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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #571
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Brother, part of your post here is eisegesis in nature. Yes, Cornelius (and family/friends) feared God but there is an element about salvation that is prominent. HEARING! So two elements of salvation were missing in these Gentiles lives, 1) Hearing the Gospel and 2) the Holy Spirit.

    They received BOTH and this was the evidence that Peter needed (but there is more in these two needs) that the Gentiles before him HAD BEEN SAVED by Christ. The other need was God's need to PROVE to the Jews, specifically Peter, they salvation was ALSO for the Gentiles. Once Peter witnessed what the Holy Spirit was doing INSIDE of them as tongues manifested, OUTSIDE of them... a gifting given ONLY to people who are MEMBERS of the Body and who are SEALED by, the Holy Spirit. Once Peter witnessed this, then he knew he also needed to help them with their first good work of faith.

    Brother, if Peter never water baptized them, those Gentiles would still be saved because the evidence that the Holy Spirit made them Born-again, is evident to even you and I. If Peter never baptized them, the Holy Spirit would NOT leave them and render them, UN-Born-again.

    Just as man can't save a un-saved person by baptizing an un-saved person in water, man can't un-save a saved person by not baptizing a saved person.
    You're exactly right. It was the falling of the Spirit upon Cornelius and his friends that indicated Salvation has come upon the Gentiles, and not just upon the Jews. It was not the act of Water Baptism that indicated this, but rather, the falling of the Holy Spirit upon them. Therefore, it was not Water Baptism, but rather, the falling of the Holy Spirit upon them, that indicated they had been Saved.

    Salvation was thus made manifest to be available both to the Jews and to the Gentiles. Water Baptism was an appendage to this. It was just an initiation rite Jesus designed to enable the new believer to express his faith in a public confession.

    It was important, but not integral to Salvation. It *typified* Salvation, but did not produce it. It is *Spirit Baptism* that matters--not Water Baptism.

    Water Baptism is indeed valuable as a confession sanctioned, and in fact, ordered by God to Jesus' apostles. But we need to dissect things properly.

  2. #572
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    We are saved by grace through faith, correct? So what is faith? Is it simply another word for belief, an internal, invisible, personal thing that requires no outside evidence? Or is faith something completely different? I believe that the Bible tells us it is much more than belief. But the Bible also sums it up as "belief" frequently, because belief without faith is non-belief. So what is faith?

    Heb 11:1 says, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Thus faith is something tangible. Faith also must be active to be alive, because "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17). Faith encompasses obedience. "Without faith it is impossible to please Him." and "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Baptism is simply the first act of faith that we take, and it is through faith that we are saved. Not through belief, not through understanding, through faith: through obedience. Thus through baptism we are saved.
    I completely agree. Nice one.

  3. #573
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Would people who chose to be baptized, but not because of faith but only because they want to be part of their friends/community who are baptized or being baptized, be baptized again if they truly would come to faith?
    I would think not. I believe that if such a person eventually truly comes to faith, he will receive the indwelling Holy Spirit thereby negating the need to be dipped in water again.

  4. #574
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    They were filled with the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit, just as the Apostles were on Pentecost, but they were not saved at that point. Even those who think that we are saved when we believe can't think that Cornelius was saved when the Spirit came on him, because he had not yet believed, repented, or confessed the Name of Christ. He did not yet know what to believe because he had not heard the Gospel preached.

    Acts 11:15 - "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning."
    On the contrary, no one can receive the Holy Spirit without believing in God first. John 14:17 says the world [unbelivers] cannot receive it. Looks like your understanding of "belief, repentance and confessing Christ" needs a little tweaking to bring it up to date. You said that Cornelius had not heard the Gospel hitherto, so I'm glad you cited Acts 11:15. What do you reckon Peter was speaking to him about, surely, not the weather or current affairs?

    To understand that Cornelius was saved BEFORE the Holy Spirit fell on him, let's go back a little bit.

    Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

    3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
    4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.


    From the above, we learn that:

    1. He was a devout/righteous man.
    2. God sent an angel not to condemn him of sin, but to exhort and confirm that his relationship with God is acceptable and approved.

