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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #226

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    My favorite is Robert Govett.
    Ironically, he wrote The Bride's Bath, a book on baptism (from the Baptist viewpoint) which completely contradicts your position.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Returning to your question, I would word it thus; At the moment of FAITH in Jesus, AND the Confession of Him as Savior, I receive the full package of what is already achieved, what is achieved at that moment and what will be achieved in the future. I don't have to understand it. I don't have to be schooled on it. It is mine by FAITH. THEN ... starts the walk of a Christian - a walk of OBEDIENCE to the New Master. And the first action, or work, is to be Immersed in Jesus's Name. Thus is to be done as soon as water for immersion is available. In our western style of living that usually means the bath tub. But the sea, a river, a swimming pool and/or a dam is fine.
    Hooah... but if this is not accomplished at the first possible moment and on the way home from a service where a person confessed Jesus as Savior (proof/evidence of their faith in Him), they are killed in a wreck. What shall the leadership in the church, where the person was born-again, say to the family when they ask if their child/sibling is in heaven or not??
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  3. #228
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Sure.

    https://www.schoettlepublishing.com/index.html

    The above link will let you download some books and buy others. Lewis Schoettle made it his aim to reprint books that had gone out of print. The Reformation was a grand work by the Lord, but its aims were limited. Men strove for the truth of salvation by faith and neglected others. But by the early 1800's the Lord started to recover truths of the Rapture, His Second Coming and the Millennial Kingdom. Mostly this came from the Plymouth Brethren, but the Lord, ever faithful to His truth, raised up a number of men outside the Brethren who put the writings of the Brethren under scrutiny. Nobody is perfect, and mistakes were made on both sides. Each of us must consider the arguments and see if they fit scripture.

    My favorite is Robert Govett. Please note that Govett was a Fellow of Oxford, an MA in languages and wrote for scholars, not the common man. He expects you to know scripture and so he can be heavy going. His strength was to maintain sustained logical argument to its logical end, or ditch the whole concept if it failed in logic or language. His book on "The Saints Rapture" is 357 pages. He considers scripture, then every argument, counter argument and and counter-counter argument. Another excellent work is "Govett on the Parables", in which, for example, the Parable of the Ten Virgins gets nearly 95 pages.

    Robert Anderson and G. H. Pember are easier to read but just as deep. I will not recommend any one book to you. Let the Lord lead your choice and let the Lord lead your final decision on its truths - or lack of them.

    God bless.
    Tell me, if someone came up to you and asked, "what must I do to be saved?" How would you answer this in a single sentence?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  4. #229
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Lots of things we do in faith are not necessary. We go to church on Sunday in faith.
    It doesn't take faith to "go to church on Sunday". They are filled with unbelievers.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    We sometimes pray before meals. It isn't necessary. Etc.
    Lie to me! I always pray before meals and have found it necessary.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    We convert to Christ in faith. That is necessary. But then we decide to get Water Baptized as a public confession of our conversion to Christianity. It isn't necessary, but it is done in faith.
    Baptism today behind the four walls of your local church is not public and it doesn't require faith.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Right, in the Early Church getting Baptized may have been a heroic act at times. But it wasn't necessary for Salvation. It was just what the apostles were required to do in their ministry of converting others to Christ.
    Completely wrong, and the reason you do not understand what I am saying. If it wasn't necessary then you believe someone could have refused baptism, denied Christ before men, and still be saved. Is that what you believe, contrary to Jesus' words?


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You're conflating Faith with Risk.
    Silly. 1/3 of the NT is the willingness to endure risk for the faith by faith.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You don't have to risk anything to have faith.
    Maybe we don't but they sure did. The sooner you start understanding scripture from a historical/cultural perspective the sooner you'll have understanding.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Faith has as its object Christ. That is not always an imminent risk. But it is a brave move, because ultimately the world hates those who embrace Christ.
    The world doesn't know you accepted Christ because you were baptized, like it did in the bible. You getting this yet?


