View Poll Results: Whats your best answer?

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8. You may not vote on this poll
  • Real ID is not the mark, so I will take one

    5 62.50%
  • Real ID is not the mark, but I still won't take it

    3 37.50%
  • Real ID is the mark -- and so I won't take it

    0 0%
  • Real ID is the mark -- but I will take it since I can't help

    0 0%
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Thread: Real ID

  1. #16
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    Re: Real ID

    I go into Canada all the time and already have a passport so there is no real benefit to me.
    ὁ ̓Ιησοῦς κύριος

  2. #17
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    Re: Real ID

    I have always taken it that the Mark of the Beast already happened. The book of Revelation was written to those who were about to witness the end of an Age when Judaism would come to an end with the destruction of Jerusalem. Before that event occurred things got really bad for those who refused to acknowledge Cesare as God and Lord. Here are to brief timelines but you could do more research if interested.

    Growth of Caesar-worship in the Roman Empire

    1. At Smyrna, 195 B.C., an altar was erected to Rome, the goddess, “Dea Roma.”

    2. Julius Caesar was deified the day after his death in 49 BC.

    3. There was a tendency to attribute divinity to Rome before 1st century of Christian era.

    4. Augustus Caesar, 29 B.C. permitted a temple to be erected to him at Pergamum.

    5. Caesar-worship came to be the common element for uniting all Rome’s conquered people.

    6. Gaius Caligula, 37-41 A.D. sought Caesar-worship, fanatically in Rome.

    7. Domition, 81-96 AD, insisted on being called “Our Lord and God.”

    8. The priesthood of Imperial Religion forced populace to worship the Emperor.


    9. Summary: The growth of Caesar-worship was gradual but forceful and much greater in Asia than in Rome.

    Growth of Christian Persecution

    1. First, from Jewish sources, in Jerusalem, Asia, then in Rome.

    2. Second, from Roman sources, but not for 30 years. Then influenced by Nero’s actions, setting a precedent, then by Domition, so that not to worship Caesar was considered equal to treason.

    3. Summary: Everyone must worship either Lord Caesar or Lord Jesus!


    Fun fact:

    In order to buy and sell in the Agora a person was required to burn incense to the Caesar (acknowledging his deity). "Shoppers" were probably given some sort of ink stain mark that allowed them to enter the Agora. The early Christian's called a blasphemous ruler the "beast."

    Its thought that it was required in other areas as well but where Caesar demanded to be worshipped as a God it did get to the point in some areas that you could not buy and sell or enter markets unless you 1. Proved your worship to Caesar. 2. God the Mark so you would be permitted into those areas.

    I have always taken it that the Mark of the Beast already happened. The book of Revelation was written to those who were about to witness the end of an Age when Judaism would come to an end with the destruction of Jerusalem. Before that event occurred things got really bad for those who refused to acknowledge Cesare as God and Lord. Here are to brief timelines but you could do more research if interested.

    Growth of Caesar-worship in the Roman Empire

    1. At Smyrna, 195 B.C., an altar was erected to Rome, the goddess, “Dea Roma.”

    2. Julius Caesar was deified the day after his death in 49 BC.

    3. There was a tendency to attribute divinity to Rome before 1st century of Christian era.

    4. Augustus Caesar, 29 B.C. permitted a temple to be erected to him at Pergamum.

    5. Caesar-worship came to be the common element for uniting all Rome’s conquered people.

    6. Gaius Caligula, 37-41 A.D. sought Caesar-worship, fanatically in Rome.

    7. Domition, 81-96 AD, insisted on being called “Our Lord and God.”

    8. The priesthood of Imperial Religion forced populace to worship the Emperor.


    9. Summary: The growth of Caesar-worship was gradual but forceful and much greater in Asia than in Rome.

    Growth of Christian Persecution

    1. First, from Jewish sources, in Jerusalem, Asia, then in Rome.

    2. Second, from Roman sources, but not for 30 years. Then influenced by Nero’s actions, setting a precedent, then by Domition, so that not to worship Caesar was considered equal to treason.

    3. Summary: Everyone must worship either Lord Caesar or Lord Jesus!


    Fun fact:

    In order to buy and sell in the Agora a person was required to burn incense to the Caesar (acknowledging his deity). "Shoppers" were probably given some sort of ink stain mark that allowed them to enter the Agora. The early Christian's called a blasphemous ruler the "beast."

