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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #1
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    How necessary Baptism?

    Baptism is a ritual, and only a symbolic demonstration of a Salvation we obtain *before* Water Baptism. Water Baptism symbolizes, as a public proclamation, the Spirit Baptism within.

    As such, Water Baptism is not an essential part of Salvation, but only a public confession, telling the world in which we lived that we are no longer living that way, but rather, living according to Christ. Water Baptism was not the essential thing. Inward change was the essential thing. Water Baptism was only an external testimony to the public that we had *already been saved.*

    Baptism is not necessary for salvation. Why did Jesus tell us to do it? It was a reasonable way to publicly proclaim our initiation into the Christian Faith. Jesus wanted us to not just declare our salvation--he wanted us to publicly declare it in an open ritual--not as if the ritual was necessary, but only as one means of showing the world our change of heart.


    Salvation has always been a matter of faith. If not, then all the people who ever lived before Christian Baptism are damned! But Christian Baptism is a testimony to the world of a different way of living that ensures Salvation, through faith in Christ and in a new way of life.


    Those who believe in Christ, and who demonstrate a new way of life, will be saved. This means that all those whose faith saved them, and make their Christianity a public proclamation through water baptism, will also be saved. This means that all those whose faith saved them, get baptized, and live a Christian life, as opposed to the ways of the world, will be saved.


    The ritual of Baptism is not a necessary ingredient in Salvation. It is just the recommended ritual Jesus advocated in his time, to testify to the world a message he wanted the world to hear. It was important in its time, due to the preparatory work John the Baptist had done, to promote repentance.


    Repentance is still an important precursor to embracing Christian Salvation. But Salvation comes not by Water Baptism, but rather, by Spirit Baptism, which is what Water Baptism represents. It is accepting Christ by faith, and by making the associated internal changes conducive to Christian living.

    Water Baptism is purely ritual--just one means of proclaiming our faith--and not necessary for Salvation. Christian Salvation is strictly internal and by faith. Once Christianity has been established in the heart by *Spirit Baptism,* then Christianity may be demonstrated outwardly in a variety of ways--by good works, by public testimonials, by baptism, by catechism, by going to Bible School, by participating in Christian forums. The important thing is that we have Christ living on the inside, and that we make that commitment permanent!

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    After we have been saved/born again water baptism is an act of obedience that illustrates the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and our death to sin and our old self and our new life in Christ.

    It's not just a suggestion that one should be baptized it was an ordinance that Christ Himself instituted for The Church.

    At the same time it is not a requirement for salvation. If one is imprisoned or oppressed and unable to be baptized can they not still come to Christ and be born again/saved? Of course they can!
    If any oppose this simple statement show me Scriptural proof - in context - that states otherwise.


    If one doesn't have any restrictions and can be freely baptized is there any excuse not to do it? Nope. No excuse whatsoever.

    Just my 2 cents worth.
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    My personal experience in baptism was that I was baptized at a young age after hearing about Jesus and then wanting to be saved. I genuinely felt God speak to me and draw me but there was no genuine surrender. I know this because as soon as I got old enough to do what I wanted to do, I did it. I was the poster boy for worldly living. Fast forward to my late 20's. I am a heavy drinker with a massive amount of issues, with pent up anger and resentment being one of them. I am married to a genuine believer who lives it and as we begin our family I know there is something that has to give in my life. I end up going to church with her and seeking the God that spoke to me in my childhood and then was saved.

    So here is the point. God made it abundantly clear to me that I should be baptized. My reaction ? What is everyone going to think ? I've already done that. It really doesn't save you etc. But then why does God keep telling me to do it ? I know now that I am genuinely saved, after all. So why should I do it ?

    Because God told me to through His word. ..So I did. When I was baptized God opened doors that otherwise would have stayed closed and there is no one on planet earth that could convince me otherwise. Did it save me ? No. Did it help in my sanctification ? Yes. I grew. I learned to put what other people think to the side and to simply obey.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    I genuinely respect the responses so far. Let me just reiterate that Baptism is a ritual that is supposed to *follow* a complete surrender to Christ. It is symbolic of our commitment to Christ, and is intended to show our Christian Family and the outside world that we are going in a new direction. Nothing about this saves us. It is just a recommended initiation ritual.