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It is not the risk that makes Water Baptism "faith."
    Baptism faith? Huh? That makes no sense. You cannot say it did not take faith to be baptized in Jesus. Sorry. The risk was paramount. If your weren't willing to live the gospel you were not worthy of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Water Baptism doesn't obtain "faith value" because we do it as a risk to our lives.
    Because there is no risk to our lives. Then, there was and it did in fact credit reward.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Faith begins at conversion
    Wrong. Faith is required for conversion.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    and continues for the rest of our lives. Water Baptism is only one expression of faith
    Is it? Do you not realize how many unbelievers are baptized?


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    following Salvation, so as to let the public and our friends know we've decided to change over to Christian living.
    Public? Ha!

  5. #230
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    Really? So how about the fact that in the ESV, NKJV, and almost every other translation, pimplēmi is never translated as "furnish"? Even in the old KJV, it's only translated that way once (in Mat 22:10, where everyone can see that "filled" would be a better translation). The word pimplēmi does not mean "furnish."



    Only if you actually understand them. That requires some knowledge of Greek.



    The ESV is a much, much better translation, in fact. Better still is reading the original.



    Not really (although everyone uses his numbering scheme). Among lexicons, Thayer's, the widely used LSJ, and the more recent Louw-Nida are all better.



    And I made some points about you not following my links to pimplēmi and plēroō (you will find both Strong's and Thayer's there).
    I'm still waiting for the posting and paragraph were you maintain that I said that the word "filled" appears in John 20:22. It is important because you wrote that my argument collapses on that alone.

    Going to your link I found (i) nothing different to my copy and paste of Strong's, (ii) no problem with the usage of the word "filled", and (iii) that it uses Vine happily. Here is what you refuse to do - copy and paste. This time, from your reference.

    5 Verb Strong's Number: g4130 Greek: pimplemi | pletho

    Fill, Fill Up: lengthened forms of pleo, "to fill" (pletho supplies certain tenses of pimplemi), is used

    (1) of things; boats, with fish, Luk 5:7; a sponge, with vinegar, Mat 27:48 (some mss. have this verb in Jhn 19:29); a city, with confusion, Act 19:29; a wedding, with guests, Mat 22:10;

    (2) of persons (only in Luke's writings):

    (a) with the Holy Spirit, Luk 1:15, 41, 67; Act 2:4; 4:8, 31; 9:17; 13:9;

    (b) with emotions: wrath, Luk 4:28; fear, Luk 5:26; madness, Luk 6:11; wonder, amazement, Act 3:10; jealousy, Act 5:17, RV, for AV, "indignation," and Act 13:45 (AV, "envy"). For its other significance, "to complete," see ACCOMPLISH.


    But pray, after you have found my quote that I maintained that the word "filled" was in John 20:22, you can enlighten us all by giving your understanding of Acts 2:4. After all, that is what this Forum is for.

  6. #231
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    Ironically, he wrote The Bride's Bath, a book on baptism (from the Baptist viewpoint) which completely contradicts your position.
    Thank you for the information. I don't see the irony though as I stated that "mistakes were made on both sides". That is, both time and various views have cast some doubt of some of their writings. The "noble" student of scripture compares every man's teaching with scripture (Act.17:11). I do not agree with all that Govett maintains, only that among the men outside the Brethren who expounded the Bible, he was my favorite.

    So now, you too have the platform to expound how necessary (or unnecessary) Baptism is. Why not leave your sniper position and enter the fray with a good solid exegesis. We will retire to your position and snipe at small things you said.

  7. #232
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Hooah... but if this is not accomplished at the first possible moment and on the way home from a service where a person confessed Jesus as Savior (proof/evidence of their faith in Him), they are killed in a wreck. What shall the leadership in the church, where the person was born-again, say to the family when they ask if their child/sibling is in heaven or not??
    It is a most interesting phenomena that I have repeatedly said, and shown, that dead men do not go to heaven, and yet you brush that aside without comment. If it is such a mainstay of your religion, why, just post four or so verses that plainly state that the dead go to heaven, and I will desist. After all, we are all students of the Bible and such a beloved and important doctrine must be well documented in both Testaments.

