Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 85

Thread: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

  1. #46

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
    Again, he probably used the same sword to lift the head that he used to separate the head from it's body with.
    Because of the verse you just quoted Num 19:11.
    Num 19:11 was one of the many laws(over 600) in the culture that David lived under and tried to be obedient to, to the best of his ability.
    Being unclean was not sinful. We quarantine people as a precaution. It is extremely unlikely that someone could sever a head and not be splattered with blood.

  2. #47

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Abner took him and brought him before Saul, with the head of the Philistine in his hand; to give an answer to the king's question concerning him, who could best do it himself; and that Saul might have the opportunity of rewarding him, according to his merit, for so great a piece of service he had done for Israel, of which the head in his hand was a sufficient proof. Gill's commentary

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Earth, still.
    Posts
    136

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    Being unclean was not sinful. We quarantine people as a precaution.
    Well, I agree that it is not sinful for us, but it was however sinful for them under their Mosaic culture if they submitted to what we now call the old covenant.
    ....Sin for them was covered or excused/forgiven by ritual practices prescribe by the Mosaic law/their culture.
    What I mean is, in the case of this particular sin (being unclean by touching the blood of a dead thing) the prescription for covering that particular sin was as you already mentioned: "ritually" being kept outside of the community for a prescribed amount of time.
    ....So yeah, it was a sin for them (if we do understand and not assume upon that ancientculture).
    We can still with some effort on our part understand that culture, if we either read carefully from Exodus through to Deuteronomy, or even a quicker way to understand is to find and read one or more proven scholarly exposition of the Mosaic law and ancient Hebrewculture.

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    It is extremely unlikely that someone could sever a head and not be splattered with blood.
    I agree and I admit that I do "assume" that David knew this too but took every precaution to at least try to avoid as less contact with big-guy's blood as possible.
    ....But, in the end what was done was done, and I have no doubt(assumptions) that after this bloody mess was over, David did follow the prescribed rituals to cleanse himself from his violation/sin/trespass of the "law" that God gave to his culture (the Mosaic laws).

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    Abner took him and brought him before Saul, with the head of the Philistine in his hand; to give an answer to the king's question concerning him, who could best do it himself; and that Saul might have the opportunity of rewarding him, according to his merit, for so great a piece of service he had done for Israel, of which the head in his hand was a sufficient proof. Gill's commentary
    I am not sure what you are pointing at here ?

  4. #49

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    So this question and discussion has brought us to the key question.

    "Whose son is this?" The evidence is quite strong that David was a very strategic thinker. He understood the mind of his foe, and understood that various actions would induce desired reactions that would reveal the heart.

    Jesse's grandfather was Boaz who married Ruth. It was Boaz that realized that God looks on the heart (the book of Ruth begins with Ruth saying "your God will be my God and your people will be my people". That was her heart. She had two statuses, one of a moabites which should not enter the congregation for ten generations, the other was the widow of an Israelite, in which case the nearest relative should take her in. How do you then judge? You judge her based on her heart, in her heart she was the widow of an Israelite).

    Acts repeats the David was the Son of Jesse. This term "son" in the new testament is significant and means more than simply child. It refers to someone who has been trained to take over the Father's estate. Jesse trained David. He trained him to kill the lion and bear. He trained him to play the harp. He helped David prepare to Kill Goliath and more importantly, defeat the Philistines.

    But that creates a problem with the one verse that makes people think Jesse thought less of David than his other sons.

    And Samuel said to Jesse, Are here all your children? And he said, There remains yet the youngest, and, behold, he keeps the sheep. And Samuel said to Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come here.

    His father and the men in the village thought less of him than of his dark, tall brothers: at all events, Jesse thought him of too little account to present to Samuel. Ellicot commentary

    So how do you reconcile the two? I would argue that this is a poor interpretation that is based on a single verse. No Bible verse is of its own interpretation, the rule is that you have to use many verses to understand one.

    So here is a different interpretation.

    All the elders in Bethlehem were scared when Samuel came because they knew about the dispute between Samuel and Saul and they didn't want to get in the middle of that. There is no mention that Jesse trembled, but we should realize that he also was fully aware of the high stakes. We should also assume that Jesse knew that David had killed the lion and bear (David had probably skinned them and taken trophies of them, just as he did with Goliath and his armor). Jesse also knew that his son was nationally renowned harp player. But, I would suspect that Jesse had learned from Jacob's mistake with Joseph. He didn't want to incite the older brothers to jealousy. This meeting with Samuel was high stakes poker. Jesse knew Samuel was coming to find a replacement for Saul. Jesse knew that his youngest son was quite special (which is why David was the one he sent to spy out the situation with Goliath and not one of the four older brothers who also had not gone to battle). If Samuel was sent from God to anoint David then he wouldn't be fooled. But by keeping David away, and then saying he is the youngest and just keeps the sheep his sons cannot think that Jesse has somehow given David an advantage. We know there was some friction between David and his oldest brother, the one who was angry that he was coming to spy out the situation.

