a celebration OF the work that Jesus' Blood completed as we REENACT Christ's work on the cross.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  8. #488
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    How can water baptism "follow" salvation if the person going into the water is still covered in sin? How can a person still in sin be already saved? Each of these passages tells us a little more of the necessity of baptism. We put on Christ, our sins are washed away, we are resurrected just as Christ was, and we receive the Holy Spirit all in the water of baptism. None of this happens before. You cannot be "saved" if you are still in sin. You cannot be "saved" if you are not in Christ. You cannot be "saved" if your old self has not died and the new person been raised. And all of that happens in the water. Again, not due to anything special about the water, but because God through the Apostles inspired letters said that is where we connect with the Blood of Christ.
    Doug, P just answered ya. In this post, I see a misunderstanding concerning the context of scripture.

    Christ's blood did ALL the work in cleansing a person of sin the moment/instant they believed unto Him. The references about sin and dirt is this: Internally a person who has believed unto Christ, Christ wipes all their sin away (they repented of their sin) in the action of justifying them, redeeming them, making them Born-Again. The believer is made NEW, spiritually they are clothed IN WHITE! But... physically, they are still

    As a Christian, the first action of faith is to be baptized in water and this is a representation (remember my post with the Greek term?) of Christ's wiping all sin away. The physical "dirt/filth" is symbolically utilized as a metaphor of the old-man and when one is baptized in water, this is symbolically representing the CLEANSING that Jesus accomplished when He redeemed the believer. As scripture says, the old-man is washed away (washing of sin). "MAN" who does the water baptism isn't actually washing away the old-man, "man" is not enabling Christ's blood to wash away sin. God the Father enabled His Son's blood for redemption in the moments of His death and resurrection. That is the Gospel message... Christ saves, HIS blood and when a person believes, they are washed CLEAN instantly and are reborn instantly.

    Man does not enable the blood through a baptism. A water baptism is a celebration OF the work that Jesus' Blood completed as we REENACT Christ's work on the cross.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  9. #489
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    A water baptism is a celebration OF the work that Jesus' Blood completed as we REENACT Christ's work on the cross.
    This is according to many, but not all. I know most who see baptism as a ritual to show that you have accepted Christ and you promise to abide with Him in not sinning anymore for you are washed by His blood and this by your free will to believe all Christ had done, to those this will be true. For them the ritual of baptism is being done by man by confessing that he has taken Jesus as his Saviour, that he promise to follow Him in obedience, this being done publicly by water baptism by sprinkling or submersion. I hope it is clear that the active participant here is man and the promise is made by man. The sign is by water.

    Covenant or infant baptism is totally something else. There the active party is God who promises that the participant is now being adopted as a people of God and from now He will be your God and you His people/child. This is being done by water by either sprinkling or submersion.

    It is completely different rituals and to compare them with another is to compare apples with oranges. If one realizes this, then one can begin to see if the Bible teaches one or the other or perhaps both?

  10. #490
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Covenant or infant baptism is totally something else. There the active party is God who promises that the participant is now being adopted as a people of God and from now He will be your God and you His people/child. This is being done by water by either sprinkling or submersion.
    The last time we went more indepth with infants, you stated that it is the fact that the child's parents are in a covenant with God. In other words, two unsaved parents (no covenant with God) who still go through a child baptism, you said the child is not saved as well because the parents are not in any covenant.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  11. #491
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    What kind of nonsense is that? I am raising my children as children. As I teach them about sin, and about Christ and His sacrifice for them, when they realize that they are lost I will baptize them into Him, and then they will become my sisters (in Christ) as well as my daughters. You say "realize they are Christians" as if someone can become a Christian without noticing it, or accidentally fall into Christianity.
    The "nonsense" is all yours, brother. It's what your own statements imply, or outright declare.

    You said children are not saved early on--people are not saved until they are water baptized. You said your children were not water baptized, but only dedicated. Therefore, you are saying your children are not saved. You are raising, in effect, *non-Christians.*

    In other words, my statement is true about your beliefs. You are raising them as non-Christians! Own it.

    Nobody ever said you aren't raising your children "as children!" But you are implying, and you are saying, that you are raising non-Christians! If you call your own beliefs "nonsense," why shouldn't I?