    Did Jesus tell his apostles to baptize? Yes. Did those same apostles tell future generations of the church to baptize? That is debatable.

    I personally think the teaching of Baptism was largely focused on the 1st generation of the church, with implications that it may apply in the future as well. Virtually all of the NT baptisms took place not in the future sense, but in the then-present apostolic sense in the 1st generation of the church.

    John the Baptist was focused on his own generation, preparing them for Christ through repentance. Water Baptism indicated that, and certainly was not a necessary act. It was a public declaration of change, from the corrupt practices of that generation to adopting true obedience to the Law.

    Far from promoting obedience under the Law, Christian Baptism promotes repentance following a failed system of Law, inviting repentance from all sin, whether failure under the Law or outright paganism. Future generations repent through Christ, but are "washing away sins" in a great variety of contexts.

    Baptism still works to show this public repentance. But it isn't essential, in my opinion. It is just advisable.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    I genuinely respect the responses so far. Let me just reiterate that Baptism is a ritual that is supposed to *follow* a complete surrender to Christ. It is symbolic of our commitment to Christ, and is intended to show our Christian Family and the outside world that we are going in a new direction. Nothing about this saves us. It is just a recommended initiation ritual.
    I would ask you to define what you mean by ritual ? I don't see it as such. I see Christ Himself being the example of it and also see the command from the apostles for those who have been saved to do so.

    Did Jesus tell his apostles to baptize? Yes. Did those same apostles tell future generations of the church to baptize? That is debatable.
    The Great Commission is not debatable. It's deniable, but not debatable.

    I personally think the teaching of Baptism was largely focused on the 1st generation of the church, with implications that it may apply in the future as well. Virtually all of the NT baptisms took place not in the future sense, but in the then-present apostolic sense in the 1st generation of the church.
    They set the example for the church to follow long after the first generation. My question would be "What changed" ? If baptism isn't applicable today then where, why , and how did the command change ?

    John the Baptist was focused on his own generation, preparing them for Christ through repentance. Water Baptism indicated that, and certainly was not a necessary act. It was a public declaration of change, from the corrupt practices of that generation to adopting true obedience to the Law.
    Yes ? But this doesn't negate baptism for us today. In fact , it should reinforce it.
    Far from promoting obedience under the Law, Christian Baptism promotes repentance following a failed system of Law, inviting repentance from all sin, whether failure under the Law or outright paganism. Future generations repent through Christ, but are "washing away sins" in a great variety of contexts.
    Baptism is not only representative of washing of sins, it's also identification with Christ and his body.

    Baptism still works to show this public repentance. But it isn't essential, in my opinion. It is just advisable.
    A lot of things aren't essential, but advisable. No , it doesn't save. But my question to someone who is not fearing for their lives due to persecution would be .... Why not ? Christ set the example - the apostles followed it and so should we.

  6. #6

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Baptism is a ritual, and only a symbolic demonstration of a Salvation we obtain *before* Water Baptism. Water Baptism symbolizes, as a public proclamation, the Spirit Baptism within.

    As such, Water Baptism is not an essential part of Salvation, but only a public confession, telling the world in which we lived that we are no longer living that way, but rather, living according to Christ. Water Baptism was not the essential thing. Inward change was the essential thing. Water Baptism was only an external testimony to the public that we had *already been saved.*

    Baptism is not necessary for salvation. Why did Jesus tell us to do it? It was a reasonable way to publicly proclaim our initiation into the Christian Faith. Jesus wanted us to not just declare our salvation--he wanted us to publicly declare it in an open ritual--not as if the ritual was necessary, but only as one means of showing the world our change of heart.


    Salvation has always been a matter of faith. If not, then all the people who ever lived before Christian Baptism are damned! But Christian Baptism is a testimony to the world of a different way of living that ensures Salvation, through faith in Christ and in a new way of life.


