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Thread: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

  1. #31

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    I realize from the responses that many are having difficulty answering a question that is not there in black and white.

    There are three levels of questions. (Biggs structure of learning outcome -- SOLO).

    1. Surface learning -- repetition of facts and principles.

    (just because this is the most superficial does not make it unimportant. You need to know the facts before you can relate them)

    For example, the Bible says that David went back and forth from the camp to his father's sheep. That is a simple fact. The Bible also says that Goliath challenged the camp of the Israelites for 40 days. Again, a simple fact. No one disputed either one.

    2. Relational learning -- these questions require you to integrate two separate pieces of information.

    For example, David's brother says that he is spying out the situation, David does not deny this, instead he justifies himself saying "is there not a cause". We know that David has been going back and forth and that during this time Goliath has been challenging the camp every day. We also know that he tells Saul he can't use his armor because he has not "proved them" which could indicate that he hasn't trained with them. By integrating these pieces of information together we can deduce that David has in fact spied out the situation and trained to kill Goliath and that his training does not include using Saul's armor.

    3. Elaborative learning -- this requires the learner to go beyond the given knowledge or ideas.

    For example, after killing Goliath and cutting off his head and lifting it up it says the Philistines fled. We can elaborate on that, knowing that we have a primitive "fight or flight" response. You can know that being both confused and terrified would cause one to run whereas thinking you can get an easy victory would cause one to fight. When the Philistines fled the Israelite army pursued them and the battle was referred to as "a slaughter". Winning the battle psychologically goes a very long way to winning it in reality. There is no discussion of this in the Bible, yet bringing in our human experience and understanding would allow us to elaborate as to how valuable it was that the Philistines fled.

    We could also elaborate that Sun Tzu and the Art of War states the basic principle of "not underestimating your opponent" and the entire motif of "David vs Goliath" is an underestimation of David. The Bible is very consistent that David is a mighty man of war, and yet everyone depicts him as a little shepherd boy not even realizing that was a mighty man of war who had the full assurance he would kill Goliath.

    So if elaborative thinking is beyond what you are comfortable with, have no fear, you may be more comfortable with another thread.

    I operate on the belief that Colossians 2:3 is a trustworthy word.

  2. #32

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    The prophets are recording the path of a nation which follows a man king.

    David and Solomon added some great writings in the bible in Proverbs and Songs these are some of the greatest writings in the book.

    The God of Abraham allowed his people to have a man king yet warned them it was there doom.

    Instead it was to there ruin as though there may be many a man who has a heart of faith like David yet he is still a man.

    So that as the good kinds pass on the evil creeps in where it can and the nation becomes just as any other nation.

    You people who choose a king and yet the king is no greater than the servant, therefor it is a evil and vain decision to choose a king.

  3. #33

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggie View Post
    The prophets are recording the path of a nation which follows a man king.

    David and Solomon added some great writings in the bible in Proverbs and Songs these are some of the greatest writings in the book.

    The God of Abraham allowed his people to have a man king yet warned them it was there doom.

    Instead it was to there ruin as though there may be many a man who has a heart of faith like David yet he is still a man.

    So that as the good kinds pass on the evil creeps in where it can and the nation becomes just as any other nation.

    You people who choose a king and yet the king is no greater than the servant, therefor it is a evil and vain decision to choose a king.
    11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: he will take your sons, and appoint them unto him, [a]for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and they shall run before his chariots; 12 and he will appoint them unto him for captains of thousands, and captains of fifties; and he will set some to plow his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and the instruments of his chariots. 13 And he will take your daughters to be perfumers, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. 14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. 15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his [b]officers, and to his servants. 16 And he will take your men-servants, and your maid-servants, and your goodliest [c]young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your flocks: and ye shall be his servants. 18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king whom ye shall have chosen you; and Jehovah will not answer you in that day.

    19 But the people refused to hearken unto the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay: but we will have a king over us, 20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.


    They want someone else to go and fight their battles for them and in exchange their kids can be slaves.

  4. #34

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    I realize from the responses that many are having difficulty answering a question that is not there in black and white...So if elaborative thinking is beyond what you are comfortable with, have no fear, you may be more comfortable with another thread.

    I operate on the belief that Colossians 2:3 is a trustworthy word.
    This idea that David would appear to be a harmless shepherd as part of his strategy to defeat Goliath, and then to appear as a bloody monster carrying around a severed head to cause the Philistine army to flee is pure speculation. Surely, if David did this as his strategy we would see this behavior manifested in other examples. Of course he pretended to be mad when he was brought before the King Achish of Gath, but that alone is not enough evidence.

    After all, we are saying the he understood human psychology enough that he was able to manipulate the Philistines. Surely he would have done that going forward, of course we see him do that with Saul --

    5*And David said unto Jonathan, Behold, to-morrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to sit with the king at meat: but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field unto the third day at even. 6*If thy father miss me at all, then say, David earnestly asked leave of me that he might run to Beth-lehem his city; for it is the yearly sacrifice there for all the family. 7*If he say thus, It is well; thy servant shall have peace: but if he be wroth, then know that evil is determined by him. 1Sam 20:5-7

    So, OK, that is one example, and then of course his son did this as well when he figured out who was lying and which was the real mother of the baby.