    Its thought that it was required in other areas as well but where Caesar demanded to be worshipped as a God it did get to the point in some areas that you could not buy and sell or enter markets unless you 1. Proved your worship to Caesar. 2. God the Mark so you would be permitted into those areas.
    Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" We should always be willing to do God's bidding, seek ye first the kingdom of God.

    I use Linux because I don't like Windows

  3. #18
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    Re: Real ID

    Quote Originally Posted by uric3 View Post
    I have always taken it that the Mark of the Beast already happened. The book of Revelation was written to those who were about to witness the end of an Age when Judaism would come to an end with the destruction of Jerusalem. Before that event occurred things got really bad for those who refused to acknowledge Cesare as God and Lord. Here are to brief timelines but you could do more research if interested.

    Growth of Caesar-worship in the Roman Empire

    1. At Smyrna, 195 B.C., an altar was erected to Rome, the goddess, “Dea Roma.”

    2. Julius Caesar was deified the day after his death in 49 BC.

    3. There was a tendency to attribute divinity to Rome before 1st century of Christian era.

    4. Augustus Caesar, 29 B.C. permitted a temple to be erected to him at Pergamum.

    5. Caesar-worship came to be the common element for uniting all Rome’s conquered people.

    6. Gaius Caligula, 37-41 A.D. sought Caesar-worship, fanatically in Rome.

    7. Domition, 81-96 AD, insisted on being called “Our Lord and God.”

    8. The priesthood of Imperial Religion forced populace to worship the Emperor.


    9. Summary: The growth of Caesar-worship was gradual but forceful and much greater in Asia than in Rome.

    Growth of Christian Persecution

    1. First, from Jewish sources, in Jerusalem, Asia, then in Rome.

    2. Second, from Roman sources, but not for 30 years. Then influenced by Nero’s actions, setting a precedent, then by Domition, so that not to worship Caesar was considered equal to treason.

    3. Summary: Everyone must worship either Lord Caesar or Lord Jesus!


    Fun fact:

    In order to buy and sell in the Agora a person was required to burn incense to the Caesar (acknowledging his deity). "Shoppers" were probably given some sort of ink stain mark that allowed them to enter the Agora. The early Christian's called a blasphemous ruler the "beast."

    Its thought that it was required in other areas as well but where Caesar demanded to be worshipped as a God it did get to the point in some areas that you could not buy and sell or enter markets unless you 1. Proved your worship to Caesar. 2. God the Mark so you would be permitted into those areas.

    I have always taken it that the Mark of the Beast already happened. The book of Revelation was written to those who were about to witness the end of an Age when Judaism would come to an end with the destruction of Jerusalem. Before that event occurred things got really bad for those who refused to acknowledge Cesare as God and Lord. Here are to brief timelines but you could do more research if interested.

    Growth of Caesar-worship in the Roman Empire

    1. At Smyrna, 195 B.C., an altar was erected to Rome, the goddess, “Dea Roma.”

    2. Julius Caesar was deified the day after his death in 49 BC.

    3. There was a tendency to attribute divinity to Rome before 1st century of Christian era.

    4. Augustus Caesar, 29 B.C. permitted a temple to be erected to him at Pergamum.

    5. Caesar-worship came to be the common element for uniting all Rome’s conquered people.

    6. Gaius Caligula, 37-41 A.D. sought Caesar-worship, fanatically in Rome.

    7. Domition, 81-96 AD, insisted on being called “Our Lord and God.”

    8. The priesthood of Imperial Religion forced populace to worship the Emperor.


    9. Summary: The growth of Caesar-worship was gradual but forceful and much greater in Asia than in Rome.

    Growth of Christian Persecution

    1. First, from Jewish sources, in Jerusalem, Asia, then in Rome.

    2. Second, from Roman sources, but not for 30 years. Then influenced by Nero’s actions, setting a precedent, then by Domition, so that not to worship Caesar was considered equal to treason.

    3. Summary: Everyone must worship either Lord Caesar or Lord Jesus!


    Fun fact:

    In order to buy and sell in the Agora a person was required to burn incense to the Caesar (acknowledging his deity). "Shoppers" were probably given some sort of ink stain mark that allowed them to enter the Agora. The early Christian's called a blasphemous ruler the "beast."