    As to what the leadership of the Church should say in a case like you have proposed, why, you have withheld crucial information. Was there water enough there to Immerse the person? Who refused the immersion - leadership, or the new convert? For what reason? The one who refused Immersion must take the responsibility. But your question is probably moot, for I showed a number of requirements (with supporting scriptures) for ENTRY into the Kingdom when Christ sets it up on earth when He returns. And a person who is converted and dies within an hour is no different to the thief on the cross next to Jesus. We seem to be running in a circle.

  8. #233
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Tell me, if someone came up to you and asked, "what must I do to be saved?" How would you answer this in a single sentence?
    Let the Bible answer your question. Which sentence do you want? Take your pick.

    John 10:9 - I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

    Acts 2:21 - And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Acts 2:40 - And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

    Romans 8:24 - For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

    Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    1st Timothy 2:15 - Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

    1st Peter 3:21 - The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    John 4:22 - Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

    Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    Philippians 2:12 - Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    1st Peter 1:9 - Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (This is written in context of suffering trials)

    Based on your responses I am beginning to think that you are not serious. You have brushed aside quite some explanations.

  9. #234

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Going to your link I found (i) nothing different to my copy and paste of Strong's
    That's incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    it uses Vine happily
    As I said, Thayer's is better than Strong's or Vine's. I've given the link; no need to copy/paste.

    And, once more, because you seem to have missed it, in the ESV, NKJV, and almost every other translation, pimplēmi is never translated as "furnish." Even in the old KJV, it's only translated that way once (in Mat 22:10, where everyone can see that "filled" would be a better translation). The word pimplēmi simply does not mean "furnish."

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    So now, you too have the platform to expound how necessary (or unnecessary) Baptism is.
    I hold to orthodox Reformed Christian belief. I have already quoted the Heidelberg Catechism with Scripture references. Thousands of books make the orthodox Reformed Christian case. That's ample.

  10. #235
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    That's incorrect.



    As I said, Thayer's is better than Strong's or Vine's. I've given the link; no need to copy/paste.

    And, once more, because you seem to have missed it, in the ESV, NKJV, and almost every other translation, pimplēmi is never translated as "furnish." Even in the old KJV, it's only translated that way once (in Mat 22:10, where everyone can see that "filled" would be a better translation). The word pimplēmi simply does not mean "furnish."



    I hold to orthodox Reformed Christian belief. I have already quoted the Heidelberg Catechism with Scripture references. Thousands of books make the orthodox Reformed Christian case. That's ample.
    Thank you for the exchange. Go well.

  11. #236
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    It doesn't take faith to "go to church on Sunday". They are filled with unbelievers.
    I'm talking about believers who go to a good church. They do so in faith. But it isn't *required* that we go to church *every Sunday.*

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    Lie to me! I always pray before meals and have found it necessary.
    I'm sure there is a time when you haven't prayed before a single meal! It isn't so necessary that you dare not miss a prayer before a meal!

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    Baptism today behind the four walls of your local church is not public and it doesn't require faith.
    Anything you do for the Lord is done in faith. It has nothing to do with it being public or private.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    Completely wrong, and the reason you do not understand what I am saying. If it wasn't necessary then you believe someone could have refused baptism, denied Christ before men, and still be saved. Is that what you believe, contrary to Jesus' words?
    No, the conditions for Salvation involve accepting Christ before men--not denying him!

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    Silly. 1/3 of the NT is the willingness to endure risk for the faith by faith.
    I'm not denying that Christianity involves risk. The risk is taken when you initially accept Christ for Salvation. Baptism is just an extension of that Faith. Faith does not require any more Risk than living by the life of Christ, as opposed to living by our carnal nature. The threat of persecution in an act of ritual Baptism does not require the imminent threat of persecution by unbelievers to render the act one of Faith!

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    Maybe we don't but they sure did. The sooner you start understanding scripture from a historical/cultural perspective the sooner you'll have understanding.

    The world doesn't know you accepted Christ because you were baptized, like it did in the bible. You getting this yet?

