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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #211
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    This makes me laugh. If it was this simple we would not have this thread or numerous others.

    When were you saved and when was the thief saved? Was it the same moment?

    If all men were saved when Christ died on the cross, then what does it matter when you were baptized as it is a sign of what happened on the cross? If you were not saved at the cross, then Christ is not your saviour.
    You're leaping into something that ISN"T simple and something I never meant.

    My meaning was that baptism comes after a genuine profession of faith, which is what CBH was saying.. and it really is that simple.

  2. #212

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I take established scholars like Strong and Vine and use them. I copied and pasted Strong verbatim. It is possible that the program I have is corrupted.
    What's most likely is that your "program" has addition to Strong's that are incorrect. And,as I said, Thayer's would be much better than Strong's (although both tools are dangerous in the hands of somebody who doesn't know Greek). Very early on the post thread I linked to Thayer's.

    And I see you've ignored everything I said about the way the verbs are used.

  3. #213
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Maybe I misunderstood? You said this:


    That is very confusing to me because I still see Water Baptism as a Faith Ritual.
    Then why don't you see it was necessary? If you don't see it was necessary you would say it was a Ritual, not a Faith Ritual. If faith is required, and it is, then it's necessary.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't believe the ritual somehow causes us to be immersed in God's Presence, but I do believe it is a public expression of our decision to follow Christ. As such, it is an expression of *what we believe!*
    which in the early church required faith. If you didn't really believe you wouldn't risk your life and persecution to yourself and your loved ones.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You are saying that at one time Water Baptism was indeed a Faith Ritual, and that today it is so "no longer." That confuses me!
    Faith is no longer required for the vast majority. What is the vast majority risking being baptized today? Nothing. Faith is not required for that.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm probably not understanding your point too well? I did look up your link, but that seems to deal with the Sin Nature and Pelagianism.
    Really?

    "Ritual was a major part of religion at the time. Did the Apostles agree this meant sins remitted and salvation for infants? John the Baptist, Jesus, and the Apostles didn't mention infant baptism, and as far as we know did not practice it. The Apostles fought and spoke against philosophies, Gnosticism, and Ďtheir rival mystery religionsí of the day in their epistles and said when they departed wolves would bring damnable heresies, not sparing the flock, speaking perverse things, drawing away disciples and overthrowing the faith of some.

    Iím not going to write an essay on Church History because it speaks for itself on this subject, if you take the time to learn it. Christianity didnít corner the market on baptism or mystery religions. Other religions much older than Christianity baptized and because of similarities Christianity was considered another mystery religion. The world of the early Church was one of paganism, ritual, and the need to 'do something' and contribute to their religion, and religious Ďcompetitioní. The second century Church was different than the first, and the third different than the second, and so on, all getting further away from Scripture because different religions and cultures influence each other when they mingle. Many donít attempt to understand what this was like, and unfortunately interpret scripture without the historical and cultural lens."

    That's about Baptism and is how the Thread starts.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    And that's another subject entirely. You'd have to tie the issues in your link with what you're claiming here about Water Baptism, Rituals, and Faith.
    I was trying to get you to view baptism in an historical/cultural lens and compare it to today. When people get baptized today are they putting a target on their back? No. Faith is not required. It is not a faith ritual anymore. It's just a ritual. Then, if you refused baptism you were denying Christ and he would deny you. Now it's just behind four walls with friendlies/no enemies around to see you aligning yourself with what they'd consider a false Messiah and heretical teachings deserving of death. You are not denying Christ before men today by not being baptized. It was not an initiation to a club. It was how they made their religious stance. It's just not like that anymore for the vast majority.

  4. #214
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Then why don't you see it was necessary? If you don't see it was necessary you would say it was a Ritual, not a Faith Ritual. If faith is required, and it is, then it's necessary.
    Lots of things we do in faith are not necessary. We go to church on Sunday in faith. It isn't necessary. We sometimes pray before meals. It isn't necessary. Etc.

    We convert to Christ in faith. That is necessary. But then we decide to get Water Baptized as a public confession of our conversion to Christianity. It isn't necessary, but it is done in faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    which in the early church required faith. If you didn't really believe you wouldn't risk your life and persecution to yourself and your loved ones.
    Right, in the Early Church getting Baptized may have been a heroic act at times. But it wasn't necessary for Salvation. It was just what the apostles were required to do in their ministry of converting others to Christ.

