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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #526
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You don't know the difference between anecdotal accounts and theological dogma? To answer your question, no, accounts of water baptism in the Early Church does *not* constitute doctrinal teaching. The fact the Jews were commonly depicted as the Chosen People in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John does not constitute doctrine that they were to remain God's exclusive nation throughout the NT period! But doctrine is when Paul said, "there is neither Jew nor Greek"--all of us in Christ Jesus are one.

    The fact water baptism was the exclusive introduction of Jews and Gentiles into the Christian family in the Early Church is not the same as a biblical passage, supposedly saying: all Christian novices *must* be water baptized, or Salvation does not take place without water baptism.
    There are several reasons to suppose that water baptism may have been less important than the Gospel to Paul. For one, over time Christians would start raising their children in the faith, and they would not need to convert to Christianity. No need for water baptism. Another reason: in some places, a person may have limited access to a bath, immediately after conversion. Sure, people always have water, but with water shortages, baptismal waters may be less desirable.

    Most importantly, water baptism was simply tagged onto John the Baptist's generational calling. There are many other ways for Christian novices to make "the good confession." What matters is "Spirit Baptism," according to John. And according to Peter, Water Baptism purely symbolizes this. The symbol is much less important than the reality it represents, which is Salvation itself.

    You need to study to know the difference between stating events took place and statements that state outright: Salvation = Water Baptism. Sorry, you can't prove anything simply by showing something happened regularly in the Bible! You need to provide a statement showing *it is necessary for Salvation.*
    You want a simple, doctrinal statement from God Himself? Jesus said in Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved". Straight, to the point, and clearly commanded by God Himself. Nothing ambiguous, hard to understand, or vague about it. Do this and this and you will be saved. Don't and you won't. Period! "If you love Me, keep My commandments." and "Those who love Me keep My commandments." If you don't obey Him, then you don't love Him, and you aren't His.

  2. #527
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    You want a simple, doctrinal statement from God Himself? Jesus said in Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved". Straight, to the point, and clearly commanded by God Himself. Nothing ambiguous, hard to understand, or vague about it. Do this and this and you will be saved. Don't and you won't. Period! "If you love Me, keep My commandments." and "Those who love Me keep My commandments." If you don't obey Him, then you don't love Him, and you aren't His.
    Brother, you not only isolated a verse, but isolated only a portion of the verse... totally OUT of proper context.

    Here is some commentary that if you care to read, hopefully you will see the error that isolation of scripture, causes. If not you however, I pray any guest reader DOES study and is not caught up in your error.

    Biblehub's commentary for v16 He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/mark/16-16.htm
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  3. #528
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    You want a simple, doctrinal statement from God Himself? Jesus said in Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved". Straight, to the point, and clearly commanded by God Himself. Nothing ambiguous, hard to understand, or vague about it. Do this and this and you will be saved. Don't and you won't. Period! "If you love Me, keep My commandments." and "Those who love Me keep My commandments." If you don't obey Him, then you don't love Him, and you aren't His.
    Brother, you not only isolated a verse, but isolated only a portion of the verse... totally OUT of proper context.

    Here is some commentary that if you care to read, hopefully you will see the error that isolation of scripture, causes. If not you however, I pray any guest reader DOES study and is not caught up in your error.

    Biblehub's commentary for v16 He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/mark/16-16.htm
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  4. #529
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    You want a simple, doctrinal statement from God Himself? Jesus said in Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved". Straight, to the point, and clearly commanded by God Himself. Nothing ambiguous, hard to understand, or vague about it. Do this and this and you will be saved. Don't and you won't. Period! "If you love Me, keep My commandments." and "Those who love Me keep My commandments." If you don't obey Him, then you don't love Him, and you aren't His.
    You really need a class in logic. 100 people are told, if you believe in Jesus, and follow that choice up in water baptism, you will be saved. The water baptism means that the choice to believe in Jesus was a real choice--not that the act itself was necessary. Another 100 people could be told, give up your carnal lifestyle, repent, and follow Jesus, and you will be saved--nothing said at all about water baptism.

    The fact water baptism was practiced in the 1st generation of the church does not mean it was necessary for Salvation--only that if people believed in Jesus, and followed that up by an act expressing their sincerity, they would be saved.

    Rom 10.Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

    Why is the formula for Salvation lacking in any mention of Water Baptism?

  5. #530

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Can someone who's not had their sins washed away have the Holy Spirit ? Yes or no.
    This is a great question. Have you ever been in church and seen the spirit of God moving through the congregation? Notice that it does not discriminate. The spirit moves on both saved and unsaved. The tears that run down a sinners cheek. And how they are moved by the same spirit that moves the saved.