    With this background, what happened in chapt 11 was ergo, a foregone conclusion, more like a seal on what is already approved and ordained.

  5. #575

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    As I was teaching a series on 1Cor 10 at our mid-week service, Baptism was touched on, and I believe God revealed to me the importance of baptism and a deeper meaning of this action in our lives.

    A bit of my notes from that study -

    “Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.” - 1Cor 10:1-2 NKJV

    I believe this is important to look at. Oddly, baptism - although widely taught by Jesus, John & the Apostles (including Paul) - is still misunderstood in the churches today. Great arguments often arise among the saints as to its place in salvation. This topic deserves an in-depth lengthy study on its own; but let us look briefly at baptism here, as Paul equates what Israel experienced in the Exodus at the Red Sea with our own personal journey from darkness to Light.

    On the Day of Pentecost, after the disciples had been visited and empowered by the Holy Spirit, Peter spoke to the masses who had gathered in Jerusalem for the feast.

    “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
    – Acts 2:36-39 NKJV

    This word – from what some have called the first Christian sermon - was preached by the Apostle Peter on that first Pentecost after the death and Resurrection of the Messiah. He preached repentance and baptism to all and any who would desire to have the salvation and new life that these men had found in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    “And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.”
    – Acts 2:40-41 NKJV

    Whenever a soul was brought to the knowledge of Christ Jesus in the New Testament there was always a water baptism. (John 4:1-2, Acts 2:41, 8:12, 8:36-38, 10:47-48, 16:14-15, 16:32-34, 19:4-5).

    The rest of this part of the Study can be found here -

    https://to-him-who-overcomes.com/ent...art-5--baptism

    Peace & Blessings,
    Michael

  6. #576
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael (limmuwd) View Post
    As I was teaching a series on 1Cor 10 at our mid-week service, Baptism was touched on, and I believe God revealed to me the importance of baptism and a deeper meaning of this action in our lives.

    A bit of my notes from that study -

    “Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.” - 1Cor 10:1-2 NKJV

    I believe this is important to look at. Oddly, baptism - although widely taught by Jesus, John & the Apostles (including Paul) - is still misunderstood in the churches today. Great arguments often arise among the saints as to its place in salvation. This topic deserves an in-depth lengthy study on its own; but let us look briefly at baptism here, as Paul equates what Israel experienced in the Exodus at the Red Sea with our own personal journey from darkness to Light.

    On the Day of Pentecost, after the disciples had been visited and empowered by the Holy Spirit, Peter spoke to the masses who had gathered in Jerusalem for the feast.

    “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
    – Acts 2:36-39 NKJV

    This word – from what some have called the first Christian sermon - was preached by the Apostle Peter on that first Pentecost after the death and Resurrection of the Messiah. He preached repentance and baptism to all and any who would desire to have the salvation and new life that these men had found in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    “And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.”
    – Acts 2:40-41 NKJV

    Whenever a soul was brought to the knowledge of Christ Jesus in the New Testament there was always a water baptism. (John 4:1-2, Acts 2:41, 8:12, 8:36-38, 10:47-48, 16:14-15, 16:32-34, 19:4-5).

    The rest of this part of the Study can be found here -

    https://to-him-who-overcomes.com/ent...art-5--baptism

    Peace & Blessings,
    Michael
    Please note, Michael, that this message was directed at Jews who needed to "repent." What about those who didn't need to repent, who had been walking with God?

    I'm not talking about sinless perfection, of course. I'm just saying that there are obedient believers and the disobedient, whether believers or unbelievers.

    Peter was speaking to those who had been under the Law in a state of disobedience. Water Baptism was for them, and not for all Israel--just like John the Baptist baptized those who wanted to repent of their sins, and not those who had been living relatively righteous lives.

    I have no knowledge that Jesus' disciples were water baptized, or that righteous men and women in Israel were baptized. Those who were baptized on the Day of Pentecost were clearly those who had not followed Jesus, or who had not been living in conformity to the Law.

    Water Baptism is a religious ritual that had value to Jesus in the New Testament era. But it did not contradict the importance of actual Salvation over and above the act that the novice performed to verify that decision.

