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Thread: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

  1. #16
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    The Biblical account says it was a bronze helmet. The description matched archaeological finds during the bronze age, there are a variety of styles for these helmets, but in every case they cover the head with bronze.

    Interesting that you say the Philistines shaved their face, again, not what is depicted in the art work. Our idea that he held his head by the hair is strongly influenced by artistic drawings and is not in any way based on the Biblical account.
    Interesting that a person with 50 years under their belt chooses to doubt the Word of God's truth because they are influenced by worldly artwork

    I read in your posts a bunch of questions, declaration of what the world has provided as evidence and a conclusion that the Bible doesn't make sense or may not be correct

    Do a true study, the helmet is made of bronze but there is much more about the helmet based on history and archeological evidences of the Philistines at that time.

    By the way, as a student of God's Word, I've never held an opinion that David held up the head by the hair. As a child I did because ALL the graphic stories depicted as such. I know many a babe in Christ usually has the assumption that David held the head up by the hair and I've always asked "why" they have such an assumption? However, NEVER have I encountered any babe in Christ considering that scripture may be in error because of "their" assumptions. They at least accepted that while they may not understand the scripture, they accepted the scripture
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

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  2. #17

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    It doesnít matter?? Your whole theory starts with he couldnít have held the head by the hair since it was shaved down.

    This isnít a legitimate discussion.
    Apparently I was misunderstood on this point, so I will go through it in greater detail.

    As a rule military men have crew cuts, we know this, the reason is simple, to prevent you from grabbing their hair in a fight. However, even though this is a rule it is also true that there are exceptions to every rule.

    Without spectacularly good archaeological find we could never know for sure if Goliath had a crew cut, long hair, or was bald. That is why I said "it doesn't matter". You can't prove it one way or the other.

    What you can prove is that he was wearing a bronze helmet. You can prove that a sword can cut through hair so holding the head by the hair during the slaughter of the Philistines would not be very effective. What you can prove is that to hold the head by the hair you would have to remove the helmet. We know that David put Goliath's armor in his tent. It was a trophy, he wanted it. He also kept the head. Surely he would want the helmet as well. What you can prove is that the neck is stronger, would hold up better in a battle of several hours, and offers protection to the hand that is holding it. If you held the head by the neck you could keep the helmet on and the would make the head better as a shield.

  3. #18

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Interesting that a person with 50 years under their belt chooses to doubt the Word of God's truth because they are influenced by worldly artwork
    Really? What word in the Bible am I doubting the truth of? I am questioning Christian teachings and interpretations. Show me the Bible verse that says he held the head by the hair?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I read in your posts a bunch of questions, declaration of what the world has provided as evidence and a conclusion that the Bible doesn't make sense or may not be correct
    The Bible? What I have said didn't make sense was the teaching because it didn't match the Biblical account.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Do a true study, the helmet is made of bronze but there is much more about the helmet based on history and archeological evidences of the Philistines at that time.

    By the way, as a student of God's Word, I've never held an opinion that David held up the head by the hair. As a child I did because ALL the graphic stories depicted as such. I know many a babe in Christ usually has the assumption that David held the head up by the hair and I've always asked "why" they have such an assumption? However, NEVER have I encountered any babe in Christ considering that scripture may be in error because of "their" assumptions. They at least accepted that while they may not understand the scripture, they accepted the scripture
    Really? What word in the Bible am I doubting the truth of?

    Please respond because I would like to know what verse in the Bible I am doubting and questioning?

  4. #19
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    He probably just grabbed a handful of hair ! I doubt his head weighed 50 pounds or more.

  5. #20
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    Really? What word in the Bible am I doubting the truth of? I am questioning Christian teachings and interpretations. Show me the Bible verse that says he held the head by the hair?
    I can't. Why assume the head was held up by the hair? The Word says that David held up the head... this ends all debate whether or not that the head was held up!! This is actually a no brainer.

    Now, do you want to discuss HOW David accomplished holding the head up? Do the research on how that helmet looked, how it was secured to the head, etc and you will be able to determine HOW David held up the head.


    The Bible? What I have said didn't make sense was the teaching because it didn't match the Biblical account.
    "It" doesn't match the Bible account? Is this "it" a stumbling block, for you?


    [quote]Really? What word in the Bible am I doubting the truth of?[quote]To my understanding of this thread, you are doubting much that the Bible accounts for.


