Page 35 of 39 FirstFirst ... 24252627282930313233343536373839 LastLast
Results 511 to 525 of 578

Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #511
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northeast Alabama
    Posts
    5,210

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Same answer. Was I condemned same as all in Adam? Yes. It was from this condemnation/death that I was saved by God's grace and mercy through faith in Christ. This predestined and elected by God before creation.
    So, at one point in time during your life you were condemned and dead in your trespasses ?

  2. #512
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Kalahari
    Posts
    5,972

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    So, at one point in time during your life you were condemned and dead in your trespasses ?
    I was condemned in Adam as all men are and therefore in need of being saved.
    In being an elect of God, His child by election, was I ever not His elect? No. The good Shepard will find all that are His.
    Did I know this since I was born? No. Because I did not does it make my election incomplete? No.
    By God's grace and mercy and the working of His Spirit He through time revealed this to me so I could come to repentance and faith, which were given to me, so I could accept that which was given me by God, namely salvation through faith in His Son by grace as predestined by God. So from God's perspective my salvation was complete in His election and love by His Son. From my perspective it was complete when I confessed Christ as my Saviour and Lord in faith.

    So without God's mercy and grace I would have been condemned as all men are, but now because of it I am an elect, a child of God.

  3. #513
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    425

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Cornelius and his household were saved, and filled with the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized. They even spoke in tongues before water baptism (immersion).

    God bless!
    They were filled with the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit, just as the Apostles were on Pentecost, but they were not saved at that point. Even those who think that we are saved when we believe can't think that Cornelius was saved when the Spirit came on him, because he had not yet believed, repented, or confessed the Name of Christ. He did not yet know what to believe because he had not heard the Gospel preached.

    Acts 11:15 - "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning."

  4. #514
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    425

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Because they are not still covered in sin. The only "work" is to believe - John 6 / 29 - Jesus told them " The work of God is this : to believe in the One He has sent". Nothing more.
    So Paul was not inspired by God to say that he was still in sin when Ananias spoke to him? Ananias had not heard from God the message he was to tell Saul, and Scripture is simply mistaken in Acts 22? Hmmm. I choose to believe Scripture. Saul was still in sin, and had not been washed clean until he obeyed the command of God through Ananias as described in the inspired defense he gave in Acts 22.

  5. #515
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northeast Alabama
    Posts
    5,210

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    I was condemned in Adam as all men are and therefore in need of being saved.
    In being an elect of God, His child by election, was I ever not His elect? No. The good Shepard will find all that are His.
    Did I know this since I was born? No. Because I did not does it make my election incomplete? No.
    By God's grace and mercy and the working of His Spirit He through time revealed this to me so I could come to repentance and faith, which were given to me, so I could accept that which was given me by God, namely salvation through faith in His Son by grace as predestined by God. So from God's perspective my salvation was complete in His election and love by His Son. From my perspective it was complete when I confessed Christ as my Saviour and Lord in faith.

    So without God's mercy and grace I would have been condemned as all men are, but now because of it I am an elect, a child of God.
    So you weren't under condemnation ?

  6. #516
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    425

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Doug, P just answered ya. In this post, I see a misunderstanding concerning the context of scripture.

    Christ's blood did ALL the work in cleansing a person of sin the moment/instant they believed unto Him. The references about sin and dirt is this: Internally a person who has believed unto Christ, Christ wipes all their sin away (they repented of their sin) in the action of justifying them, redeeming them, making them Born-Again. The believer is made NEW, spiritually they are clothed IN WHITE! But... physically, they are still

    As a Christian, the first action of faith is to be baptized in water and this is a representation (remember my post with the Greek term?) of Christ's wiping all sin away. The physical "dirt/filth" is symbolically utilized as a metaphor of the old-man and when one is baptized in water, this is symbolically representing the CLEANSING that Jesus accomplished when He redeemed the believer. As scripture says, the old-man is washed away (washing of sin). "MAN" who does the water baptism isn't actually washing away the old-man, "man" is not enabling Christ's blood to wash away sin. God the Father enabled His Son's blood for redemption in the moments of His death and resurrection. That is the Gospel message... Christ saves, HIS blood and when a person believes, they are washed CLEAN instantly and are reborn instantly.

    Man does not enable the blood through a baptism. A water baptism is a celebration OF the work that Jesus' Blood completed as we REENACT Christ's work on the cross.
    I agree that Christ's blood does all the work of redemption and washing away our sins. But Scripture, not me, puts the lie to your contention that it happens at the moment of belief. As I have pointed out many times, Scripture is very clear on when a person's sins are washed away, the new man begins, and we are "in Christ". There is no ambiguity in it. Baptism is not a bath, it does not remove physical dirt. Man has nothing to do with the working of baptism. God does the circumcising, washing, resurrecting, and cleansing in the water (not before).