    Those who believe in Christ, and who demonstrate a new way of life, will be saved. This means that all those whose faith saved them, and make their Christianity a public proclamation through water baptism, will also be saved. This means that all those whose faith saved them, get baptized, and live a Christian life, as opposed to the ways of the world, will be saved.


    The ritual of Baptism is not a necessary ingredient in Salvation. It is just the recommended ritual Jesus advocated in his time, to testify to the world a message he wanted the world to hear. It was important in its time, due to the preparatory work John the Baptist had done, to promote repentance.


    Repentance is still an important precursor to embracing Christian Salvation. But Salvation comes not by Water Baptism, but rather, by Spirit Baptism, which is what Water Baptism represents. It is accepting Christ by faith, and by making the associated internal changes conducive to Christian living.

    Water Baptism is purely ritual--just one means of proclaiming our faith--and not necessary for Salvation. Christian Salvation is strictly internal and by faith. Once Christianity has been established in the heart by *Spirit Baptism,* then Christianity may be demonstrated outwardly in a variety of ways--by good works, by public testimonials, by baptism, by catechism, by going to Bible School, by participating in Christian forums. The important thing is that we have Christ living on the inside, and that we make that commitment permanent!
    You should make the point that this is your opinion , and only your opinion and is not supported by any scripture in the bible though ....

  7. #7

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Baptism is a ritual, and only a symbolic demonstration of a Salvation we obtain *before* Water Baptism. Water Baptism symbolizes, as a public proclamation, the Spirit Baptism within.

    As such, Water Baptism is not an essential part of Salvation, but only a public confession, telling the world in which we lived that we are no longer living that way, but rather, living according to Christ. Water Baptism was not the essential thing. Inward change was the essential thing. Water Baptism was only an external testimony to the public that we had *already been saved.*

    Baptism is not necessary for salvation. Why did Jesus tell us to do it? It was a reasonable way to publicly proclaim our initiation into the Christian Faith. Jesus wanted us to not just declare our salvation--he wanted us to publicly declare it in an open ritual--not as if the ritual was necessary, but only as one means of showing the world our change of heart.


    Salvation has always been a matter of faith. If not, then all the people who ever lived before Christian Baptism are damned! But Christian Baptism is a testimony to the world of a different way of living that ensures Salvation, through faith in Christ and in a new way of life.


    Those who believe in Christ, and who demonstrate a new way of life, will be saved. This means that all those whose faith saved them, and make their Christianity a public proclamation through water baptism, will also be saved. This means that all those whose faith saved them, get baptized, and live a Christian life, as opposed to the ways of the world, will be saved.


    The ritual of Baptism is not a necessary ingredient in Salvation. It is just the recommended ritual Jesus advocated in his time, to testify to the world a message he wanted the world to hear. It was important in its time, due to the preparatory work John the Baptist had done, to promote repentance.


    Repentance is still an important precursor to embracing Christian Salvation. But Salvation comes not by Water Baptism, but rather, by Spirit Baptism, which is what Water Baptism represents. It is accepting Christ by faith, and by making the associated internal changes conducive to Christian living.

    Water Baptism is purely ritual--just one means of proclaiming our faith--and not necessary for Salvation. Christian Salvation is strictly internal and by faith. Once Christianity has been established in the heart by *Spirit Baptism,* then Christianity may be demonstrated outwardly in a variety of ways--by good works, by public testimonials, by baptism, by catechism, by going to Bible School, by participating in Christian forums. The important thing is that we have Christ living on the inside, and that we make that commitment permanent!

    according to scripture , baptism has a very clear purpose . And nowhere is baptism explained to be a meaningless in necessary ritual ...only in your posts, doesn't this give you pause bro? Tht no one in scripture ever explained baptism to be irrelevant ? A meaningless mere ritual ? And here you are ....explaining that? Doesn't even make you wonder?