    Please respond because I would like to know what verse in the Bible I am doubting and questioning?
    See last comment. I will add, the reason you are questioning the account seems to be that most of the head speculations you've expressed, are answered by the very scriptures you are questioning. Go back to Followers post and read all the red parts.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  6. #21
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    It isn't a legitimate discussion if you don't read the entire post. No research could prove how long Goliath's hair is. There is no mention in the record as to how David held the head, only that he held it all the way through the battle with one hand. Also we don't know if David removed the helmet from his head, only that he was wearing armor. What can be said is that if he held the head by the neck then that would have been a strong handle, it would have been quite effective as a shield, especially if he left the helmet on, it is reasonable that it would hold up for the entire battle, and he would have had to have cut the neck very carefully and precisely.
    Ok... where does the text say that David carried the head during battle? It says that he returned with it to Jerusalem. My guess is that he left it at the camp before he did battle.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

  7. #22

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    He probably just grabbed a handful of hair ! I doubt his head weighed 50 pounds or more.
    That is what the standard concept is. It works if he has a handful of hair which is an assumption that may or may not be true. It also only works if he discards the helmet, yet we know David kept the armor as a trophy.

    However it says he was holding the head in one hand when he returned from the slaughter of the Philistines, a battle that would have lasted for at least a couple of hours (they describe how far they chased them in the account) and was a hand to hand sword fight. Is the handful of hair going to hold up?

    I am not saying that the common explanation is false because I cannot prove beyond any possible doubt that it is. What I am saying is that using the neck would have worked regardless of whether or not Goliath had hair, if he was bald, if he had a crew cut, doesn't matter. I am also saying that using the neck would have been a much stronger handhold that would have reasonably been expected to last through the battle of several hours. I am also saying that using the neck makes the head a much better shield because the chin will protect your hand and because you can leave the helmet on.

    The difference is that using the head would have been premeditated because if you just hack at the neck you don't have enough to grab.

    Now there is a lot of evidence from the record that this was premeditated.

    1. We are told specifically that David went back and forth from the battle. And we are told specifically from his brother that he knew he was spying out the situation and David doesn't deny that, rather says "is there not a cause".

    2. David tells Saul he can't use his sword and armor because he has not proved them. That indicates he has "proved" his approach. He has a plan, he has trained, he knows what he is doing. You can't simply say that this means he wouldn't use a sword that he hasn't practiced with because during the slaughter of the Philistines he uses Goliath's sword.

    3. We know that David is a preeminent fighter. He killed a lion and a bear in hand to hand combat. He killed the giant. Later he kills 200 Philistines and gives their foreskins as a gift to Saul. It is not hard to imagine a teenager being highly skilled athlete, we see that all the time. But no one would imagine someone with this skill was not trained. This is why Saul asks the captain of the guard "whose son is this?"

    4. Everyone imagines that it is automatic for the Philistines to flee when Goliath is killed. I don't. They had ruled over Israel, their is always the threat they will fight rather than flight. But David is transformed in front of their eyes from a lowly shepherd boy to a killer holding Goliath's head in one hand and sword in the other. I suspect the combination of confusion and terror guaranteed they would flee. That to me is the fingerprint of Jesse, I don't think the teenager would think past killing Goliath, but only someone with a lot of experience realizes that once Goliath is dead you still have to defeat the Philistine army, it has been a stalemate for the last couple of months, and if they rush David he will be completely outnumbered.

    5. When you strategize in war you want the element of surprise, you want a strategy that they will not be prepared for. I have never read in the Bible or elsewhere of a man fighting a battle using a head as a shield. When you chop off a head you are going to get very bloody. This would be a terrifying sight. Brilliant strategy.

  8. #23
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Well, maybe 2 heads are better than one
    Ok, I'm out

  9. #24

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    To my understanding of this thread, you are doubting much that the Bible accounts for..
    Well I would really appreciate it if you could point me to specifics because in my understanding all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in the Bible. I am simply trying to dig them out.

    Perhaps a little background will help. As a kid there was a very large oak tree outside the window that had been hit by lightening. You could see the scar. I would think "wow, can you imagine sitting here when that was hit! It would have been awesome". I think many of us read the Bible that way -- for example can you imagine being there when David killed Goliath.

    Then one day it occurred to me, that is electricity. I use it every day. Which is better to be sitting here hoping to see lightening strike, or to understand how electricity works and to be able to use it everyday whenever you wish?

  10. #25
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Can you post some of your findings about the hair length of ancient Philistine warriors?
    It is a stretch, no doubt. Philistine's and Jews both had long hair and beards from everything I've read or learned about them. He may have grabbed his hair. His beard, his mouth , his nostril's, or an ear, or may have carried it like a watermelon... Who knows ? My thing is that a head, even a giant's head, is able to be carried.

  11. #26
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    Well I would really appreciate it if you could point me to specifics because in my understanding all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in the Bible. I am simply trying to dig them out.

    Perhaps a little background will help. As a kid there was a very large oak tree outside the window that had been hit by lightening. You could see the scar. I would think "wow, can you imagine sitting here when that was hit! It would have been awesome". I think many of us read the Bible that way -- for example can you imagine being there when David killed Goliath.

    Then one day it occurred to me, that is electricity. I use it every day. Which is better to be sitting here hoping to see lightening strike, or to understand how electricity works and to be able to use it everyday whenever you wish?
    You are not going to understand HOW David lifted the helmeted head through scripture. All we are given is that he DID lift up the head. So we can't question this. The HOW... sure. So if all you said in this post is true, go learn about the helmet, how it is secured to the head, etc.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  12. #27
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    Still the neck seems to me to be the best approach.
    That isn't the best approach at all. That would most likely be impossible due to the size differences. There is also no evidence David held the head through an entire battle. All it says is he brought the head in his hand to Saul.

    1Sa 17:51 Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled.
    1Sa 17:52 And the men of Israel and of Judah arose, and shouted, and pursued the Philistines, until thou come to the valley, and to the gates of Ekron. And the wounded of the Philistines fell down by the way to Shaaraim, even unto Gath, and unto Ekron.
    1Sa 17:53 And the children of Israel returned from chasing after the Philistines, and they spoiled their tents.
    1Sa 17:54 And David took the head of the Philistine, and brought it to Jerusalem; but he put his armour in his tent.
    1Sa 17:55 And when Saul saw David go forth against the Philistine, he said unto Abner, the captain of the host, Abner, whose son is this youth? And Abner said, As thy soul liveth, O king, I cannot tell.
    1Sa 17:56 And the king said, Enquire thou whose son the stripling is.
    1Sa 17:57 And as David returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, Abner took him, and brought him before Saul with the head of the Philistine in his hand.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  13. #28

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    To sum up:

    1. There is no definitive evidence as to whether David held Goliath's head by the hair or the neck. Of course if the hair was too short to hold it wouldn't have been possible, likewise if Goliath was bald it wouldn't have been possible, and if David wished to keep the helmet on it wouldn't have been possible. On the other hand the neck would have worked in any and all situations, unless of course David's hands were too small to hold the neck.

    2. The only reason many assume David held the head by the hair is because that is how it is depicted in artwork, not because of any Biblical suggestion to that effect.

    3. No one disputes that David was in fact spying out the situation for 40 days while Goliath is challenging Israel, the allegation that David's oldest brother makes, and that even David does not dispute, rather saying "is there not a cause".

    4. No one disputes that for those 40 days David was training to kill Goliath. He refers to this training when he says that he can't use Saul's armor or sword because he has not "proved them" or trained with them.

    5. No one disputes that the impression of David as a harmless shepherd boy is misleading as his record of killing a lion, bear, giant and then 200 philistines attests that he was in fact a very skilled, highly trained fighter.

    6. No one has offered an alternate explanation as to why David couldn't use Saul's sword, but he could use Goliath's. If you understand his saying to Saul that he can't use the sword because he has to first practice with it, well then that should apply to Goliath's sword as well. But if you understand his word to mean "I have trained to kill Goliath and it does not include using your sword" then that does not preclude the use of Goliath's because that might have been the plan he had.

  14. #29
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    There’s no evidence that he didn’t carry his head in a sack back to Jerusalem.

    Thereís no evidence that he didnít carry his head in a sack back to Jerusalem.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

  15. #30

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    How did Sampson destroy the main pillars of a building when he was blind and of old age?
    Did he practice and train daily for the moment?

    Job 34:20 In a moment shall they die, and the people shall be troubled at midnight, and pass away: and the mighty shall be taken away without hand.

    How did Sampson destroy the main pillars of a building when he was blind and of old age?
    Did he practice and train daily for the moment?

    Job 34:20 In a moment shall they die, and the people shall be troubled at midnight, and pass away: and the mighty shall be taken away without hand.

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