    That doesn't mean it was necessary for Salvation, nor did it mean that it was anything more than a reasonable means of asking converts to express their faith in a public demonstration of what Christianity means. People converting to a new religion had to know how to express their acceptance of that belief system. Christ offer Water Baptism as an acceptable means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    Faith is no longer required for the vast majority. What is the vast majority risking being baptized today? Nothing. Faith is not required for that.
    You're conflating Faith with Risk. You don't have to risk anything to have faith. Faith has as its object Christ. That is not always an imminent risk. But it is a brave move, because ultimately the world hates those who embrace Christ. Accepting Christ is not popular, but it is not for that reason "faith." What makes it faith is acceptance of the terms that Christ presents to a person. Those terms are the reality of God's Spirit as opposed to going our own way, and not living in dependence upon him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    Really?

    "Ritual was a major part of religion at the time. Did the Apostles agree this meant sins remitted and salvation for infants? John the Baptist, Jesus, and the Apostles didn't mention infant baptism, and as far as we know did not practice it. The Apostles fought and spoke against philosophies, Gnosticism, and Ďtheir rival mystery religionsí of the day in their epistles and said when they departed wolves would bring damnable heresies, not sparing the flock, speaking perverse things, drawing away disciples and overthrowing the faith of some.

    Iím not going to write an essay on Church History because it speaks for itself on this subject, if you take the time to learn it. Christianity didnít corner the market on baptism or mystery religions. Other religions much older than Christianity baptized and because of similarities Christianity was considered another mystery religion. The world of the early Church was one of paganism, ritual, and the need to 'do something' and contribute to their religion, and religious Ďcompetitioní. The second century Church was different than the first, and the third different than the second, and so on, all getting further away from Scripture because different religions and cultures influence each other when they mingle. Many donít attempt to understand what this was like, and unfortunately interpret scripture without the historical and cultural lens."

    That's about Baptism and is how the Thread starts.
    Yes, and it went beyond that to the Sin Nature and Pelagianism, as I recall. I've heard the arguments before, and am not interested in dealing with them here.

    I did have a problem determining the progress of your thinking in this because you don't always come out and state your view. You sort of let the reader draw the same conclusions that you imply are reasonable.

    For example, you state that Christianity was born in a time of religious ritual. And you include in that environment Mystery Religions and Gnosticism and a perhaps Jewish ritualism under the Law. What is your implication here, that the ritual environment into which Christianity was born made it immediately vulnerable to the influence of corrupt rituals? You need to spell out what your conclusions are!

    You imply that Christianity gets worse generation after generation. Again, what conclusion are you drawing--that Christianity is becoming more ritualistic by engaging in infant baptism, etc.? You need to spell out your conclusions!

    For starters, I don't equate Jewish ritualism with corrupt forms of pagan ritualism, although that certainly happened in the time of Jesus, when the Pharisees practiced rituals with little sense of what they actually meant. Ritual Baptism in Christianity was certainly not a corrupt ritual, but likely was given in the backdrop of John the Baptist's ministry, taking ritual-oriented Jews into a new kind of initiation ritual into Christianity. But it wasn't corrupt, nor was the ritual a required form of legalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    I was trying to get you to view baptism in an historical/cultural lens and compare it to today. When people get baptized today are they putting a target on their back? No. Faith is not required. It is not a faith ritual anymore. It's just a ritual. Then, if you refused baptism you were denying Christ and he would deny you. Now it's just behind four walls with friendlies/no enemies around to see you aligning yourself with what they'd consider a false Messiah and heretical teachings deserving of death. You are not denying Christ before men today by not being baptized. It was not an initiation to a club. It was how they made their religious stance. It's just not like that anymore for the vast majority.
    Water Baptism was never an initiation ceremony into a "club," but rather a ritual depicting our initiation into Christ when we receive him by faith. It is sort of play-acting what we did when we accepted Christ's life in place of our carnal life. We were drowned in the waters of judgment, just like Noah's Flood, but then rose up with Christ by faith in his resurrection. It was an expression that Christ had forgiven us, giving us his righteousness as a way to overcome death, obtaining eternal life.