    Or else, how would a sinner ever be save without being moved by the Holy Ghost. It has often been said that the spirit of God moves from breast to breast.

    But one thing is a fact, it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a just God. The scripture below should cause all those who have tasted the spirit of God to take note:

    1 Corinthians 3
    16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

  6. #531

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You really need a class in logic. 100 people are told, if you believe in Jesus, and follow that choice up in water baptism, you will be saved. The water baptism means that the choice to believe in Jesus was a real choice--not that the act itself was necessary. Another 100 people could be told, give up your carnal lifestyle, repent, and follow Jesus, and you will be saved--nothing said at all about water baptism.

    The fact water baptism was practiced in the 1st generation of the church does not mean it was necessary for Salvation--only that if people believed in Jesus, and followed that up by an act expressing their sincerity, they would be saved.

    Rom 10.Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

    Why is the formula for Salvation lacking in any mention of Water Baptism?
    I think we need to consider that water baptism has nothing to do with being saved. Being born again is by grace and grace alone through our faith in Jesus. This is just not about believing that a man name Jesus lived. But that Jesus is the living Son of God. Before creation, was with God being eternal. Meaning that he gave his life for our sins, was then raised from the dead, and is now alive on his throne. This is what it is to believe.

    But when we are saved, we are saved to do good works. Even Jesus was baptized for this same reason. Peter says in (1 Peter 3:21) that baptism does save us. And he was referring to literal water baptism and not only spiritual. And I believe it is expected that we will be baptized, as becoming born again.

    Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

    1 Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

  7. #532
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You really need a class in logic. 100 people are told, if you believe in Jesus, and follow that choice up in water baptism, you will be saved. The water baptism means that the choice to believe in Jesus was a real choice--not that the act itself was necessary. Another 100 people could be told, give up your carnal lifestyle, repent, and follow Jesus, and you will be saved--nothing said at all about water baptism.

    The fact water baptism was practiced in the 1st generation of the church does not mean it was necessary for Salvation--only that if people believed in Jesus, and followed that up by an act expressing their sincerity, they would be saved.

    Rom 10.Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

    Why is the formula for Salvation lacking in any mention of Water Baptism?
    Because the FOCUS of the Gospel message is on the reasons/purpose of Christ, His life, His death, His resurrection (summed up as "His Blood)... not man.

    We can't have a Gospel message that can be concluded as: "Christ saves, ONLY if a man baptizes you (because His blood is not enough)."

    To bad for that thief on the cross
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  8. #533
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You really need a class in logic. 100 people are told, if you believe in Jesus, and follow that choice up in water baptism, you will be saved. The water baptism means that the choice to believe in Jesus was a real choice--not that the act itself was necessary. Another 100 people could be told, give up your carnal lifestyle, repent, and follow Jesus, and you will be saved--nothing said at all about water baptism.

    The fact water baptism was practiced in the 1st generation of the church does not mean it was necessary for Salvation--only that if people believed in Jesus, and followed that up by an act expressing their sincerity, they would be saved.

    Rom 10.Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

    Why is the formula for Salvation lacking in any mention of Water Baptism?
    Because the FOCUS of the Gospel message is on the reasons/purpose of Christ, His life, His death, His resurrection (summed up as "His Blood)... not man.

    We can't have a Gospel message that can be concluded as: "Christ saves, ONLY if a man baptizes you (because His blood is not enough)."

    To bad for that thief on the cross
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  9. #534
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    I think we need to consider that water baptism has nothing to do with being saved. Being born again is by grace and grace alone through our faith in Jesus. This is just not about believing that a man name Jesus lived. But that Jesus is the living Son of God. Before creation, was with God being eternal. Meaning that he gave his life for our sins, was then raised from the dead, and is now alive on his throne. This is what it is to believe.

    But when we are saved, we are saved to do good works. Even Jesus was baptized for this same reason. Peter says in (1 Peter 3:21) that baptism does save us. And he was referring to literal water baptism and not only spiritual. And I believe it is expected that we will be baptized, as becoming born again.

    Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

    1 Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
    There is a difference between saying "water baptism is part of the formula for salvation" and saying "water baptism saves you as a symbolic act." It is not the symbolic act that actually saves, but what the symbolic act represents!