    Peter full of the Holy Ghost

    Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
    **Acts‬ *2:22-23, 32-33, 36-38‬ *KJV‬‬


    in case you aren't sure what remission means

    re·mis·sion
    /rəˈmiSH(ə)n/
    noun
    the cancellation of a debt, charge, or penalty."

    what remits sin? Jesus sacrifice only his death , only his shed blood remits a persons sins...

    For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
    **Matthew‬ *26:28‬ *KJV‬‬

    “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


    .baptism in water , what you are explaining is un necessary ....is for repentance , and the remission of sins because it baptized one into the death and burial of Jesus Christ , which remits sin . It's like somehow bro you have so much vast understanding that you can't see what's written

    Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

    that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
    **Romans‬ *6:3-4, 6-7‬ *KJV‬‬

    I'm not sure why you can't seem to accept the simplicity of it . or why you insist on opposing the scriptures that actually explain what baptism means , and that it is a basic principle of Christian doctrine ....I'm not sure Jesus is behind the message " baptism isn't important don't worry about it" seems he said " whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved " and " go into all the world and baptize them....consider bro your position.



    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.”
    **1 Peter‬ *3:18-22‬ *KJV‬‬


    do you see ? A believer does what they do , because God always says " you do this , and I will do this other thing"

    when a believer hears this " when you are baptized Jesus Christ said your sins are remitted " if they do then go get baptized , thier conscience is cleared because they believe the truth that God has remitted thier sins....it's a necessary act of faith taught straight forward in scripture , people should contrast your post with what the bible says about it so they don't get the wrong idea

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    We are going from one extreme to the other. From baptism is simply advisable, to baptism is necessary for salvation.

    It's important but it doesn't save.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I would ask you to define what you mean by ritual ? I don't see it as such. I see Christ Himself being the example of it and also see the command from the apostles for those who have been saved to do so.
    A religious act that is repeated in churches as part of the regular initiation ceremony for the novice. It was performed by a novice wanting recognition as a new member of the Christian community and signaling to the outside world of that intent. That's exactly what it is. Christ performed it as part of the ritual initiated by John the Baptist, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Thus, Christ sanctioned the call of John the Baptist, particularly as his advance messenger, and embraced his ceremonies of Baptism as a legitimate means of identifying the penitents in Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum
    The Great Commission is not debatable. It's deniable, but not debatable.
    Who's debating the Great Commission? What is "debatable" is whether Jesus advocated Baptism as an everlasting, or continuing, practice as an essential part of salvation rituals. Two of Protestantism's salvation rituals, or sacraments, are Communion and Baptism--not in that order. I don't consider any of the Sacraments an essential part of Salvation. They were certainly practiced in Jesus' generation, at the founding of the Jewish Church, and in the initial generation in which the apostles founded the Gentile Church. But it is *debatable* whether Jesus meant Baptism to continue on as a regular ritual in the history of the Church. It is debatable *to me.*

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum
    They set the example for the church to follow long after the first generation. My question would be "What changed" ? If baptism isn't applicable today then where, why , and how did the command change ?
    What changed about Baptism is that the instructions about Baptism applied to the 1st Generation, and not necessarily thereafter. It may have set a precedent, or not. It certainly has been practiced throughout Church History.