    But the crux of this argument is that David would spend 40 days putting together a strategy and training for it. That is patient. Did he ever exhibit that kind of Patience in working out a plan? Except of course in his instructions concerning Joab (1Kings 2:5-6) and his instructions in dealing with Shimei (1Kings 2:8-9)

  5. #35
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    Can you post some of your findings about the hair length of ancient Philistine warriors? -- ChangedbyHim

    I don't. Wouldn't matter. You could never prove that Goliath didn't have hair long enough to hold. That is not the point. The point is that it is extremely unlikely, if not impossible. Not just if the hair were too short, but also because the hair would not have held up during several hours of sword fighting.

    On the other hand the neck would work regardless of how long his hair was, regardless of how inconvenient the helmet made it, and it would have been the perfect handhold during the sword fight, holding up for hours.
    Cool yer engines. You are loved, really.
    Maybe a quick and easily accessed inquiry into "ancient" cultures in Og's geographical location (Assyria)would answer the root of your question.
    That inquiry will by default include hair styles for men and women, and the reasons for their strict adherence to them, whether dressed for battle or working or leisure.

  6. #36

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
    Cool yer engines. You are loved, really.
    Maybe a quick and easily accessed inquiry into "ancient" cultures in Og's geographical location (Assyria)would answer the root of your question.
    That inquiry will by default include hair styles for men and women, and the reasons for their strict adherence to them, whether dressed for battle or working or leisure.
    I have seen what the helmets look like, they fully cover the head. So David would not have known before hand if he had hair that he could grab and he would have had to take the helmet off.

    Only commanders had full armor, so Goliath having full armor was not typical. Also, the shield bearer carried a shield to protect his entire body. It was generally for archers to protect them while they shot their arrows, I suppose that since he was throwing a javelin he needed a shield bearer.

    But I responded in greater detail later. "Champions" often break the rules, so even if the fashion for commanders was a short haircut that doesn't prove Goliath didn't have long hair, he could have been a rebel. On the other hand if the fashion was a long top knot that also wouldn't prove that Goliath had hair, he could have been bald.

    What we do know for sure is that David didn't know just from looking at him, and you have to remove the helmet if he did hold him by the hair.

    We also know that he held the head in one hand, because it says so. I understand the verse saying that he held the head returning from the battle to indicate that he used the head as a shield throughout the entire battle. Others have said that he might have fought the battle for several hours and then returned to gather up the head.

    It seems to me that carrying the severed head of Goliath as your "shield" would scare off anyone who wanted to challenge David. Not only would he look terrifying but they would be immediately reminded that he is the one that killed Goliath.

  7. #37
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    I have seen what the helmets look like, they fully cover the head. So David would not have known before hand if he had hair that he could grab and he would have had to take the helmet off.


    Only commanders had full armor, so Goliath having full armor was not typical. Also, the shield bearer carried a shield to protect his entire body. It was generally for archers to protect them while they shot their arrows, I suppose that since he was throwing a javelin he needed a shield bearer.


    But I responded in greater detail later. "Champions" often break the rules, so even if the fashion for commanders was a short haircut that doesn't prove Goliath didn't have long hair, he could have been a rebel. On the other hand if the fashion was a long top knot that also wouldn't prove that Goliath had hair, he could have been bald.


    What we do know for sure is that David didn't know just from looking at him, and you have to remove the helmet if he did hold him by the hair.


    We also know that he held the head in one hand, because it says so. I understand the verse saying that he held the head returning from the battle to indicate that he used the head as a shield throughout the entire battle. Others have said that he might have fought the battle for several hours and then returned to gather up the head.


    It seems to me that carrying the severed head of Goliath as your "shield" would scare off anyone who wanted to challenge David. Not only would he look terrifying but they would be immediately reminded that he is the one that killed Goliath.
    Your assumptions about what David knew for sure, what your fellows here know for sure, and what the generations upon generations of 'studious-unassuming' biblical scholars knew for sure, well it is insulting, insulting not just to them but more importantly to the One that they all serve.

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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    I don't suggest this time, but plea with you to do a quick and easily accessed inquiry into "ancient" cultures in Og's and Goliath's geographical territory (Philistines) who inhabited Gaza, Lebanon, Palestine/Israel, Jordan and Syria. The query of that ancient culture will answer the root of your question.
    ....That query will also by default include hair styles for men and women, and the reasons for their strict adherence to them, whether dressed for battle or working or leisure.
    Last edited by Jacob's Ladder; Sep 3rd 2019 at 02:20 AM. Reason: correction

  9. #39
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Originally Posted by znpaaneah

    I have seen what the helmets look like, they fully cover the head. So David would not have known before hand if he had hair that he could grab and he would have had to take the helmet off.