    As Paul wrote, "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

    The importance of Water Baptism to Jesus was likely, therefore, the confession that followed the Salvation commitment. It was an act of determination to continue in the faith, sacrificing any future choice for independence from Christ.

    The one glaring error Adam and Eve made was in deciding to opt for the right to choose independent from the Lord at times. Water Baptism is a commitment to forego that choice in the future, to preserve the Salvation experience for all time.

    I don't think, therefore, that Jesus' purpose was to enforce Water Baptism as the standard for all Christian conversions. The important thing was the commitment, which requires a public confession.

    But certainly, those who were raised up in the church, living a life of commitment to the Lord, do not need Water Baptism--not even if they temporarily fall away and return to righteous living.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I would think not. I believe that if such a person eventually truly comes to faith, he will receive the indwelling Holy Spirit thereby negating the need to be dipped in water again.
    Then why the insistence that people needs to be baptized if they were baptized as a child?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I would think not. I believe that if such a person eventually truly comes to faith, he will receive the indwelling Holy Spirit thereby negating the need to be dipped in water again.
    Then why the insistence that people needs to be baptized if they were baptized as a child?

  8. #578
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Then why the insistence that people needs to be baptized if they were baptized as a child?
    Baptism is an identifying mark of a BELIEVER. Or , someone who has professed Christ. Christ's example was by full immersion, not sprinkling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Then why the insistence that people needs to be baptized if they were baptized as a child?
    Baptism is an identifying mark of a BELIEVER. Or , someone who has professed Christ. Christ's example was by full immersion, not sprinkling.

  9. #579
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Then why the insistence that people needs to be baptized if they were baptized as a child?
    Unless I am mistaken, only the RC Church "insists" on infant baptism, meaning that those without a Catholic background probably didn't receive infant baptism. Therefore, it is required of them to be baptized after coming to faith.


    Then why the insistence that people needs to be baptized if they were baptized as a child?[/QUOTE]

  10. #580
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Baptism is an identifying mark of a BELIEVER. Or , someone who has professed Christ. Christ's example was by full immersion, not sprinkling.



    Baptism is an identifying mark of a BELIEVER. Or , someone who has professed Christ. Christ's example was by full immersion, not sprinkling.
    Baptism is a sign of the new covenant, a covenant that includes children.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Unless I am mistaken, only the RC Church "insists" on infant baptism, meaning that those without a Catholic background probably didn't receive infant baptism. Therefore, it is required of them to be baptized after coming to faith.


    Then why the insistence that people needs to be baptized if they were baptized as a child?
    [/QUOTE]

    Wrong, most reformed churches have infant baptism.

    Still according to the example I have given the person being baptized was not a believer and when he came to faith you said it was not necessary to be baptized again?

  12. #582
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Baptism is a sign of the new covenant, a covenant that includes children.
    Yes, when and if the new covenant is received.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Baptism is a sign of the new covenant, a covenant that includes children.
    Yes, when and if the new covenant is received.

    Or else it's simply a baby dedication.

    Or else it's simply a baby dedication.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Yes, when and if the new covenant is received.

    Or else it's simply a baby dedication.
    Who is the actor or active partner in making the covenant, God or man? If it is God then giving the sign to a child would be the right thing to do for it symbolizes God saying I want to be in covenant with you. If it would be man then it would not. I believe it is God.

    I do not see any worth in any baby dedication.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Who is the actor or active partner in making the covenant, God or man? If it is God then giving the sign to a child would be the right thing to do for it symbolizes God saying I want to be in covenant with you. If it would be man then it would not. I believe it is God.

    I do not see any worth in any baby dedication.
    Where in scripture were infants baptized ? Show me were it's even mentioned. I , as you full well know, can show you multiple examples of new believers being fully immersed. You can give me all of the hypothetical doctrine you want to Kali, but the bible clearly is silent on infant baptism, and clearly vocal on new believers being immersed.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Where in scripture were infants baptized ? Show me were it's even mentioned. I , as you full well know, can show you multiple examples of new believers being fully immersed. You can give me all of the hypothetical doctrine you want to Kali, but the bible clearly is silent on infant baptism, and clearly vocal on new believers being immersed.
    Where in Scripture was infants excluded of the sign of the covenant? If it was stopped would it not be clearly stated?

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