    And yet there has been historical debate over what the essentials of Salvation are, and whether they include the Sacraments. My conviction is that since Salvation does not require any rituals associated with Christianity, including Communion and Baptism, it is a matter of personal choice as to whether they are engaged in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum
    Yes ? But this doesn't negate baptism for us today. In fact , it should reinforce it.
    No, the fact John the Baptist ministered what we call "John's Baptism" only in a single generation indicates that a baptismal ministry may have relevance only for the current generation. On the same token, Christian Baptism may have been applied in the 1st generation of the Church only as symbolic of Spirit Baptism, which in my theology is spiritual conversion, or Salvation. (Note: as a Pentecostal with differences of opinion, I do *not* see Spirit Baptism as a 2nd or 3rd act of Grace, but rather, as genuine spiritual conversion, as opposed to strictly intellectual assent to the Gospel.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum
    Baptism is not only representative of washing of sins, it's also identification with Christ and his body.
    Exactly, it *represents* these things symbolically. Water Baptism symbolizes Spirit Baptism. It is Sprit Baptism that washes away sins when we are spiritually identified with and united with Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum
    A lot of things aren't essential, but advisable. No , it doesn't save. But my question to someone who is not fearing for their lives due to persecution would be .... Why not ? Christ set the example - the apostles followed it and so should we.
    I don't have a problem with Baptism, in history or now. It's a good practice. The only concern I have is when people think the ritual is supposed to be something magical, with the Spirit descending on them to gift them spiritual gifts. The act of Baptism is itself an act of consecration, and a public confession. It is the express determination to follow Christ, and not the world. We receive Christ spiritually at Salvation, and not at Baptism. There is no magic to the ritual. It is a public statement--that's all! It has nothing to do with Salvation itself.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    You should make the point that this is your opinion , and only your opinion and is not supported by any scripture in the bible though ....
    Of course this is just my opinion, brother. We are now discussing Christian opinions among Christians. I realize how "non-Christian" it may sound to question Christian Tradition as long-practiced as Baptism. But think about what Jesus did to Jewish traditions?

    Anyway, I'm not against Baptism. I'm just using one Sacrament to make a point about the relationship of *all Sacraments* to Salvation. Salvation requires only faith to embrace Christ as one's new life. Sacraments can serve a good purpose, but not a *required* purpose. Any time we get into *requiring* things like rituals for Salvation, we get into trouble, and confuse the Gospel with ritual. It is and always will be *Christ* himself in our heart that brings us a new life and Salvation. External rituals have nothing to do with that, and must not be confused with that.

    There are *tons of Scriptures* indicating the importance of *Christ alone* being our Salvation. Martin Luther made his fame off of "Faith Alone" being our Salvation. There are tons of evidence that we should not confuse Salvation by Faith with required Works, such as existed under the Law and its rituals. The Gnostics also required rituals at times.

    Col 2.20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Randy,

    I love you brother so please don't these questions in the wrong way.

    “Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

    What part of Matthew 28: 19-20 says that baptism was only for the 1st generation or only applied to them?
    As far as that goes, is there any Scripture that even suggests that baptism was only for the 1st generation?

    I would suggest that by Christ's own word's The Church has received not just the responsibility but the command to

    1. Make disciples of all nations.
    2. Baptize them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
    3. Teach them to obey all that He commanded/taught.

    If baptism were merely a symbol for the 1st generation why would Christ command that the church baptize or make no mention of "baptize until..."

    Please bear in mind that these are questions that arose in me when reading your posts. They aren't intended as an attack or accusation and they are certainly not intended to insult or offend.
    Day by day
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Baptism still works to show this public repentance. But it isn't essential, in my opinion. It is just advisable.
    Found a topic we can agree on Randy.

    I think someone who is saved and reads about baptism should at least feel that they would want to participate in that ritual. But it is just a ritual, like the Lord's Supper, and not a law placed over us as if it came from Leviticus. The importance is pointing to the spiritual reality (cleansing of sins, or for LS the crucifixion) ... which the ritual should never overshadow.

    The question I would have for someone or a church who doesn't practice baptism or LS would be, why not? They are both very simple and can be done just about anywhere on the planet as a way for Christians to identify themselves with the 1st century Christians and the apostles. I think they were instituted as easy reminders for us. Such as, "this day" is when I was saved or I remember Christ's sacrifice every time I do "this." So why would a Christian not want these indicators?

    But yep, definitely not essential to salvation, and can lead to issues when viewed wrongly. Ex:

    I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name (1 Corinthians 1:14)

    Yet, it's a Biblical outlet/expression of our salvation and joy:

    “Look, here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?” (Acts 8:36)
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Randy,

    I love you brother so please don't these questions in the wrong way.

    “Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

    What part of Matthew 28: 19-20 says that baptism was only for the 1st generation or only applied to them?
    As far as that goes, is there any Scripture that even suggests that baptism was only for the 1st generation?