    Baptism faith? Huh? That makes no sense. You cannot say it did not take faith to be baptized in Jesus. Sorry. The risk was paramount. If your weren't willing to live the gospel you were not worthy of it.
    I can indeed say it requires Faith to be legitimately Water Baptized in Jesus. The Risk factor has nothing to do with having Faith.

    Accepting Faith from the inception of Salvation has its own Risk Factor, and does not require any additional Risk Factors at Water Baptism in order to render it valid. It sounds very much like your idea of Faith must have a high level of "heroism" with it every time it is displayed in order for something to genuinely be done in Faith? My idea of Faith is something that is attained once, and continually held, without it having to be verified as "heroic" all the time.

  12. #237
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally Posted by Walls

    Let the Bible answer your question. Which sentence do you want? Take your pick.

    John 10:9 - I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

    Acts 2:21 - And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Acts 2:40 - And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

    Romans 8:24 - For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

    Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    1st Timothy 2:15 - Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

    1st Peter 3:21 - The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    John 4:22 - Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

    Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    Philippians 2:12 - Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    1st Peter 1:9 - Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (This is written in context of suffering trials)

    Based on your responses I am beginning to think that you are not serious. You have brushed aside quite some explanations.

    I'm very serious. My point based on scripture, to be saved... "you have to believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved..."

    You're posts are saying... "you have to believe in Jesus Christ AND have a man baptize you, and you will be saved..."

    Here is the one you forgot also

    Acts 16:30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

    So which is the correct answer?

    Believe and you are save or Believe AND have a man baptize you, and then you are saved?

    Now, more seriousness. The question was: Tell me, if someone came up to you and asked, "what must I do to be saved?" How would you answer this in a single sentence?

    Would you actually quote to someone who is lost, maybe has never touched a Bible and say to them a bunch of scriptures like you did me? Do you truly think you would be helping them?

    Instead, wouldn't it be easier to be as humble and honest as possible and say: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved?"

    I feel that the simple answer is the best and THEN when they allow you to continue in discussion, begin to show them scriptures while you are witnessing Jesus Christ. Maybe, right there on the street, someone will declare their belief and right there on the street, Jesus Christ will save them. Discipleship follows and this is where action is evidence that one is alive in Christ and baptism IS the first step in abiding. Not necessary FOR salvation, but the most important action of abiding as one is sanctified.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  13. #238
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally Posted by Walls
    It is a most interesting phenomena that I have repeatedly said, and shown, that dead men do not go to heaven, and yet you brush that aside without comment. If it is such a mainstay of your religion, why, just post four or so verses that plainly state that the dead go to heaven, and I will desist. After all, we are all students of the Bible and such a beloved and important doctrine must be well documented in both Testaments.

    As to what the leadership of the Church should say in a case like you have proposed, why, you have withheld crucial information. Was there water enough there to Immerse the person? Who refused the immersion - leadership, or the new convert? For what reason? The one who refused Immersion must take the responsibility. But your question is probably moot, for I showed a number of requirements (with supporting scriptures) for ENTRY into the Kingdom when Christ sets it up on earth when He returns. And a person who is converted and dies within an hour is no different to the thief on the cross next to Jesus. We seem to be running in a circle.
    Walls, belief in Christ makes the believer alive in Christ AND abiding is EVIDENCE (keeps) that a person is alive in Christ... baptism is done as part of the "abiding" in Christ, not the to be saved part.

    Believe and one is saved in Christ. Then another man can baptize the born-again brethren, which is part of abiding, not saving. Meaning, baptism comes AFTER one HAS been saved in Christ.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I'm very serious. My point based on scripture, to be saved... "you have to believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved..."

    You're posts are saying... "you have to believe in Jesus Christ AND have a man baptize you, and you will be saved..."

    Here is the one you forgot also

    Acts 16:30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

    So which is the correct answer?

    Believe and you are save or Believe AND have a man baptize you, and then you are saved?

    Now, more seriousness. The question was: Tell me, if someone came up to you and asked, "what must I do to be saved?" How would you answer this in a single sentence?

    Would you actually quote to someone who is lost, maybe has never touched a Bible and say to them a bunch of scriptures like you did me? Do you truly think you would be helping them?