    It is not the risk that makes Water Baptism "faith." Rather, it is the willful exchange of our carnal life for Christ's spiritual life, when we begin to make choices in the light of Christ's love. Water Baptism doesn't obtain "faith value" because we do it as a risk to our lives. Faith begins at conversion and continues for the rest of our lives. Water Baptism is only one expression of faith, following Salvation, so as to let the public and our friends know we've decided to change over to Christian living.

  5. #215
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    In all honesty, you stating that you have opponents means you are not allowing metal to sharpen metal. Based on your posts, I asked a question. Now, in this post I'm responding to, you summed up your "words"

    Based on these words, I wonder now... was Jesus lying to the thief

    Anyway, question stands: This person who believed unto Christ and 3 hours later is killed, they did not meet ANY of the qualifiers in the list, would you tell their loved one's that the deceased will not be with Christ for eternity? Or, knowing that this person who died following his accepting of Christ, you tell the loved one's he IS with Christ in heaven?

    Earlier this month or last month I posted this:

    No place in the thief's book will you find your list of qualifiers, yet Jesus informed the thief that he'd be in heaven with Him.
    So I take it that I did not make such statements, that you take it as a small matter to have attributed them to me, and that YOUR statements are still to be answered by me even though I did not make them. Is this not what they did to Jesus at His trial?

    You will understand if I pass.

    But I will propose that you do not attribute your statements to scripture. Paradise is NOT heaven. Paradise is Paradise. Matthew 12:40 and Ephesians 4:9-10 says that our Lord DESCENDED FIRST to the "heart of the earth". The thief, together with our Lord Jesus were UNDER THE EARTH. At no time did our Lord go to heaven as a dead man. Shortly after he ROSE he advised a sister not to touch Him because He "had not YET ascended to His Father". And, in case you would like to quote 2nd Corinthians 12:4 that Paradise is "UP", be advised that the Greek word "harpazo" doe NOT indicate direction. Nor is "up" found in the text. It is correctly translated "caught away" as in Acts 8:39. In this case is was not "up" but horizontally to Azotus. Based on the direct and plain statements of our Lord Jesus, Paradise is DOWN.

    As I said in an earlier posting, the thief asked our Lord Jesus to remember him when He came into His Kingdom, but that our Lord answered NOT A WORD about the Kingdom. The thief did not qualify. What he DID qualify for was (i) rebirth (a matter of the spirit of man - Jn.3:3, 6), (ii) eternal life, (iii) sonship to God, and (iv) having his sins put away. The Kingdom requires (i) rebirth (Jn.3:3) PLUS (ii) Baptism (Jn.3:5) PLUS (iii) OBEDIENCE (Matt.7:21) PLUS (iv) an intimate walk with Christ (Matt.7:23) PLUS(v) faithful service (parable of the Talents and Pounds) PLUS (vi) a holy living (Gal.5:21; Eph.5:5). The thief was missing FIVE out of these SIX, and so NOT A WORD IS SAID ABOUT THE KINGDOM by our Lord.

  6. #216
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Walls, when Philip was led to the eunuch and helped him understand about Jesus, why did Philip hesitate to baptize the man?
    To check if he admitted the Savior - point #2.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    What's most likely is that your "program" has addition to Strong's that are incorrect. And,as I said, Thayer's would be much better than Strong's (although both tools are dangerous in the hands of somebody who doesn't know Greek). Very early on the post thread I linked to Thayer's.

    And I see you've ignored everything I said about the way the verbs are used.
    On the contrary, I noted what you said, but (i) you did not pose a question, and (ii) I have the Bible to check how the verbs are used. Reference Works are a SAFE TOOL to check if another man is being honest. The Bible is written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Is it a dangerous tool? Or did our Lord cause 49 of the most impeccable scholars to translate the King James Version - scholars not only eminently qualified, but under enormous peer pressure not to err. Strong too is subject to tremendous scrutiny but is still THE reference work, especially when Vine, also under scrutiny, supports him.