    Its thought that it was required in other areas as well but where Caesar demanded to be worshipped as a God it did get to the point in some areas that you could not buy and sell or enter markets unless you 1. Proved your worship to Caesar. 2. God the Mark so you would be permitted into those areas.
    Agreed great post

  4. #19
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    Re: Real ID

    Originally Posted by uric3 I have always taken it that the Mark of the Beast already happened. The book of Revelation was written to those who were about to witness the end of an Age when Judaism would come to an end with the destruction of Jerusalem. Before that event occurred things got really bad for those who refused to acknowledge Cesare as God and Lord. Here are to brief timelines but you could do more research if interested.

    Revelation reveals that while the mark is implemented, the world is under one religion led by a supernaturally empowered false prophet enforcing the entire world to worship "a" man that is leader of the world.

    None of this has happened yet so anything referenced as "the mark" over the years, is not the "mark" revealed in The Revelation. The mark in The Revelation hasn't come to pass yet.

    Over the years, we've been "marked" in one fashion or another. The Social Security card being one of the greatest means of tracking people

    Something I always raise and have in the past so here is a paste:
    People are tracked more by their credit cards and I don't hear any complaints?

    People are tracked by their computer IP address more then these chips... who's complaining?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  5. #20
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    Re: Real ID

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Revelation reveals that while the mark is implemented, the world is under one religion led by a supernaturally empowered false prophet enforcing the entire world to worship "a" man that is leader of the world.

    None of this has happened yet so anything referenced as "the mark" over the years, is not the "mark" revealed in The Revelation. The mark in The Revelation hasn't come to pass yet.

    Over the years, we've been "marked" in one fashion or another. The Social Security card being one of the greatest means of tracking people

    Something I always raise and have in the past so here is a paste:
    Just a thought here but as you're aware Rome had taken over most of the world... So one man Caesar during this time it would have been ruled the "whole world". Below I have noted serveral bible passages to where it notes the whole world or men from every nation in the world etc... when we know it wasn't literately the whole world.

    I will take a moment to say that I know I don't know everything and don't claim to... however based upon history and the passages below... it makes sense. Caesar ruled most of the known world, he wanted to be worshiped as God and you couldn't buy and sell until you proved it... thus it makes a perfect fit in that regard. Since a lot not all of revelation is about the destruction of Jerusalem I tend to view it this way.

    Because this same type of mindset takes place throughout NT scripture...

    Col 1:23

    “if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.” (Colossians 1:23)


    Rom 1:8

    “First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.” (Romans 1:8)

    Acts 17:6

    “When they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, “These men who have upset the world have come here also” (Acts 17:6)

    Col 1:6

    “which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth” (Colossians 1:6)

    Acts 2:5

    “Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.” (Acts 2:5)
    Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" We should always be willing to do God's bidding, seek ye first the kingdom of God.

    I use Linux because I don't like Windows

  6. #21
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    Re: Real ID

    Quote Originally Posted by uric3 View Post
    Just a thought here but as you're aware Rome had taken over most of the world... So one man Caesar during this time it would have been ruled the "whole world". Below I have noted serveral bible passages to where it notes the whole world or men from every nation in the world etc... when we know it wasn't literately the whole world.

    I will take a moment to say that I know I don't know everything and don't claim to... however based upon history and the passages below... it makes sense. Caesar ruled most of the known world, he wanted to be worshiped as God and you couldn't buy and sell until you proved it... thus it makes a perfect fit in that regard. Since a lot not all of revelation is about the destruction of Jerusalem I tend to view it this way.

    Because this same type of mindset takes place throughout NT scripture...

    Col 1:23

    “if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.” (Colossians 1:23)


    Rom 1:8

    “First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.” (Romans 1:8)

    Acts 17:6

    “When they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, “These men who have upset the world have come here also” (Acts 17:6)

    Col 1:6

    “which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth” (Colossians 1:6)

    Acts 2:5

    “Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.” (Acts 2:5)
    What religion do ALL nations follow in unity during that time in history and who supernaturally was empowered to verify the "divine" nature of Caesar?