    If belief were all that was required, then Matt 7:21-23 is meaningless.
    "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

    These people believe in Jesus, they call Him "Lord", they do wonders in His Name, but He doesn't know them. Belief is essential, but it is not the end of the path to salvation!

  7. #517
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Kalahari
    Posts
    5,972

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    So you weren't under condemnation ?
    In trying to answer you and believing we are talking pass each other, what does it means to be under condemnation and is it the same as being unsaved?

  8. #518
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northeast Alabama
    Posts
    5,210

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    I agree that Christ's blood does all the work of redemption and washing away our sins. But Scripture, not me, puts the lie to your contention that it happens at the moment of belief. As I have pointed out many times, Scripture is very clear on when a person's sins are washed away, the new man begins, and we are "in Christ". There is no ambiguity in it. Baptism is not a bath, it does not remove physical dirt. Man has nothing to do with the working of baptism. God does the circumcising, washing, resurrecting, and cleansing in the water (not before).

    If belief were all that was required, then Matt 7:21-23 is meaningless.
    "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

    These people believe in Jesus, they call Him "Lord", they do wonders in His Name, but He doesn't know them. Belief is essential, but it is not the end of the path to salvation!
    Can someone who's not had their sins washed away have the Holy Spirit ? Yes or no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    In trying to answer you and believing we are talking pass each other, what does it means to be under condemnation and is it the same as being unsaved?
    That's what it means.

  9. #519
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    425

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You said, "The only example of baptisms in Scripture are adults." And you have only used anecdotal evidence as proof that only adults are to be Saved, or Water Baptized. You have completely disregarded actual requirements to provide *theological evidence* for your beliefs, and choose instead to only provide accounts of these things happening.

    Nobody is denying that adult water baptisms happened, nor that it was common practice in the Early Church to engage in water baptism. Nobody is denying that Jesus sent his 11 apostles out to preach the Gospel, as well as to water baptize converts.

    But without theological proof, all of this is merely evidence that these things happened under certain conditions--just like the Pentecostal experience of speaking in tongues. These are anecdotal evidences that these things happened--not proof that they are necessary.

    So now you are changing your tune here. You used biblical evidences of how water baptism was used in the Early Church to prove it is necessary for Salvation. And then you used adult baptism to prove what that implies, that baptism should be for adults.

    But now you're saying that the fact only adults were baptized in the Early Church that this "usually" only takes place with adults. Why on earth, if children can be Saved and Baptized, would that not happen "usually?"
    What is the book of Acts? Is it not Scripture. Is it not then "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." Then how are these examples not doctrinal? The command of Peter on Pentecost is a prime example of a precedent setting instruction to all people who believe and want to know, "What shall I do?". The instruction to Saul in Damascus is a prime example of the timing of when our sins are washed away. The instruction in Col and Rom demonstrate the meaning and significance of baptism. Nothing could be further from the truth to say that these Scriptures are not theological proof and not just anecdotal events.

  10. #520
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Kalahari
    Posts
    5,972

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    So you weren't under condemnation ?
    Yes I was, but by grace I was saved.

    Was my salvation ever in doubt or risk? No.

  11. #521
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northeast Alabama
    Posts
    5,210

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Yes I was, but by grace I was saved.

    Was my salvation ever in doubt or risk? No.
    I just can't see how someone can claim lostness, and the bible is clear that we are lost without Christ. Then claim they were never in danger of being lost. Can you see how that isn't logical ?

  12. #522
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northeast Alabama
    Posts
    5,210

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    What is the book of Acts? Is it not Scripture. Is it not then "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." Then how are these examples not doctrinal? The command of Peter on Pentecost is a prime example of a precedent setting instruction to all people who believe and want to know, "What shall I do?". The instruction to Saul in Damascus is a prime example of the timing of when our sins are washed away. The instruction in Col and Rom demonstrate the meaning and significance of baptism. Nothing could be further from the truth to say that these Scriptures are not theological proof and not just anecdotal events.
    Can someone who hasn't had their sins washed away be filled with the Holy Spirit ? Yes or No ?

  13. #523
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Kalahari
    Posts
    5,972

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I just can't see how someone can claim lostness, and the bible is clear that we are lost without Christ. Then claim they were never in danger of being lost. Can you see how that isn't logical ?
    Were you dead in sin? Yes
    Were you saved by grace? Yes

    Were you part of sin? Yes
    Were you part of grace? No for if you did it would not be grace.