    Z, do you base this statement on artist painting/pictures, or have you done that historic/archeological study of the Philistines and/or their armor and what the helmets looked like, how they were adorned and how they were secured to the head?

    Meaning... if you were 9 feet tall and I cut your head off, I'd reach right down and pick up your head no problem... how? I wouldn't even care how long your hair was, why I wouldn't even be concerned IF you even had hair, picking your head up would be no problem.
    Slug1--out

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  10. #40

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Z, do you base this statement on artist painting/pictures, or have you done that historic/archeological study of the Philistines and/or their armor and what the helmets looked like, how they were adorned and how they were secured to the head?

    Meaning... if you were 9 feet tall and I cut your head off, I'd reach right down and pick up your head no problem... how? I wouldn't even care how long your hair was, why I wouldn't even be concerned IF you even had hair, picking your head up would be no problem.
    My interest was based on the verse that says David returned from the slaughter of the Philistines holding the head in one hand. I understood that to mean that he had used the head as a shield with one hand and Goliath's sword with the other during this battle for the last few hours.

    There is a lot of discussion about easy google searches and detailed archaeological digs. I have done many searches prior to posting this question. However, I soon realized that you could never conclusively answer the question that way, not without a discovery specific to Goliath.

    But there is more than one way to skin a cat. Several have pointed out that "you can never know" since it isn't written in the Bible, and that was that. Simple repetition of facts, the fact is not written down so nothing to repeat.

    Others suggest looking at the archaeological record, but how assyrian men wear their hair will never tell us if Goliath was bald or a rebel. Likewise, even if Goliath's hair were long enough to hold it would never prove that David didn't hold it by the neck, or conversely if Goliath's neck were too thick for David's hands.

    So I have come at this from a very different angle. Is there evidence that David had planned out his fight strategically. It certainly looks that way on the surface.

    1. He was going back and forth from the camp during the 40 days that Goliath was challenging them.

    2. His brother accused him of spying and he doesn't deny it, rather he says "is there not a cause"

    3. He refuses to use Saul's armor and sword saying "he hadn't proved them", yet during the battle he uses Goliath's sword and head. So then, I understand this term "haven't proved them" to indicate he has trained to kill Goliath and defeat the Philistines and Saul's armor is not part of the plan.

    4. Appearing as a harmless shepherd boy coming out to fight Goliath is "Art of War" 101. We see him also pretend to be mad when brought before the king of Gath, so we know this type of thinking is practiced by him.

    5. To immediately transform himself into a bloody monster, holding up Goliath's head, and then chasing them while holding a severed head is also psychological warfare, inciting them to flee when they have to make that instantaneous "fight or flight" response. We also know that this kind of psychological manipulation is in his arsenal because we saw him use it against Saul to determine if Saul was out to kill him.

    6. We also know that planning out your attack on Goliath over 40 days is also common to him. We saw him do the same thing with Joab and Shemai.

    All of this has led me to reevaluate Jesse. When speaking of David he is called "the son of Jesse". This question was a major question during the battle with the Philistines -- Saul asked "whose son is this?" All of which supports the impression that David was getting superior training. We also see this kind of higher level thinking with David's son Solomon when he determines whose baby it is.

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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    My interest was based on the verse that says David returned from the slaughter of the Philistines holding the head in one hand.
    Could you please quote this verse?
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

  12. #42

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Could you please quote this verse?
    1Samuel 17:57 And as David returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, Abner took him, and brought him before Saul with the head of the Philistine in his hand.

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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    1Samuel 17:57 And as David returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, Abner took him, and brought him before Saul with the head of the Philistine in his hand.
    Consider this, again it relates to understanding the ancient culture of the folks who we are reading about:

    When this event took place, David was under the Mosaic law (Mosaic "culture"), and he practiced it to the limit of his ability.
    What I mean is, Mosaic law forbid His people to touch any dead thing.
    I take that to mean that David carried the head in a sack or other container, definitely not by grasping it's hair.
    And also why I can only see David lifting that same head by the use of an instrument (probably the same sword he used to decapitate the head with)

  14. #44

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
    Consider this, again it relates to understanding the ancient culture of the folks who we are reading about:

    When this event took place, David was under the Mosaic law (Mosaic "culture"), and he practiced it to the limit of his ability.
    What I mean is, Mosaic law forbid His people to touch any dead thing.
    I take that to mean that David carried the head in a sack or other container, definitely not by grasping it's hair.
    And also why I can only see David lifting that same head by the use of an instrument (probably the same sword he used to decapitate the head with)
    Num 19:11 He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days:

    How would David cut off Goliath's head, hold it up for all to see, and never touch the dead body of Goliath?

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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    Num 19:11 He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days:

    How would David cut off Goliath's head, hold it up for all to see, and never touch the dead body of Goliath?
    Again, he probably used the same sword to lift the head that he used to separate the head from it's body with.
    Because of the verse you just quoted Num 19:11.
    Num 19:11 was one of the many laws(over 600) in the culture that David lived under and tried to be obedient to, to the best of his ability.

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