    If you are leaning toward "preterism" where 70 AD is "the time" that The Revelation is all about, HOW? The Revelation was given to mankind after 70AD, meaning all the prophecy dealing with the end-times have not come to pass yet.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  7. #22
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    Re: Real ID

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    What religion do ALL nations follow in unity during that time in history and who supernaturally was empowered to verify the "divine" nature of Caesar?

    If you are leaning toward "preterism" where 70 AD is "the time" that The Revelation is all about, HOW? The Revelation was given to mankind after 70AD, meaning all the prophecy dealing with the end-times have not come to pass yet.
    The timing of Revelation after 70AD is just a view not a fact many including myself believe that it was written during the early 60's of the first century

  8. #23
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    Re: Real ID

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    The timing of Revelation after 70AD is just a view not a fact many including myself believe that it was written during the early 60's of the first century
    Wouldn't the following be true as well, of folks such as yourself? The timing of Revelation before 70AD is just a view not a fact. You wouldn't claim it is only a fact in your case, but is only a view in all other cases, would you? What I would conclude is this. It could be a fact in your case, and maybe not either. It could also be a fact in all other cases, and maybe not either. IOW, none of us know for certain.

  9. #24
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    Re: Real ID

    Quote Originally Posted by uric3 View Post
    I have always taken it that the Mark of the Beast already happened. The book of Revelation was written to those who were about to witness the end of an Age when Judaism would come to an end with the destruction of Jerusalem. Before that event occurred things got really bad for those who refused to acknowledge Cesare as God and Lord. Here are to brief timelines but you could do more research if interested.

    Growth of Caesar-worship in the Roman Empire

    1. At Smyrna, 195 B.C., an altar was erected to Rome, the goddess, “Dea Roma.”

    2. Julius Caesar was deified the day after his death in 49 BC.

    3. There was a tendency to attribute divinity to Rome before 1st century of Christian era.

    4. Augustus Caesar, 29 B.C. permitted a temple to be erected to him at Pergamum.

    5. Caesar-worship came to be the common element for uniting all Rome’s conquered people.

    6. Gaius Caligula, 37-41 A.D. sought Caesar-worship, fanatically in Rome.

    7. Domition, 81-96 AD, insisted on being called “Our Lord and God.”

    8. The priesthood of Imperial Religion forced populace to worship the Emperor.


    9. Summary: The growth of Caesar-worship was gradual but forceful and much greater in Asia than in Rome.

    Growth of Christian Persecution

    1. First, from Jewish sources, in Jerusalem, Asia, then in Rome.

    2. Second, from Roman sources, but not for 30 years. Then influenced by Nero’s actions, setting a precedent, then by Domition, so that not to worship Caesar was considered equal to treason.

    3. Summary: Everyone must worship either Lord Caesar or Lord Jesus!


    Fun fact:

    In order to buy and sell in the Agora a person was required to burn incense to the Caesar (acknowledging his deity). "Shoppers" were probably given some sort of ink stain mark that allowed them to enter the Agora. The early Christian's called a blasphemous ruler the "beast."

    Its thought that it was required in other areas as well but where Caesar demanded to be worshipped as a God it did get to the point in some areas that you could not buy and sell or enter markets unless you 1. Proved your worship to Caesar. 2. God the Mark so you would be permitted into those areas.

    I have always taken it that the Mark of the Beast already happened. The book of Revelation was written to those who were about to witness the end of an Age when Judaism would come to an end with the destruction of Jerusalem. Before that event occurred things got really bad for those who refused to acknowledge Cesare as God and Lord. Here are to brief timelines but you could do more research if interested.

    Growth of Caesar-worship in the Roman Empire

    1. At Smyrna, 195 B.C., an altar was erected to Rome, the goddess, “Dea Roma.”

    2. Julius Caesar was deified the day after his death in 49 BC.

    3. There was a tendency to attribute divinity to Rome before 1st century of Christian era.

    4. Augustus Caesar, 29 B.C. permitted a temple to be erected to him at Pergamum.

    5. Caesar-worship came to be the common element for uniting all Rome’s conquered people.

    6. Gaius Caligula, 37-41 A.D. sought Caesar-worship, fanatically in Rome.

    7. Domition, 81-96 AD, insisted on being called “Our Lord and God.”

    8. The priesthood of Imperial Religion forced populace to worship the Emperor.


    9. Summary: The growth of Caesar-worship was gradual but forceful and much greater in Asia than in Rome.

    Growth of Christian Persecution

    1. First, from Jewish sources, in Jerusalem, Asia, then in Rome.

    2. Second, from Roman sources, but not for 30 years. Then influenced by Nero’s actions, setting a precedent, then by Domition, so that not to worship Caesar was considered equal to treason.