    I made some serious points brother, about you not copying and pasting Thayer OR your "correct" version of Strong's. I think that you should address them.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    To check if he admitted the Savior - point #2.
    Hooah! So based on scripture and lessons given to us by scripture, can one be baptized before or after Christ justifies a person?

    Is this verse correct in that what the eunuch did, admitted the Savior, allowed Christ to save (justify/redeem) him the instant he admitted the Savior?

    If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. óRomans 10:9-10, ESV
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  9. #219
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    So I take it that I did not make such statements, that you take it as a small matter to have attributed them to me, and that YOUR statements are still to be answered by me even though I did not make them. Is this not what they did to Jesus at His trial?

    You will understand if I pass.

    But I will propose that you do not attribute your statements to scripture. Paradise is NOT heaven. Paradise is Paradise. Matthew 12:40 and Ephesians 4:9-10 says that our Lord DESCENDED FIRST to the "heart of the earth". The thief, together with our Lord Jesus were UNDER THE EARTH. At no time did our Lord go to heaven as a dead man. Shortly after he ROSE he advised a sister not to touch Him because He "had not YET ascended to His Father". And, in case you would like to quote 2nd Corinthians 12:4 that Paradise is "UP", be advised that the Greek word "harpazo" doe NOT indicate direction. Nor is "up" found in the text. It is correctly translated "caught away" as in Acts 8:39. In this case is was not "up" but horizontally to Azotus. Based on the direct and plain statements of our Lord Jesus, Paradise is DOWN.

    As I said in an earlier posting, the thief asked our Lord Jesus to remember him when He came into His Kingdom, but that our Lord answered NOT A WORD about the Kingdom. The thief did not qualify. What he DID qualify for was (i) rebirth (a matter of the spirit of man - Jn.3:3, 6), (ii) eternal life, (iii) sonship to God, and (iv) having his sins put away. The Kingdom requires (i) rebirth (Jn.3:3) PLUS (ii) Baptism (Jn.3:5) PLUS (iii) OBEDIENCE (Matt.7:21) PLUS (iv) an intimate walk with Christ (Matt.7:23) PLUS(v) faithful service (parable of the Talents and Pounds) PLUS (vi) a holy living (Gal.5:21; Eph.5:5). The thief was missing FIVE out of these SIX, and so NOT A WORD IS SAID ABOUT THE KINGDOM by our Lord.
    Verse 42 brother, the paradise in verse 43 IS about the Kingdom

    I propose that Jesus is God and thus, Jesus was not lying to the thief about being in heaven with "Him" today.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  10. #220
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Verse 42 brother, the paradise in verse 43 IS about the Kingdom

    I propose that Jesus is God and thus, Jesus was not lying to the thief about being in heaven with "Him" today.
    It is not a bad thing, but one of the main reasons we have all these disputes on this Forum is because men make one thing something else for no reason.
    1. The Kingdom of God is a sphere of influence where God is obeyed as King. He is obeyed in heaven, but not on earth. The Kingdom that our Lord Jesus will have will be set up on earth AFTER His return and His slaughtering the Gentile army at Armageddon. That is the Kingdom that was the subject of discussion between the thief and our Lord Jesus.
    2. Heaven is a place where God has His heavenly Tabernacle and His Throne. There is NO RECORD of any DEAD MAN EVER GOING TO HEAVEN. It is a Roman Catholic MYTH
    3. Paradise is a PLACE where the SOULS of dead men go to await for resurrection. It is a compartment of HADES - UNDER THE EARTH.

    Your proposal that the one is the other is groundless. They are THREE TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS and never overlap.

    Our Lord Jesus was asked to remember a man worthy of the death penalty (by his own admission) WHEN HE BECAME KING OF THE EARTH. Our Lord Jesus does not enter into this discussion AT ALL! There is no mention, by our Lord, of the Kingdom. There is NO MENTION of heaven. Our Lord acknowledges the FAITH of the thief and indicates that the thief will, IN DEATH, have all the privileges of a man of FAITH. In LIFE, when he is one day resurrected from Paradise, IS ANOTHER MATTER. He is NOT qualified for the KINGDOM and so our Lord Jesus does not address it.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It is not a bad thing, but one of the main reasons we have all these disputes on this Forum is because men make one thing something else for no reason.
    1. The Kingdom of God is a sphere of influence where God is obeyed as King. He is obeyed in heaven, but not on earth. The Kingdom that our Lord Jesus will have will be set up on earth AFTER His return and His slaughtering the Gentile army at Armageddon. That is the Kingdom that was the subject of discussion between the thief and our Lord Jesus.
    2. Heaven is a place where God has His heavenly Tabernacle and His Throne. There is NO RECORD of any DEAD MAN EVER GOING TO HEAVEN. It is a Roman Catholic MYTH
    3. Paradise is a PLACE where the SOULS of dead men go to await for resurrection. It is a compartment of HADES - UNDER THE EARTH.