    The abbreviated statement, "baptism saves you," is understood by language convention. It is not saying "water baptism is an essential element in salvation." Rather, it is an abbreviated form of saying, "water baptism, *as a symbol of salvation,* saves you inasmuch as this symbol depicts important ingredients in salvation."

    The symbolic act of water baptism represents acts that are critical to Salvation, and as such, *represents* those things. It's like saying, "If you go up to that church and accept Jesus, you will be saved." And then, to abbreviate, I say, "going to that church will save you."

    It is not literally the trip to church that saves a person, but rather, the fact it represents actually getting to church and converting to Christ. In the same way it is not the act of water baptism that literally saves someone, but the fact it is an expression of real conversion to Christ.

    Salvation was often followed up by water baptism because it represented a sincere confession that Salvation was not only committed to, but it is now something to be followed from henceforth. It is like saying, "What saves you is not just the act of commitment to Christ, but more, the *eternal* commitment to Christ in which the confession is followed up by the commitment.

  10. #535
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Salvation was often followed up by water baptism because it represented a sincere confession that Salvation was not only committed to, but it is now something to be followed from henceforth. It is like saying, "What saves you is not just the act of commitment to Christ, but more, the *eternal* commitment to Christ in which the confession is followed up by the commitment.
    Caution is needed in make such a statement. Reason, for just "an" example: a committed Christian will love their enemies, forgive them (despite the enemy not repenting/seeking reconciliation), pray for those who persecute them, etc

    Well, if a Christian doesn't do this, are they not committed ENOUGH? A person is saved and then baptized in 1980 (age 17) and in 2030 they "finally" forgave a childhood bully (part of their recovery so they can heal of the bondage to rejection since childhood).... are they suddenly committed at a "level" they are saved?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  11. #536
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Because the FOCUS of the Gospel message is on the reasons/purpose of Christ, His life, His death, His resurrection (summed up as "His Blood)... not man.

    We can't have a Gospel message that can be concluded as: "Christ saves, ONLY if a man baptizes you (because His blood is not enough)."

    To bad for that thief on the cross
    Brent argues that the thief on the cross was not required to be water baptized because he was still in the OT era. That's certainly not what I'm arguing! My argument is that water baptism is not required period. Water Baptism is an "add on" to the formula of "faith for Salvation."

    In other words, if you believe *and* are water baptized, you'll be saved. Just like, "if you believe and go to church you will be saved." It is not "going to church" that gives you salvation, but rather, the faith that leads to other things.

    Whatever follows faith is part of the Salvation that you will enjoy. If you have faith and follow that up with water baptism, you will certainly be saved. Why? It is because of the *faith* that led to Salvation. The Water Baptism is an act of confirmation.

  12. #537
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Caution is needed in make such a statement. Reason, for just "an" example: a committed Christian will love their enemies, forgive them (despite the enemy not repenting/seeking reconciliation), pray for those who persecute them, etc

    Well, if a Christian doesn't do this, are they not committed ENOUGH? A person is saved and then baptized in 1980 (age 17) and in 2030 they "finally" forgave a childhood bully (part of their recovery so they can heal of the bondage to rejection since childhood).... are they suddenly committed at a "level" they are saved?
    Right. Water Baptism merely *represents* a full commitment, as in a marriage commitment. We receive the Gospel message, and we confess it. Then we follow that up with Water Baptism, to show our full commitment from henceforth.

    None of this implies that a "full commitment" indicates perfection. It is just *more* than a half-commitment, and *less* than perfection. We make a full commitment when we yield up our carnal independence and embrace the Spirit-filled life. This doesn't make us perfect, by any stretch, nor does any kind of ritual of commitment get us Saved.

    Rather, Salvation comes when we receive the word of the Gospel, and confess it. Showing this confession in an act of water baptism merely symbolizes our commitment to living this life from that time forward.

    Water Baptism merely symbolizes a full commitment. It does not symbolize *perfection.* The act of Water Baptism *symbolically* saves us, as Water Baptism symbolizes a full commitment of the rest of our lives to Christ.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree. The thing I don't care for is the blind judgmentalism. It doesn't fit in their theology, and so to defend their version of the Bible they insist: this could *not* have happened to you. You must be lying!
    Regretfully, our brother Keraz excels in "blind judgmentalism" especially with regards to his eschatological view of Israel. I know he's not participating in this thread, so my calling him out is merely to demonstrate my understanding of the dangers to Christendom posed by such reprehensive conduct.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Regretfully, our brother Keraz excels in "blind judgmentalism" especially with regards to his eschatological view of Israel. I know he's not participating in this thread, so my calling him out is merely to demonstrate my understanding of the dangers to Christendom posed by such reprehensive conduct.
    Yes, I've had a lot of conversations with Keraz, and I see what you see. The nice thing is he tries to be congenial with me, and I sincerely appreciate that.