    So how could my salvation not be sure if it was the will of God? It was not because of me or the will of man, but of God. So I was lost, but by God I am being saved so why can't I have assurance of it for it is God? The logic is in God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I just can't see how someone can claim lostness, and the bible is clear that we are lost without Christ. Then claim they were never in danger of being lost. Can you see how that isn't logical ?
    Were you dead in sin? Yes
    Were you saved by grace? Yes

    Were you part of sin? Yes
    Were you part of grace? No for if you did it would not be grace.

    So how could my salvation not be sure if it was the will of God? It was not because of me or the will of man, but of God. So I was lost, but by God I am being saved so why can't I have assurance of it for it is God? The logic is in God.

  14. #524
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    425

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Can someone who's not had their sins washed away have the Holy Spirit ? Yes or no.
    There has only been one example of someone who's sins had not been washed away when the Spirit fell on them, and that was Cornelius. The purpose of the Spirit falling on him before his sins had been washed away is specified in Acts 11:17-18: to prove to Paul and the other Apostles that the Gentiles were eligible recipients of the Gospel message. This is the only time when someone who was not yet saved received the Spirit.

    Today, my answer to you would be, no, someone who has not had their sins washed away does not receive the Holy Spirit, because, as exemplified in Acts 2 and Acts 22, the Spirit is a gift received in or after baptism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Can someone who's not had their sins washed away have the Holy Spirit ? Yes or no.
    There has only been one example of someone who's sins had not been washed away when the Spirit fell on them, and that was Cornelius. The purpose of the Spirit falling on him before his sins had been washed away is specified in Acts 11:17-18: to prove to Paul and the other Apostles that the Gentiles were eligible recipients of the Gospel message. This is the only time when someone who was not yet saved received the Spirit.

    Today, my answer to you would be, no, someone who has not had their sins washed away does not receive the Holy Spirit, because, as exemplified in Acts 2 and Acts 22, the Spirit is a gift received in or after baptism.

  15. #525
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,472

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    What is the book of Acts? Is it not Scripture. Is it not then "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." Then how are these examples not doctrinal? The command of Peter on Pentecost is a prime example of a precedent setting instruction to all people who believe and want to know, "What shall I do?". The instruction to Saul in Damascus is a prime example of the timing of when our sins are washed away. The instruction in Col and Rom demonstrate the meaning and significance of baptism. Nothing could be further from the truth to say that these Scriptures are not theological proof and not just anecdotal events.
    You don't know the difference between anecdotal accounts and theological dogma? To answer your question, no, accounts of water baptism in the Early Church does *not* constitute doctrinal teaching. The fact the Jews were commonly depicted as the Chosen People in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John does not constitute doctrine that they were to remain God's exclusive nation throughout the NT period! But doctrine is when Paul said, "there is neither Jew nor Greek"--all of us in Christ Jesus are one.

    The fact water baptism was the exclusive introduction of Jews and Gentiles into the Christian family in the Early Church is not the same as a biblical passage, supposedly saying: all Christian novices *must* be water baptized, or Salvation does not take place without water baptism.

    There are several reasons to suppose that water baptism may have been less important than the Gospel to Paul. For one, over time Christians would start raising their children in the faith, and they would not need to convert to Christianity. No need for water baptism. Another reason: in some places, a person may have limited access to a bath, immediately after conversion. Sure, people always have water, but with water shortages, baptismal waters may be less desirable.

    Most importantly, water baptism was simply tagged onto John the Baptist's generational calling. There are many other ways for Christian novices to make "the good confession." What matters is "Spirit Baptism," according to John. And according to Peter, Water Baptism purely symbolizes this. The symbol is much less important than the reality it represents, which is Salvation itself.

    You need to study to know the difference between stating events took place and statements that state outright: Salvation = Water Baptism. Sorry, you can't prove anything simply by showing something happened regularly in the Bible! You need to provide a statement showing *it is necessary for Salvation.*

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Need Advice: Help regarding Baptism???
    By wendy-p-marshall in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: Dec 10th 2015, 07:24 PM
  2. Which is right in Baptism?
    By Sig Sauer in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: Dec 7th 2015, 07:32 PM
  3. Replies: 126
    Last Post: Jun 28th 2012, 02:42 PM
  4. Biblical Support for Infant Baptism/Adult Baptism?
    By TheAnswer99 in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: Mar 27th 2010, 04:11 AM
  5. Baptism
    By Soldier4Him in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 162
    Last Post: Jul 13th 2008, 07:18 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •