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Thread: A Work necessary for Salvation?

  1. #46
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    Re: A Work necessary for Salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Neither was necessary for salvation under the law. David shows this in Psalms 51 when he rightly wrote that "burnt offerings God does not desire". But rather "a broken and contrite heart You will not despise". Good works, nor keeping the law ever made one righteous, else the Pharisees would have been righteous. Paul himself said according to the law, he was blameless when he was lost. But he was still lost and needed Jesus. He needed salvation before Jesus died and after he died. The pharisees were going to hell regardless of their good works and their keeping of the law. The law was never able to save before or after Christ.
    Protestant lingo can get so convoluted! And it is my purpose here to try to straighten it out. It is completely contradictory and confusing! And I don't really blame you because I've had the same problem for many, many years! I've gradually been remedying that, hopefully. So let me try to suggest a few things regarding this.

    Good Works and Redemption Rituals were indeed *required* under the Law to maintain the hope of Salvation. By "Salvation" I'm not referring to temporal events comprising "salvation" under the Old Covenant, for example when Israel was delivered from her enemies. Rather, I'm speaking of the hope of Salvation, to be accomplished at the cross. In order for Israel to retain that *hope,* they were required to both do good works and practice the redemption ceremonies. All they did, faithfully, under the Law, preserved for the nation the hope in a future Salvation, also called "Eternal Life."

    When David wrote that God did not desire animal sacrifices he was speaking into a very specific context, which you are terribly misconstruing. You are saying that contrary to God's explicit requirements Israel did *not* have to keep the Law! Jesus not only told Israel they had to keep the Law, but that the more laws they kept, the better off they were! The only laws Jesus opposed were man-made laws, or laws improperly used.

    When David wrote this, he was speaking of those who improperly used redemption rituals to cover sins that were not repented of. Therefore, the thing redemption rituals were designed for were not just in bringing forgiveness for trespasses, but also for restoring righteousness. If animals were sacrificed without repentance, the rituals amounted to nothing. Therefore, God did not *only* want the animal sacrifices, but just as much, He required with them true repentance, and actual conformity to the works required in the Law.

    To say obedience under the Law in these matters did not make anybody righteous is completely absurd. David, in his psalms, stated over and over again that the Law *did indeed* make men righteous! Read Psalm 119, and you will get the point.

    Jesus taught that those who diminished the value of the Law in making Israel righteous were to be called least in the Kingdom of heaven. Don't do this brother! And I don't think you really are--you're just fighting a semantics battle here.

    When Paul said that he was "blameless" under the Law, before he was a Christian, he is speaking, in context, of a different kind of "blamelessness" that is distinct from Christian righteousness. He is speaking specifically of compliance with the letter of the Law, which of course falls short of *spirituality* and the essence of Christian compliance.

    I hope this helps to illustrates where our different positions are coming from? A few separate issues are sort of being merged together, and that creates confusion. We need to deal with each issue separately.

  2. #47
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    Re: A Work necessary for Salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Protestant lingo can get so convoluted! And it is my purpose here to try to straighten it out. It is completely contradictory and confusing! And I don't really blame you because I've had the same problem for many, many years! I've gradually been remedying that, hopefully. So let me try to suggest a few things regarding this.

    Good Works and Redemption Rituals were indeed *required* under the Law to maintain the hope of Salvation. By "Salvation" I'm not referring to temporal events comprising "salvation" under the Old Covenant, for example when Israel was delivered from her enemies. Rather, I'm speaking of the hope of Salvation, to be accomplished at the cross. In order for Israel to retain that *hope,* they were required to both do good works and practice the redemption ceremonies. All they did, faithfully, under the Law, preserved for the nation the hope in a future Salvation, also called "Eternal Life."

    When David wrote that God did not desire animal sacrifices he was speaking into a very specific context, which you are terribly misconstruing. You are saying that contrary to God's explicit requirements Israel did *not* have to keep the Law! Jesus not only told Israel they had to keep the Law, but that the more laws they kept, the better off they were! The only laws Jesus opposed were man-made laws, or laws improperly used.

    When David wrote this, he was speaking of those who improperly used redemption rituals to cover sins that were not repented of. Therefore, the thing redemption rituals were designed for were not just in bringing forgiveness for trespasses, but also for restoring righteousness. If animals were sacrificed without repentance, the rituals amounted to nothing. Therefore, God did not *only* want the animal sacrifices, but just as much, He required with them true repentance, and actual conformity to the works required in the Law.

    To say obedience under the Law in these matters did not make anybody righteous is completely absurd. David, in his psalms, stated over and over again that the Law *did indeed* make men righteous! Read Psalm 119, and you will get the point.

    Jesus taught that those who diminished the value of the Law in making Israel righteous were to be called least in the Kingdom of heaven. Don't do this brother! And I don't think you really are--you're just fighting a semantics battle here.

    When Paul said that he was "blameless" under the Law, before he was a Christian, he is speaking, in context, of a different kind of "blamelessness" that is distinct from Christian righteousness. He is speaking specifically of compliance with the letter of the Law, which of course falls short of *spirituality* and the essence of Christian compliance.

    I hope this helps to illustrates where our different positions are coming from? A few separate issues are sort of being merged together, and that creates confusion. We need to deal with each issue separately.
    Paul makes it clear brother, that no one, not one single person, was ever made righteous by the law. That doesn't mean the law was not necessary nor that obedience was optional.

    However, law keeping never helped save one person. The bible says the same thing over, and over and over again a thousand different ways. Man kind has always been saved the same exact way, from righteous able, all the way to the present day. Hebrews 11 bears this out.

    The rich young ruler could not have been saved by obey the law either. Jesus used it, as He used it throughout the generations. God did not forgive based off of the law (i.e. blood of bulls and goats or temple rituals). Hebrews makes that clear. King David understood this when he wrote, as a prophet, Psalms 51. There's no confusion, nor convolution on any of this.

    God bless,

    Mark
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  3. #48

    Re: A Work necessary for Salvation?

    Salvation as a result of grace (divine help) that God and the Lord Jesus gives. There isn't an ounce of work required from a soul about to be saved.

    All it takes for a soul to be saved by God is for that soul to believe in the name of the Lord Jesus. Believing is our work of receiving spiritual things that are in the name of the Lord Jesus. Grace, for example, is a thing in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    Believing triggers the grace (divine help) that is in the name of the Lord Jesus. Grace requires absolutely no input from the soul about to be saved; grace is the divine help that the Lord Jesus gives all by Himself to bring about salvation.

    Having the salvation of God is not the same as having the eternal life. A soul who believes in the name of the Lord Jesus is a candidate for grace that brings about salvation. Salvation is a precursor to obtaining eternal life that God gives. God raises the saved person into the realm of eternal life.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

  4. #49
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    Re: A Work necessary for Salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This, Aviyah, is a circular argument. Jesus must have been referring to "sinless perfection" because he used the word "perfection." And "perfection" means, by definition, "sinless perfection."
    Jesus was referring to sinless perfection because:

    1) Sin pertains to the law, and He commanded us to be so righteous as to exceed the law - therefore sinless.
    2) He said we need to be perfect as God. And God is perfect both within and in exceeding the law - therefore true perfection.

    What is wrong or circular about my logic?

    I gave the example of a covenant agreement, in which both parties were required, minimally, to preserve the agreement by certain acts of performance.
    And the performance of our party in the "covenant" is to be righteous, "exceeding that of the scribes and Pharisees" - to be perfect "as your heavenly Father." Can you keep that?

    God never asked us or Israel, under the Law, to act with sinless perfection.
    You're right.

    That's why in Jesus's speech, He kept saying "You have heard it said [law, law, law] ... But now I tell you, [commands that go beyond the law]." He gave us the command of complete perfection, EXCEEDING the law - perfection on the standard of God. That's indeed something Moses and the scribes were not teaching.

    You're suggesting that Jesus deliberately made a man sorrowful, asking him to do something he couldn't possibly accomplish.
    Yes I am! Read on:

    When the disciples heard [Jesus's interaction with the ruler], they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19)

    It is impossible for man to reach the perfect standard that God has given. Hence:

    By works of the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2)
    For the Law merely brings awareness of sin...
    The law came in so that the trespass would increase...
    As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one." (Romans 3)
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: A Work necessary for Salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Paul makes it clear brother, that no one, not one single person, was ever made righteous by the law. That doesn't mean the law was not necessary nor that obedience was optional.
    Again, we are battling the same semantics issue. What does that statement mean, that obedience never made anybody righteous? I can give you example after example of biblical statements in which men who obeyed the Law were deemed "righteous." I need not quote them because they are so numerous.

    So what you are referring to is "Christian lingo," in which Paul makes statements in a very restricted sense, as applying to Justification. Nobody can be Justified by obedience to the Law of Moses. Obedience under the Law of Moses did make Israel righteous, if they operated in the right spirit, and it adequately enabled them to have the hope of Eternal Life.

    But in terms of Justification, obedience to the Law did not itself achieve Eternal Life. It was only preparatory, as well as necessary, in order to qualify for the *hope* of Eternal Life. Obedience to the Law did not *achieve* Eternal Life. But it was necessary in order to preserve that hope.

    As I said before, Christ's Redemption was not achievable by sinful men. It could only be received, confessed, and complied with. But we can obey, and therefore meet conditions necessary to receive that Redemption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark
    However, law keeping never helped save one person. The bible says the same thing over, and over and over again a thousand different ways. Man kind has always been saved the same exact way, from righteous able, all the way to the present day. Hebrews 11 bears this out.

    The rich young ruler could not have been saved by obey the law either. Jesus used it, as He used it throughout the generations. God did not forgive based off of the law (i.e. blood of bulls and goats or temple rituals). Hebrews makes that clear. King David understood this when he wrote, as a prophet, Psalms 51. There's no confusion, nor convolution on any of this.

    God bless,

    Mark
    I respectfully disagree with some of these assertions. I would agree with you that sinful Man cannot achieve his own Redemption. He can only qualify for it, by complying with the conditions necessary for receiving Redemption as laid down by God. Part of complying with the conditions necessary for receiving Redemption involves the matter of understanding, specifically, what God requires of the individual in order to give up his carnal ways for the ways of God? These are "works of compliance," rather than works used to "earn Salvation."

    The Rich Young Ruler was required, by Jesus, to give up his carnal hoarding of wealth in order to get Salvation. This is not a legalistic "work" necessary for all men to follow in order to achieve Eternal Life. Rather, it was something this particular individual had to do in order to comply with the need to give up carnality for Salvation.

    I've never said that Works of the Law themselves achieve Salvation. They are, however, necessary to meet the conditions necessary to preserve that hope under the Law.

    Today, Works of the Law are not in operation at all, because God Himself has replaced the Law of Moses with a better law, the Law of Christian Redemption. It renders moot the things that the Law were trying to accomplish, in maintaining the hope of Eternal Life. Since Christ has already obtained for us Eternal Life, God no longer requires that we maintain hope that it will happen!

    Rather, what God requires today is that we do a different kind of work than that required under the Law of Moses. And that "work," if you want to call it that, is whatever it is that God deems is necessary for us to give up our carnal ways in order to receive Salvation. We cannot pursue both courses. We must give up our carnal ways in order to obtain Salvation.

    But the thing we must do is not a legalistic "work" that all men are required to do. It it a matter for the Holy Spirit to look into the lives of individuals and determine what it is they are holding onto, preventing them from obtaining Salvation. It is not a work that "earns Salvation," but it is clearly a work that is necessary to qualify for it.

  6. #51
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    Re: A Work necessary for Salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Yes I am! Read on:

    When the disciples heard [Jesus's interaction with the ruler], they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19)

    It is impossible for man to reach the perfect standard that God has given. Hence:

    By works of the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2)
    For the Law merely brings awareness of sin...
    The law came in so that the trespass would increase...
    As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one." (Romans 3)
    I wish I could rep you again. Jesus was saying two things to the rich young ruler immediately "I am good, because I am God, though you don't know it. You are not good, and you don't know it yet."

    He gave him and impossible task which the law was always meant to do. By it neither justification nor His righteousness could be imparted. Great job Aviyah. The exegesis is excellent.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  7. #52
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    Re: A Work necessary for Salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Again, we are battling the same semantics issue. What does that statement mean, that obedience never made anybody righteous? I can give you example after example of biblical statements in which men who obeyed the Law were deemed "righteous." I need not quote them because they are so numerous.

    So what you are referring to is "Christian lingo," in which Paul makes statements in a very restricted sense, as applying to Justification. Nobody can be Justified by obedience to the Law of Moses. Obedience under the Law of Moses did make Israel righteous, if they operated in the right spirit, and it adequately enabled them to have the hope of Eternal Life.

    But in terms of Justification, obedience to the Law did not itself achieve Eternal Life. It was only preparatory, as well as necessary, in order to qualify for the *hope* of Eternal Life. Obedience to the Law did not *achieve* Eternal Life. But it was necessary in order to preserve that hope.

    As I said before, Christ's Redemption was not achievable by sinful men. It could only be received, confessed, and complied with. But we can obey, and therefore meet conditions necessary to receive that Redemption.



    I respectfully disagree with some of these assertions. I would agree with you that sinful Man cannot achieve his own Redemption. He can only qualify for it, by complying with the conditions necessary for receiving Redemption as laid down by God. Part of complying with the conditions necessary for receiving Redemption involves the matter of understanding, specifically, what God requires of the individual in order to give up his carnal ways for the ways of God? These are "works of compliance," rather than works used to "earn Salvation."

    The Rich Young Ruler was required, by Jesus, to give up his carnal hoarding of wealth in order to get Salvation. This is not a legalistic "work" necessary for all men to follow in order to achieve Eternal Life. Rather, it was something this particular individual had to do in order to comply with the need to give up carnality for Salvation.

    I've never said that Works of the Law themselves achieve Salvation. They are, however, necessary to meet the conditions necessary to preserve that hope under the Law.

    Today, Works of the Law are not in operation at all, because God Himself has replaced the Law of Moses with a better law, the Law of Christian Redemption. It renders moot the things that the Law were trying to accomplish, in maintaining the hope of Eternal Life. Since Christ has already obtained for us Eternal Life, God no longer requires that we maintain hope that it will happen!

    Rather, what God requires today is that we do a different kind of work than that required under the Law of Moses. And that "work," if you want to call it that, is whatever it is that God deems is necessary for us to give up our carnal ways in order to receive Salvation. We cannot pursue both courses. We must give up our carnal ways in order to obtain Salvation.

    But the thing we must do is not a legalistic "work" that all men are required to do. It it a matter for the Holy Spirit to look into the lives of individuals and determine what it is they are holding onto, preventing them from obtaining Salvation. It is not a work that "earns Salvation," but it is clearly a work that is necessary to qualify for it.
    If one must do a "work" to qualify for grace, then it is no longer grace. Perhaps it is better to speak of submission/repentance rather than a "work" or "deed". The publican would not even lift his eyes towards heaven, standing a long way off, said "God be merciful to me, the sinner". Humilty/submission go a long way with God. I would combine faith and humility/submission as necessary for salvation. Sometimes those traits are revealed in a work, but the work is not what saves nor qualifies for it it were, then grace is no long grace. Or as Paul wrote:

    Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

    7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain.

    In Romans 9, Paul showed us that they actually tried to get qualified by works of the law. But they could never ever be successful with it. David knew this because he walked with God.

    We see this humility/submission and faith in David when he penned Psalm 51.

    Psalm 51:16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;

    you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.

    17 My sacrifice, O God, is b a broken spirit;

    a broken and contrite heart

    you, God, will not despise.

    In Galatians, Paul carries it a step further and shows us that even our sanctification comes by submission/humility and faith. James teaches us that as we grow in submission and faith, our maturity will be reflected in works. If our faith has no works, then it is dead. God immediately credited righteousness to Abraham before the work was done. But his faith was genuine as it later was revealed in his works as he worked out his own salvation in fear and trembling. Thus, his righteousness and justification before God were seen by all.


    David rightly told God that God did not delight in offerings. Otherwise, David would have offered it. Nor did God delight in self righteousness that comes by our own works, that we could brag before God that God owed us righteousness/justification because we "qualified" for it. What David offered God was humility, faith, and submission through a broken heart that God could clearly see. Thus, David was forgiven without anything pertaining to the law (either the moral, ritual, or national parts of the law).
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  8. #53
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    Re: A Work necessary for Salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Jesus was referring to sinless perfection because:

    1) Sin pertains to the law, and He commanded us to be so righteous as to exceed the law - therefore sinless.
    2) He said we need to be perfect as God. And God is perfect both within and in exceeding the law - therefore true perfection.
    No, I don't believe Jesus commanded Israel to exceed the Law. Rather, he required of Israel that they exceed the "righteousness of the Pharisees," who actually did not comply with the dictates of the Law. They were legalists who avoided the spiritual functions of the Law, and depended purely on the letter of the Law, sometimes even perverting those requirements. External observance of the Law, or observance by the letter, was condemned by Jesus. And this is the kind of adherence to the Law that Jesus said must be surpassed.

    No, Jesus did not ask of men that they be sinlessly perfect, as He was sinlessly perfect. He was asking them to be in compliance with the *covenant* of the Law in the same way that He was, by obeying the spirit of His word. His Spirit and His virtue were latent within His word, and when he asked Israel to obey His word He was able to communicate His virtue to them--His own sinless perfection and not theirs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah
    What is wrong or circular about my logic?
    You are suggesting that God required perfection of Man when He knew they had a Sin Nature and could not achieve perfection. God would not do that. He did not do that. All He ever has required, since the Fall, is that we obey His Word, and thus participate in His own internal, spiritual righteousness. It does not achieve Salvation, but it prepared Israel to receive it when it appeared.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah
    And the performance of our party in the "covenant" is to be righteous, "exceeding that of the scribes and Pharisees" - to be perfect "as your heavenly Father." Can you keep that?
    This was written to Israel--not to me. Regardless, sinful Man can indeed obey God's word and thus obtain His righteousness through that vehicle. We receive the spiritual benefits of Christ's own sinless perfection, but we do not thereby become sinlessly perfect ourselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah
    You're right.

    That's why in Jesus's speech, He kept saying "You have heard it said [law, law, law] ... But now I tell you, [commands that go beyond the law]." He gave us the command of complete perfection, EXCEEDING the law - perfection on the standard of God. That's indeed something Moses and the scribes were not teaching.



    Yes I am! Read on:

    When the disciples heard [Jesus's interaction with the ruler], they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19)

    It is impossible for man to reach the perfect standard that God has given. Hence:

    By works of the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2)
    For the Law merely brings awareness of sin...
    The law came in so that the trespass would increase...
    As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one." (Romans 3)
    Matt 19 is speaking of an impossibility in an *entirely different context!* Not the same thing at all. The dictates of the Law were fully observable, and certainly not impossible. Otherwise, David would never have sung their praises in Psa 119. Nor would Jesus have encouraged *more* observance of the Law than *less.* The kind of "perfection" he was after was a quality of obedience that actually constitutes obedience. I call that "spiritual obedience," as opposed to observing the letter of the Law.

    Your reference to Gal 2 and Rom 3 have to do with Justification, and not with the ability to obey the Law. And as such, they are not connected with Jesus' idea of being "perfect."

    Rom 12.2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
    2 Cor 7.1 Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
    2 Cor 12.9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.
    Col 3.14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
    Heb 5.9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.


    All of these Scriptures show that we somehow enter into the perfection of Christ, and thus become, in a sense, perfect together with him spiritually. It is not that we are sinlessly perfect, but that we comply with his covenant.

    On the other hand, we have the following passage, which tells us that our perfection comes by virtue of Christ, and in association with him. It is the same under the Old Covenant, that observing the Law made Israel conform to the perfection of God. That is, their compliance with the word of God under the Law did make them "perfect" in the sense of complying with God's covenant.

    Heb 7.11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

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    Re: A Work necessary for Salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, I don't believe Jesus commanded Israel to exceed the Law. Rather, he required of Israel that they exceed the "righteousness of the Pharisees," who actually did not comply with the dictates of the Law.
    If He were only talking about the faults of the Pharisees, He wouldn't have been quoting the Law:

    You have heard that it was said to those of old,
    ‘You shall not murder' ...
    You shall not commit adultery ...
    You shall love your neighbor.


    Those are laws. He exceeds them with greater commands:

    "Everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment ..."
    "Everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery ..."
    "Love your enemies"

    You are suggesting that God required perfection of Man when He knew they had a Sin Nature and could not achieve perfection.
    Yes. And I'm only saying that because I'm reading it. "Be perfect as your heavenly Father" is too clear to me. "Then who can be saved? ... With man this is impossible", is too clear to me.

    God would not do that. He did not do that.
    The only way I'm convinced of anything is with Scripture. If you can show me where I'm wrong within the passages I'm citing, I'll be persuaded of this.

    Matt 19 is speaking of an impossibility in an *entirely different context!* Not the same thing at all.


    I think you may have gotten mixed up in the posts. Matthew 19:16-30 is the story of the rich young ruler. I quoted Matthew 19:25-26 after the man walks away an the disciples are confused about the interaction. "With man this is impossible" is Jesus's response to the situation that just unfolded, "How can anyone be saved?"

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    Re: A Work necessary for Salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    If He were only talking about the faults of the Pharisees, He wouldn't have been quoting the Law:

    You have heard that it was said to those of old,
    ‘You shall not murder' ...
    You shall not commit adultery ...
    You shall love your neighbor.


    Those are laws. He exceeds them with greater commands:

    "Everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment ..."
    "Everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery ..."
    "Love your enemies"
    The "faults of the Pharisees" involved their performance of God's laws with the wrong spirit, to be seen of men, to hide inward sins, to observe the "letter of the Law" and ignore the more important aspects or moral character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah
    Yes. And I'm only saying that because I'm reading it. "Be perfect as your heavenly Father" is too clear to me. "Then who can be saved? ... With man this is impossible", is too clear to me.
    As I indicated, you're conflating 2 distinct passages, and so, misinterpreting them. In the 1st instance, "perfection" does not involve sinless perfection because Jesus clearly required it of Israel who he *knew* had a sin nature and could never be sinlessly perfect. In the 2nd passage, Jesus indicates that "perfection" is the product of man helpless in his sin nature acquiring helping from God's grace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah
    The only way I'm convinced of anything is with Scripture. If you can show me where I'm wrong within the passages I'm citing, I'll be persuaded of this.
    I already have. Some of it only requires common sense. To think that Jesus seriously required sinless perfection of men tainted with sin is ludicrous and illogical. It makes more sense to see human agreement with a perfect God in the form of a compact as the kind of "perfection" required of Israel. Israel was to respond to a perfect God by playing by the rules of that perfect God, which required obedience, and not perfection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah


    I think you may have gotten mixed up in the posts. Matthew 19:16-30 is the story of the rich young ruler. I quoted Matthew 19:25-26 after the man walks away an the disciples are confused about the interaction. "With man this is impossible" is Jesus's response to the situation that just unfolded, "How can anyone be saved?"
    No, I'm not confused. You referred, indirectly, to the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus required men to obey the totality of the Law.
    You said, "That's why in Jesus's speech, He kept saying "You have heard it said [law, law, law] ... But now I tell you, [commands that go beyond the law]." He gave us the command of complete perfection, EXCEEDING the law - perfection on the standard of God. That's indeed something Moses and the scribes were not teaching."

    But then you switched to Matt 19, which suggests the impossibility of obeying God's word, in respect to riches, apart from God's help. These are 2 different contexts. There is the possibility of obeying all of God's Law in the Sermon on the Mount, and the impossibility of obeying God's Law with respect to riches in Matt 19. But Matt 19 actually suggests that the Law can be successfully obeyed, although impossible with human nature alone, if a man looks to the power inherent in God's word to obey that word.

  11. #56

    Re: A Work necessary for Salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Paul makes it clear brother, that no one, not one single person, was ever made righteous by the law. That doesn't mean the law was not necessary nor that obedience was optional.

    However, law keeping never helped save one person. The bible says the same thing over, and over and over again a thousand different ways. Man kind has always been saved the same exact way, from righteous able, all the way to the present day. Hebrews 11 bears this out.

    The rich young ruler could not have been saved by obey the law either. Jesus used it, as He used it throughout the generations. God did not forgive based off of the law (i.e. blood of bulls and goats or temple rituals). Hebrews makes that clear. King David understood this when he wrote, as a prophet, Psalms 51. There's no confusion, nor convolution on any of this.

    God bless,

    Mark
    King david was sentenced to death according to the mosaic law ....men are saved by doing what God has said through jesus.....that's not the law of Moses brother two different things, the gospel is the good news , Abraham had faith so he obeyed Gods word ...Noah had faith so he obeyed Gods word .......were dead to the mosaic law , we abide in the doctrine of Christ....whoever does what she right , is righteous...

  12. #57

    Re: A Work necessary for Salvation?

    jesus wasn't teaching the mosaic law ....

  13. #58

    Re: A Work necessary for Salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    I wish I could rep you again. Jesus was saying two things to the rich young ruler immediately "I am good, because I am God, though you don't know it. You are not good, and you don't know it yet."

    He gave him and impossible task which the law was always meant to do. By it neither justification nor His righteousness could be imparted. Great job Aviyah. The exegesis is excellent.
    your conflating what Jesus said ,,"with the works of the law " the law never demanded rich people to give thier Welch up , give it to the poor and follow,God....the law said pay your tithes and your justified according to the law.

    Jesus was reproving the rulers love for wealth more than the poor .....very simple the gospel is NOT the mosaic law in any form. It's salvation from the sentance upon us all because of our sin , under a holy law. Jesus teachings were not any form of Moses law , Moses wrote in the law itself when Christ comes his word suprcedes , his word Gid will require.

    we cannot serve money rather than God ....that's the message the ruler loved money more than what his savior and lord had offered him....material things seek to own hearts ....

  14. #59
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    Re: A Work necessary for Salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The "faults of the Pharisees" involved their performance of God's laws with the wrong spirit, to be seen of men, to hide inward sins, to observe the "letter of the Law" and ignore the more important aspects or moral character.
    I understand that aspect, but I'm making a different point.

    Does "insulting your brother" or "looking with lust" make you liable for judgment? Not under Moses, but certainly under God's standard of perfection. This is what Jesus meant by exceeding the law. The conduct of the Pharisees is a separate topic, stated explicitly here:

    Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: “The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. (Matthew 23)

    No, I'm not confused ... you switched to Matt 19, which suggests the impossibility of obeying God's word
    But, weren't we talking about Matthew 19 the whole time?

    Me: "The ruler became aware of his sin, and went away attempting reach perfection, rather than repenting by pleading to God for mercy." (citing Matthew 19)
    You: "You're suggesting that Jesus deliberately made a man sorrowful, asking him to do something he couldn't possibly accomplish." (still on Matthew 19)
    Me: Yes I am! “Who then can be saved?” ... “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (citing Matthew 19)
    You: Matt 19 is speaking of an impossibility in an *entirely different context!* (???)

    Here's the summary of Matthew 19, and how I connect it to the main topic:

    1. The ruler asks how he can have eternal life. (v. 19)
    2. Jesus initially gives the ruler the Law (Moses), "Keep the commandments." (v. 17-19)
    3. The ruler claims he has kept all of them, and asks what's missing. (v. 20)
    4. Jesus then gives the ruler a new commandment, to be perfect, which exceeds the Law of Moses, "Give away your possessions." (v. 21)
    5. The ruler leaves discouraged, and the disciples ask who could possibly be saved given such huge requirements/difficulties. (v. 25)
    7. Jesus says, it is IMPOSSIBLE with man. (v. 26)

    This is a real-life application of what Jesus preached in the Sermon on the Mount. It is impossible for man to reach the requirement, because the standard is to be perfect. We cannot attain this perfection, and God knows that. He sets it so high above us in order for us to see that we are sinful at heart. It is an impossible goal that only Jesus was able to meet and fulfill.

  15. #60
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    Re: A Work necessary for Salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    I understand that aspect, but I'm making a different point.

    Does "insulting your brother" or "looking with lust" make you liable for judgment? Not under Moses, but certainly under God's standard of perfection. This is what Jesus meant by exceeding the law. The conduct of the Pharisees is a separate topic, stated explicitly here:

    Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: “The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. (Matthew 23)
    I disagree. The Law of Moses clearly and unambiguously dealt with issues such as the "lust of the flesh." It deals with both "lusting after someone else sexually," as well as with "insulting your brother."

    Deut 5.21 You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
    Lev 19.17 Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah
    But, weren't we talking about Matthew 19 the whole time?
    No, as I just quoted you, you were referring to the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus talked about keeping the whole Law in its entirety.

    Matt 5.19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah
    Me: "The ruler became aware of his sin, and went away attempting reach perfection, rather than repenting by pleading to God for mercy." (citing Matthew 19)
    You: "You're suggesting that Jesus deliberately made a man sorrowful, asking him to do something he couldn't possibly accomplish." (still on Matthew 19)
    Me: Yes I am! “Who then can be saved?” ... “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (citing Matthew 19)
    You: Matt 19 is speaking of an impossibility in an *entirely different context!* (???)

    Here's the summary of Matthew 19, and how I connect it to the main topic:

    1. The ruler asks how he can have eternal life. (v. 19)
    2. Jesus initially gives the ruler the Law (Moses), "Keep the commandments." (v. 17-19)
    3. The ruler claims he has kept all of them, and asks what's missing. (v. 20)
    4. Jesus then gives the ruler a new commandment, to be perfect, which exceeds the Law of Moses, "Give away your possessions." (v. 21)
    5. The ruler leaves discouraged, and the disciples ask who could possibly be saved given such huge requirements/difficulties. (v. 25)
    7. Jesus says, it is IMPOSSIBLE with man. (v. 26)

    This is a real-life application of what Jesus preached in the Sermon on the Mount. It is impossible for man to reach the requirement, because the standard is to be perfect. We cannot attain this perfection, and God knows that. He sets it so high above us in order for us to see that we are sinful at heart. It is an impossible goal that only Jesus was able to meet and fulfill.
    That is not, however, what Jesus said. He said it was possible for a wealthy man to give up his carnal materialism for the sake of the Kingdom of God *with the help of God.* It was not a matter of sinless perfection, which no man can accomplish--not even with the help of God. As long as we are in this sinful flesh, we cannot achieve perfection.

    But Jesus was saying that mankind, in their current fallen state, can indeed achieve this seemingly "impossible" task, with the help of God. Jesus did not drive men to himself by giving them an "impossible" task. Rather, he required that men come to him in order to achieve this otherwise impossible task.

    The "perfection" Jesus required was therefore not "sinless perfection," which no man can achieve. Rather, it was the "perfection" involved in our uniting ourselves with the perfect Christ in order to do works enabled by him.

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