    I still don't agree with his lop-side interest in promoting the Solar Pulse as the "next big thing." Earlier in my life, the "next big thing" was building fallout shelters!

    I'm not interested in the "next big thing," nor in preserving my life here on earth. Rather, I'm interested in building a legacy for my eternal future. I'm interested in preparing for the Kingdom to come. That's where the Gospel really is--not in making a name for ourselves as a so-called "prophet of coming judgment."

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Why is the formula for Salvation lacking in any mention of Water Baptism?
    Have you not seen in Scripture the same story told multiple times with things included in one telling, but not the other? Almost every story that is told multiple times has differences. Does this make those differences invalid? Does this make those stories uninspired? No, it means that the Spirit was communicating a different message to a different audience at the time. Maybe one audience had already heard the story and needed to have a particular part of it emphasized, etc.

    Is everything required for salvation included in every mention of salvation in Scripture. Clearly not. Almost never are repentance and confession of the name of Christ mentioned in the same passage, but we both agree that both are required for salvation. Belief is mentioned frequently, but again, rarely linked to repentance or confession. Sometimes it is mentioned by itself. But does that invalidate repentance? No, belief is understood to include those forms of obedience. Does a person who believes but never repents receive forgiveness of sin? NO! Does a person who repents but never calls on Jesus' name, or confess His name publicly receive salvation? NO! We all agree that all these things are required for salvation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Brother, you not only isolated a verse, but isolated only a portion of the verse... totally OUT of proper context.
    A quote from the commentary you referenced in your comment.
    "Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
    16. He that believeth and is baptized] Not faith only, but baptism also is required by the Lord. Compare the words of Philip the deacon to the Ethiopian eunuch, Acts 8:37."

    I did not isolate the verse, let alone a portion of it in such a was as to take it out of context.

    An example of that is when I hear people frequently say "...where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them." This is a Biblical quote, but can it actually mean that when I am alone in my car God is not there with me? Absolutely not. There are other passages that tell us that God is with us continually, inside us as a matter of fact, whether we are alone or in a group. So what can the passage mean? Taken in context, it means that when a group of Christians agree that a brother or sister in Christ has sinned and is unrepentant, and that group dis-fellowships, or excommunicates, or shuns (whatever word you want to use) that individual from the fellowship, God is with that decision and the person is put out of Christ. See the context in Matt 18:15-20.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Why is the formula for Salvation lacking in any mention of Water Baptism?
    Have you not seen in Scripture the same story told multiple times with things included in one telling, but not the other? Almost every story that is told multiple times has differences. Does this make those differences invalid? Does this make those stories uninspired? No, it means that the Spirit was communicating a different message to a different audience at the time. Maybe one audience had already heard the story and needed to have a particular part of it emphasized, etc.

    Is everything required for salvation included in every mention of salvation in Scripture. Clearly not. Almost never are repentance and confession of the name of Christ mentioned in the same passage, but we both agree that both are required for salvation. Belief is mentioned frequently, but again, rarely linked to repentance or confession. Sometimes it is mentioned by itself. But does that invalidate repentance? No, belief is understood to include those forms of obedience. Does a person who believes but never repents receive forgiveness of sin? NO! Does a person who repents but never calls on Jesus' name, or confess His name publicly receive salvation? NO! We all agree that all these things are required for salvation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Brother, you not only isolated a verse, but isolated only a portion of the verse... totally OUT of proper context.
    A quote from the commentary you referenced in your comment.
    "Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
    16. He that believeth and is baptized] Not faith only, but baptism also is required by the Lord. Compare the words of Philip the deacon to the Ethiopian eunuch, Acts 8:37."

    I did not isolate the verse, let alone a portion of it in such a was as to take it out of context.

    An example of that is when I hear people frequently say "...where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them." This is a Biblical quote, but can it actually mean that when I am alone in my car God is not there with me? Absolutely not. There are other passages that tell us that God is with us continually, inside us as a matter of fact, whether we are alone or in a group. So what can the passage mean? Taken in context, it means that when a group of Christians agree that a brother or sister in Christ has sinned and is unrepentant, and that group dis-fellowships, or excommunicates, or shuns (whatever word you want to use) that individual from the fellowship, God is with that decision and the person is put out of Christ. See the context in Matt 18:15-20.

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