  12. #492
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    No, I said it is an understanding thing. That doesn't happen usually until young adulthood. It is possible in younger children I suppose, but I have never seen it personally.
    You said, "The only example of baptisms in Scripture are adults." And you have only used anecdotal evidence as proof that only adults are to be Saved, or Water Baptized. You have completely disregarded actual requirements to provide *theological evidence* for your beliefs, and choose instead to only provide accounts of these things happening.

    Nobody is denying that adult water baptisms happened, nor that it was common practice in the Early Church to engage in water baptism. Nobody is denying that Jesus sent his 11 apostles out to preach the Gospel, as well as to water baptize converts.

    But without theological proof, all of this is merely evidence that these things happened under certain conditions--just like the Pentecostal experience of speaking in tongues. These are anecdotal evidences that these things happened--not proof that they are necessary.

    So now you are changing your tune here. You used biblical evidences of how water baptism was used in the Early Church to prove it is necessary for Salvation. And then you used adult baptism to prove what that implies, that baptism should be for adults.

    But now you're saying that the fact only adults were baptized in the Early Church that this "usually" only takes place with adults. Why on earth, if children can be Saved and Baptized, would that not happen "usually?"

  13. #493
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    How can water baptism "follow" salvation if the person going into the water is still covered in sin? How can a person still in sin be already saved? Each of these passages tells us a little more of the necessity of baptism. We put on Christ, our sins are washed away, we are resurrected just as Christ was, and we receive the Holy Spirit all in the water of baptism. None of this happens before. You cannot be "saved" if you are still in sin. You cannot be "saved" if you are not in Christ. You cannot be "saved" if your old self has not died and the new person been raised. And all of that happens in the water. Again, not due to anything special about the water, but because God through the Apostles inspired letters said that is where we connect with the Blood of Christ.
    That's the point--there's *nothing special about the water!* You're answering your own question, if you're even asking? Since the water cannot Save, Water Baptism doesn't Save. It is the Spirit of God that Saves, and Water Baptism only represents the work of the Spirit!

    I understand where you're making the mistake. Water Baptism is being used as a *symbol* of Salvation. So when Baptism is being explained as a symbol of Salvation, you're mistaking Baptism for what it actually represents!

    Water Baptism symbolizes the Salvation that we experience *before* Baptism. It symbolizes what we *already went through.* It shows how in our previous experience of Salvation we gave up our carnal selves, just as we go down into the water as if under the judgment of Noah's Flood. Our sins have, in a sense, "buried us."

    But then we come up out of the water, which shows how when we were Saved we emerged out of our old lives without having to actually die. We began to live in the spiritual life of Christ, who did rise from the dead. We partake in his resurrection life, and so do not have to remain under a death sentence.

    Don't mistake the symbol for the reality, which *necessarily* takes place *before* the symbolic act. If you're not actually Saved 1st, you're wasting your time getting Water Baptized. You can't partake in an act without knowing, in advance, what it is all about.

  14. #494
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    The last time we went more indepth with infants, you stated that it is the fact that the child's parents are in a covenant with God. In other words, two unsaved parents (no covenant with God) who still go through a child baptism, you said the child is not saved as well because the parents are not in any covenant.
    God is in covenant with the child.

    Gen 17:7* And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.*
    Heb 8:10* For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:*

    If I did said or implied what you are saying, then I must apologized. I am sure I misunderstood. I do not understand how unbelieving parents could administer a child baptism for before the baptism they confess again their faith in Christ and promise to teach and let their child be taught according to Scripture?

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    God is in covenant with the child.

    Gen 17:7* And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.*
    Heb 8:10* For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:*

    If I did said or implied what you are saying, then I must apologized. I am sure I misunderstood. I do not understand how unbelieving parents could administer a child baptism for before the baptism they confess again their faith in Christ and promise to teach and let their child be taught according to Scripture?
    I know of child baptisms where the parents do not have faith in God, they "do it" because it is a "good thing" to do and for the "sake" of the baby, they go through the motions... and to satisfy the grandparents (who won't stop nagging) who insist the new baby should be baptized.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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