    I would suggest that by Christ's own word's The Church has received not just the responsibility but the command to

    1. Make disciples of all nations.
    2. Baptize them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
    3. Teach them to obey all that He commanded/taught.

    If baptism were merely a symbol for the 1st generation why would Christ command that the church baptize or make no mention of "baptize until..."

    Please bear in mind that these are questions that arose in me when reading your posts. They aren't intended as an attack or accusation and they are certainly not intended to insult or offend.
    Not a problem, Brian. I've come to love and respect all of your comments/questions. My response is 2-fold. 1) You may be perfectly right, that the Great Commission was given with Jesus' insight into the future of Christianity, setting forth a plan for *all generations* to do the things you mentioned, to bring about faith, baptism, and salvation.

    But 2) it's also possible that Jesus, being divine, deliberately avoided make it unmistakable that this was for all generations by directing his comments specifically to his apostles, and not to future generations of Christian leaders.

    I've taken the #2 position basically because of my Lutheran upbringing and Protestant conviction that "Faith Alone" saves us, without the help of Sacraments. The Apostle Paul had to fight off the introduction of external ceremonies into the Church formula of "Christ alone." So I don't find it strange that my own belief of "Faith Alone without a necessity of the Sacraments" should be questioned. It is such a time-worn position that Baptism is the universal, historical practice of the Church.

    The reason I've made this decision is because I think the focus on Christ Alone is more critical than the ceremony of Baptism. And I've found that the expectation of mystical experience at baptismal ceremonies smacks of spiritualism in Christianity, and not true spirituality. In Christianity we cannot do certain rituals to get the Spirit to fall. Instead we obey God and then are anointed by the Spirit to enable us to do and speak with divine authority.

    Thanks for asking in such a gracious spirit. I don't have absolute certainty that I'm right. But I thought it was an interesting topic, that could yield either confirmation or correction. I'm still not sure. This is just my current conviction.

    In a nutshell, my focus, currently, is on *Spirit Baptism* instead of Water Baptism. Spirit Baptism is what truly Saves us, through our entry into Christ in a spiritual way. External rituals cannot cause this to take place. Only our response to God's word of Salvation can cause this to take place.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Found a topic we can agree on Randy.

    I think someone who is saved and reads about baptism should at least feel that they would want to participate in that ritual. But it is just a ritual, like the Lord's Supper, and not a law placed over us as if it came from Leviticus. The importance is pointing to the spiritual reality (cleansing of sins, or for LS the crucifixion) ... which the ritual should never overshadow.

    The question I would have for someone or a church who doesn't practice baptism or LS would be, why not? They are both very simple and can be done just about anywhere on the planet as a way for Christians to identify themselves with the 1st century Christians and the apostles. I think they were instituted as easy reminders for us. Such as, "this day" is when I was saved or I remember Christ's sacrifice every time I do "this." So why would a Christian not want these indicators?

    But yep, definitely not essential to salvation, and can lead to issues when viewed wrongly. Ex:

    I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name (1 Corinthians 1:14)

    Yet, it's a Biblical outlet/expression of our salvation and joy:

    “Look, here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?” (Acts 8:36)
    Eloquently put. I concur wholeheartedly.

  15. #15

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Baptism is a ritual, and only a symbolic demonstration of a Salvation we obtain *before* Water Baptism.
    Obviously Anglicans, Presbyterians, and other Reformed groups would disagree, saying that it's a sacrament, not just a ritual.

    And you also seem to be denying infant baptism, which Anglicans, Presbyterians, and other Reformed groups practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It is just the recommended ritual Jesus advocated in his time, to testify to the world a message he wanted the world to hear. It was important in its time, due to the preparatory work John the Baptist had done, to promote repentance.
    (1) you are downgrading a command of Christ to a mere "recommendation." That's denying His lordship.

    (2) you are implying baptism only applied in N.T. times, without the slightest shred of evidence. In fact, the Church has always baptised.

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