    Instead, wouldn't it be easier to be as humble and honest as possible and say: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved?"

    I feel that the simple answer is the best and THEN when they allow you to continue in discussion, begin to show them scriptures while you are witnessing Jesus Christ. Maybe, right there on the street, someone will declare their belief and right there on the street, Jesus Christ will save them. Discipleship follows and this is where action is evidence that one is alive in Christ and baptism IS the first step in abiding. Not necessary FOR salvation, but the most important action of abiding as one is sanctified.
    "Your posts are saying .... ." But if you go through them I don't say that. You WANT me to say what you want. I have just listed a series of verses saying how one must be saved AND YOU WANT TO IGNORE ALL BUT TWO. I specially listed all these, and you are correct, there are more, to see how serious you were about scripture. But they don't suite you, so you write them off. One is as valid as the other. I did not write them. The Holy Spirit wrote them. Do they not ALL show how to be saved? You see my brother, you want what you want to the exclusion of all else. But the Bible isn't just one verse.

    I challenged you to show me dead men going to heaven, and you just brushed it off. I show you nearly a dozen verses that show how one is saved and you just brush eight of them off. You see, your theology is called into question - Not mine.

    But I will be honest with you, I posted those verses with one thing in mind. There is only one way around all those verses. You have to DEFINE "Salvation" in the Bible. And when you start to do that you will find that there are multiple definitions of "salvation". Being "saved" FROM water by the Ark is DIFFERENT to being "saved" BY water for the conscience. And a man might be "saved" from the Lake of Fire but if he is NOT resurrected he is NOT SAVED from DEATH. And so it is with Baptism. John 3:5 says that a man CANNOT ENTER the kingdom unless he is both born out from the Spirit AND born out from water. And the disciples, having been taught by Jesus, said that NOT ENTERING the Kingdom is NOT BEING SAVED. So you have knuckle down and define "salvation" in every case. And the one case you propose is "going to heaven when you die" - and you can't even find a verse for it!

    Brother, for you I will list them again
    1. By the LIGHT of the Holy Spirit a man is convicted of sins and judgement and he is saved from blindness
    2. By FAITH in Jesus, which is a gift from God, a man's sins are put away and he is saved from God's wrath - the Lake of Fire
    3. By FAITH in Jesus, which is a gift from God, a man is BORN AGAIN and he is saved from his old human nature
    4. By FAITH, which is a gift from God, a man becomes a SON of GOD and he becomes an HEIR
    5. By FAITH, which is a gift of God, a man receives ETERNAL LIFE and he is saved from from his inability to be in the image of Christ

    By OBEDIENCE, which is up to the saint, he calls for Baptism, and is,
    • SAVED from his past (Josh.24:2, 14; 1st Cor.10:1-2, 6, 11). All those called by God must pass through water
    • SAVED from being cut off from his INHERITANCE. Baptism is the new circumcision - vital for Abraham's seed (Gal.3:29; Col.2:11-12)
    • SAVED by being allowed into the Millennial Kingdom (Matt.7:21, 19:23-25,; Jn.3:5)
    • SAVED from a bad conscience (1st Pet.3:20)
    • SAVED from a resurrection in which he is not LIKE Christ (Rom.6:4-5)
    • SAVED from having to use his own POWER for service to the Lord and is endued with the Holy Spirit (Act.2:38)

    This might take more than a minute to tell an aspiring believer, but not much more. Included in the above is the gospel of GRACE, and the gospel of the KINGDOM. Man is made FROM the earth, is nourished BY the earth, and is FOR THE EARTH (Gen.1:26-28). Saying that a man is saved only if he goes to heaven when he dies is a FALSE GOSPEL. There is no verse in the whole Bible for this gospel. It might sound good, and it might be well received, but it has no foundation. You bring people to the Lord with the TRUTH, not with juicy lies. The Holy Spirit is doing a work in every man who turns to Jesus. Trust Him. You only have to TELL of the way out, SO TELL THE TRUTH.

    If you don't agree with this, then please, don't duck it. Address it. Give us all a well laid out exegesis with scripture to show the TRUTH. We wait with anticipation.