    Your proposal that the one is the other is groundless. They are THREE TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS and never overlap.

    Our Lord Jesus was asked to remember a man worthy of the death penalty (by his own admission) WHEN HE BECAME KING OF THE EARTH. Our Lord Jesus does not enter into this discussion AT ALL! There is no mention, by our Lord, of the Kingdom. There is NO MENTION of heaven. Our Lord acknowledges the FAITH of the thief and indicates that the thief will, IN DEATH, have all the privileges of a man of FAITH. In LIFE, when he is one day resurrected from Paradise, IS ANOTHER MATTER. He is NOT qualified for the KINGDOM and so our Lord Jesus does not address it.
    If you can do me a favor, can you link me to any commentary that supports/aligns with what you've posted in these last couple posts of yours?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  12. #222
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    If you can do me a favor, can you link me to any commentary that supports/aligns with what you've posted in these last couple posts of yours?
    Sure.

    https://www.schoettlepublishing.com/index.html

    The above link will let you download some books and buy others. Lewis Schoettle made it his aim to reprint books that had gone out of print. The Reformation was a grand work by the Lord, but its aims were limited. Men strove for the truth of salvation by faith and neglected others. But by the early 1800's the Lord started to recover truths of the Rapture, His Second Coming and the Millennial Kingdom. Mostly this came from the Plymouth Brethren, but the Lord, ever faithful to His truth, raised up a number of men outside the Brethren who put the writings of the Brethren under scrutiny. Nobody is perfect, and mistakes were made on both sides. Each of us must consider the arguments and see if they fit scripture.

    My favorite is Robert Govett. Please note that Govett was a Fellow of Oxford, an MA in languages and wrote for scholars, not the common man. He expects you to know scripture and so he can be heavy going. His strength was to maintain sustained logical argument to its logical end, or ditch the whole concept if it failed in logic or language. His book on "The Saints Rapture" is 357 pages. He considers scripture, then every argument, counter argument and and counter-counter argument. Another excellent work is "Govett on the Parables", in which, for example, the Parable of the Ten Virgins gets nearly 95 pages.

    Robert Anderson and G. H. Pember are easier to read but just as deep. I will not recommend any one book to you. Let the Lord lead your choice and let the Lord lead your final decision on its truths - or lack of them.

    God bless.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Hooah! So based on scripture and lessons given to us by scripture, can one be baptized before or after Christ justifies a person?

    Is this verse correct in that what the eunuch did, admitted the Savior, allowed Christ to save (justify/redeem) him the instant he admitted the Savior?

    If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. —Romans 10:9-10, ESV
    To be super-accurate, I would go along with you if you did not use the word "justified" only. Consider an earlier scripture from Romans 5:9-11:

    9 "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."


    Here, FAITH causes at least FOUR things;
    1. Saved from His wrath - but it is FUTURE TENSE
    2. Reconciled - is past tense
    3. Saved by His life - present continuous tense
    4. Atonement - present tense

    And if you add the consequences of FAITH in John you can add two more:
    1. Sonship to God (Jn.1:12-13)
    2. Eternal Life (Jn.3:15-16)

    Let us not open these up here for a book is needed. But the word "justified" has more to do with JUDGMENT. It shows whether your actions and position are found JUST. Now, Romans 3:20 assures us that NO FLESH can be justified. So when it comes to judging a man, God will find every man GUILTY. But those who cast their confidence on Jesus His Son, will, at the assize, have God's findings of Christ imputed to them - and God found Christ perfect in all His ways. So justified is correct, but it is only part of the matter. A man who believes in Jesus Christ, has, in that moment of BELIEF and CONFESSION, the whole package added to him.