    3. Summary: Everyone must worship either Lord Caesar or Lord Jesus!


    Fun fact:

    In order to buy and sell in the Agora a person was required to burn incense to the Caesar (acknowledging his deity). "Shoppers" were probably given some sort of ink stain mark that allowed them to enter the Agora. The early Christian's called a blasphemous ruler the "beast."

    Its thought that it was required in other areas as well but where Caesar demanded to be worshipped as a God it did get to the point in some areas that you could not buy and sell or enter markets unless you 1. Proved your worship to Caesar. 2. God the Mark so you would be permitted into those areas.

    As to the mark of the beast though, it only involves 42 months. All of the things you have shown above involve way more than 42 months.

  10. #25
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    Re: Real ID

    Quote Originally Posted by uric3 View Post
    Just a thought here but as you're aware Rome had taken over most of the world... So one man Caesar during this time it would have been ruled the "whole world". Below I have noted serveral bible passages to where it notes the whole world or men from every nation in the world etc... when we know it wasn't literately the whole world.

    I will take a moment to say that I know I don't know everything and don't claim to... however based upon history and the passages below... it makes sense. Caesar ruled most of the known world, he wanted to be worshiped as God and you couldn't buy and sell until you proved it... thus it makes a perfect fit in that regard. Since a lot not all of revelation is about the destruction of Jerusalem I tend to view it this way.

    Because this same type of mindset takes place throughout NT scripture...

    Col 1:23

    “if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.” (Colossians 1:23)


    Rom 1:8

    “First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.” (Romans 1:8)

    Acts 17:6

    “When they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, “These men who have upset the world have come here also” (Acts 17:6)

    Col 1:6

    “which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth” (Colossians 1:6)

    Acts 2:5

    “Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.” (Acts 2:5)
    I agree with your view as well.

    As an aside, but related, the early church struggled to deal with those Christians that bent under the will of Rome and offered the wine or incense to Caesar. Termed "lapsarians" some in the church thought they should have been permanently excluded from rejoining the church, while others felt it could be possible to repent and be restored to the congregation.

  11. #26
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    Re: Real ID

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Wouldn't the following be true as well, of folks such as yourself? The timing of Revelation before 70AD is just a view not a fact. You wouldn't claim it is only a fact in your case, but is only a view in all other cases, would you? What I would conclude is this. It could be a fact in your case, and maybe not either. It could also be a fact in all other cases, and maybe not either. IOW, none of us know for certain.
    Of course it is just a view but I think that the purpose for Revelation proves that its a fact.

  12. #27
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    Re: Real ID

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    As to the mark of the beast though, it only involves 42 months. All of the things you have shown above involve way more than 42 months.
    What makes you think that it was only 42 months?

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    Re: Real ID

    Originally Posted by marty fox

    The timing of Revelation after 70AD is just a view not a fact many including myself believe that it was written during the early 60's of the first century

    When was John imprisoned? For a clue, research this historically (not Biblically) in determining which Roman Emperor was in command when John was imprisoned.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  14. #29
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    Re: Real ID

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    What makes you think that it was only 42 months?
    Probably because that's what it indicates in Rev 13. The question is, 42 literal months, or are they symbolic of much longer period?

    If we consider Jesus' ministry was 42 months according to most, that might mean the beast gets 42 literal months as well, since it seems to me that the beast would be attempting to undo everything Christ accomplished during His 42 month ministry.

  15. #30
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    Re: Real ID

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    When was John imprisoned? For a clue, research this historically (not Biblically) in determining which Roman Emperor was in command when John was imprisoned.
    I don’t think revelation is about the end of the world I think only the last 2 1/2 chapters mentions the end of the world. To me revelation is about the transition from the old covenant to the new covenant

    I think Genesis chapters 4-6 tells us more about the end of the world

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