    Go well brother.

  15. #240
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally Posted by Walls

    "Your posts are saying .... ." But if you go through them I don't say that. You WANT me to say what you want. I have just listed a series of verses saying how one must be saved AND YOU WANT TO IGNORE ALL BUT TWO. I specially listed all these, and you are correct, there are more, to see how serious you were about scripture. But they don't suite you, so you write them off. One is as valid as the other. I did not write them. The Holy Spirit wrote them. Do they not ALL show how to be saved? You see my brother, you want what you want to the exclusion of all else. But the Bible isn't just one verse.

    I challenged you to show me dead men going to heaven, and you just brushed it off. I show you nearly a dozen verses that show how one is saved and you just brush eight of them off. You see, your theology is called into question - Not mine.

    But I will be honest with you, I posted those verses with one thing in mind. There is only one way around all those verses. You have to DEFINE "Salvation" in the Bible. And when you start to do that you will find that there are multiple definitions of "salvation". Being "saved" FROM water by the Ark is DIFFERENT to being "saved" BY water for the conscience. And a man might be "saved" from the Lake of Fire but if he is NOT resurrected he is NOT SAVED from DEATH. And so it is with Baptism. John 3:5 says that a man CANNOT ENTER the kingdom unless he is both born out from the Spirit AND born out from water. And the disciples, having been taught by Jesus, said that NOT ENTERING the Kingdom is NOT BEING SAVED. So you have knuckle down and define "salvation" in every case. And the one case you propose is "going to heaven when you die" - and you can't even find a verse for it!

    Brother, for you I will list them again


    1. By the LIGHT of the Holy Spirit a man is convicted of sins and judgement and he is saved from blindness
    2. By FAITH in Jesus, which is a gift from God, a man's sins are put away and he is saved from God's wrath - the Lake of Fire
    3. By FAITH in Jesus, which is a gift from God, a man is BORN AGAIN and he is saved from his old human nature
    4. By FAITH, which is a gift from God, a man becomes a SON of GOD and he becomes an HEIR
    5. By FAITH, which is a gift of God, a man receives ETERNAL LIFE and he is saved from from his inability to be in the image of Christ



    By OBEDIENCE, which is up to the saint, he calls for Baptism, and is,


    • SAVED from his past (Josh.24:2, 14; 1st Cor.10:1-2, 6, 11). All those called by God must pass through water
    • SAVED from being cut off from his INHERITANCE. Baptism is the new circumcision - vital for Abraham's seed (Gal.3:29; Col.2:11-12)
    • SAVED by being allowed into the Millennial Kingdom (Matt.7:21, 19:23-25,; Jn.3:5)
    • SAVED from a bad conscience (1st Pet.3:20)
    • SAVED from a resurrection in which he is not LIKE Christ (Rom.6:4-5)
    • SAVED from having to use his own POWER for service to the Lord and is endued with the Holy Spirit (Act.2:38)



    This might take more than a minute to tell an aspiring believer, but not much more. Included in the above is the gospel of GRACE, and the gospel of the KINGDOM. Man is made FROM the earth, is nourished BY the earth, and is FOR THE EARTH (Gen.1:26-28). Saying that a man is saved only if he goes to heaven when he dies is a FALSE GOSPEL. There is no verse in the whole Bible for this gospel. It might sound good, and it might be well received, but it has no foundation. You bring people to the Lord with the TRUTH, not with juicy lies. The Holy Spirit is doing a work in every man who turns to Jesus. Trust Him. You only have to TELL of the way out, SO TELL THE TRUTH.

    If you don't agree with this, then please, don't duck it. Address it. Give us all a well laid out exegesis with scripture to show the TRUTH. We wait with anticipation.

    Go well brother.
    Walls, have you ever witnessed to the lost, on the streets of some town or city?

    Now for some addressing, the One Baptism (you once raised), I will assume is what you are posting about in the listing under "By OBEDIENCE," is this One Baptism that accomplished all the "SAVED," portion of the list, is this spiritual in nature, or physical in nature? (serious question)
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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