    Now, to close, we must understand the the sequence in Acts 2 versus the sequence in Romans. In Acts 2 Peter and the eleven were addressing Israelites with 1,500 years of the Tanakh. The Messiah had been predicted since Moses (Deut.18:18). They needed no introduction to a Savior. He is the central theme of the whole Old Testament. What had happened to Israel is that when presented with their Messiah, they went the wrong way and murdered Him. To them the call is "REPENT" first, not BELIEVE. "Repent" means to to turn 180į in your actions. "Repent" includes believe, but it is an action where you reverse your behavior. In Romans, the HEATHEN are addressed mainly. The have no such history as Israel. They are steeped in polytheism and idol worship. They have no Tanakh. So in Romans the call is to BELIEVE in Jesus as the sole and unique Savior, and to CONFESS Him. Baptism is revealed in Chapter six, for what it is, but it is presented based on other teachings. It is assumed that the Christian will obey and be Immersed in water after he/she believes.

    So in my sequence, I include all.
    1. Repent - as in acknowledging that my path leads to destruction and I confess the hopelessness of my position
    2. Believe in a Substitute and Confess Him alone as my propitiation and receive the Holy Spirit for Eternal LIFE
    3. Be Immersed in Jesus's name
    4. Receive the Holy Spirit for POWER

    Returning to your question, I would word it thus; At the moment of FAITH in Jesus, AND the Confession of Him as Savior, I receive the full package of what is already achieved, what is achieved at that moment and what will be achieved in the future. I don't have to understand it. I don't have to be schooled on it. It is mine by FAITH. THEN ... starts the walk of a Christian - a walk of OBEDIENCE to the New Master. And the first action, or work, is to be Immersed in Jesus's Name. Thus is to be done as soon as water for immersion is available. In our western style of living that usually means the bath tub. But the sea, a river, a swimming pool and/or a dam is fine.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    brother like everything else , what was sent to Israel , including baptism for the remission of sin. Is the same exact thing sent first to Israel , John the Baptist. Then the exact same process , the exact same reason remission of sins....is sent by Jesus with the apostles .

    bro I've never said johns baptism continued ....its only called johns baptism ...because Jesus name had not been declared. They were still baptized in water for repentance and remission of sin . It's the exact same reason Christians are baptized . The only difference is johns ministry preceded Jesus name being declared . John was absolutely baptizing into Christ, he was preaching Jesus Christ and faith in him while he was baptizing ....

    .....
    Dear brother Follower1977,

    You have answered me a number of times to which I have not responded. Please forgive me. I am not ignoring you. I have read them and considered them. They present two difficulties for me. First, they are lengthy and include many concepts, the which, if I commented on, would take up pages. Second, the issue of Israel would derail the the thread. Added to this, I have multiple opponents in this matter of Baptism and they are taking up all my capacity. Would you allow me to pass on these postings. I agree with many of your points but understand that Israel and the Church are two different entities. We will surely meet again on this, or some other subject.

    Thank you for your understanding and God bless.

  15. #225

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    On the contrary, I noted what you said, but (i) you did not pose a question, and (ii) I have the Bible to check how the verbs are used.
    Really? So how about the fact that in the ESV, NKJV, and almost every other translation, pimplēmi is never translated as "furnish"? Even in the old KJV, it's only translated that way once (in Mat 22:10, where everyone can see that "filled" would be a better translation). The word pimplēmi does not mean "furnish."

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Reference Works are a SAFE TOOL to check if another man is being honest.
    Only if you actually understand them. That requires some knowledge of Greek.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Or did our Lord cause 49 of the most impeccable scholars to translate the King James Version
    The ESV is a much, much better translation, in fact. Better still is reading the original.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Strong too is subject to tremendous scrutiny but is still THE reference work
    Not really (although everyone uses his numbering scheme). Among lexicons, Thayer's, the widely used LSJ, and the more recent Louw-Nida are all better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I made some serious points brother, about you not copying and pasting Thayer OR your "correct" version of Strong's. I think that you should address them.
    And I made some points about you not following my links to pimplēmi and plēroō (you will find both Strong's and Thayer's there).

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