  5. #50

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
    I am not sure what you are pointing at here ?
    The Bible says "the Philistine's head" but we should all understand that it was Goliath's head as Gill says, it is the proof that he is the one that killed him. Remember, the King offered a big reward to anyone who killed him, you can imagine that David is not going to allow someone else to take the head and take credit.

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Earth, still.
    Posts
    136

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    So this question and discussion has brought us to the key question.

    "Whose son is this?" The evidence is quite strong that David was a very strategic thinker. He understood the mind of his foe, and understood that various actions would induce desired reactions that would reveal the heart.

    Jesse's grandfather was Boaz who married Ruth. It was Boaz that realized that God looks on the heart (the book of Ruth begins with Ruth saying "your God will be my God and your people will be my people". That was her heart. She had two statuses, one of a moabites which should not enter the congregation for ten generations, the other was the widow of an Israelite, in which case the nearest relative should take her in. How do you then judge? You judge her based on her heart, in her heart she was the widow of an Israelite).

    Acts repeats the David was the Son of Jesse. This term "son" in the new testament is significant and means more than simply child. It refers to someone who has been trained to take over the Father's estate. Jesse trained David. He trained him to kill the lion and bear. He trained him to play the harp. He helped David prepare to Kill Goliath and more importantly, defeat the Philistines.

    But that creates a problem with the one verse that makes people think Jesse thought less of David than his other sons.

    And Samuel said to Jesse, Are here all your children? And he said, There remains yet the youngest, and, behold, he keeps the sheep. And Samuel said to Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come here.

    His father and the men in the village thought less of him than of his dark, tall brothers: at all events, Jesse thought him of too little account to present to Samuel. Ellicot commentary

    So how do you reconcile the two? I would argue that this is a poor interpretation that is based on a single verse. No Bible verse is of its own interpretation, the rule is that you have to use many verses to understand one.

    So here is a different interpretation.

    All the elders in Bethlehem were scared when Samuel came because they knew about the dispute between Samuel and Saul and they didn't want to get in the middle of that. There is no mention that Jesse trembled, but we should realize that he also was fully aware of the high stakes. We should also assume that Jesse knew that David had killed the lion and bear (David had probably skinned them and taken trophies of them, just as he did with Goliath and his armor). Jesse also knew that his son was nationally renowned harp player. But, I would suspect that Jesse had learned from Jacob's mistake with Joseph. He didn't want to incite the older brothers to jealousy. This meeting with Samuel was high stakes poker. Jesse knew Samuel was coming to find a replacement for Saul. Jesse knew that his youngest son was quite special (which is why David was the one he sent to spy out the situation with Goliath and not one of the four older brothers who also had not gone to battle). If Samuel was sent from God to anoint David then he wouldn't be fooled. But by keeping David away, and then saying he is the youngest and just keeps the sheep his sons cannot think that Jesse has somehow given David an advantage. We know there was some friction between David and his oldest brother, the one who was angry that he was coming to spy out the situation.
    Even our biblical patriarchs (including all of the ones that you mentioned above) have faults and did sin over and over again.
    But our Creator uses those faults to work toward the good of His beloved.
    (Beloved=the ones who sin, but yet agree with God they sin or have sinned, and at least try to honestly repent)



    I do not understand your revised question now yet though:
    So this question and discussion has brought us to the key question.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Earth, still.
    Posts
    136

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    The Bible says "the Philistine's head" but we should all understand that it was Goliath's head as Gill says, it is the proof that he is the one that killed him. Remember, the King offered a big reward to anyone who killed him, you can imagine that David is not going to allow someone else to take the head and take credit.

    I can understand your line of thought here, and your feeling as a result of your thoughts.
    But meaning no insult to you here; I prefer to have my thoughts led by documented information, and more and more have learned to rarely allow feelings to lead my thoughts.

    I apologize that my answer here could be interpreted as an insult, but it was definitely not offered by me in that spirit, it is just that I do not read you clearly enough to try to earnestly answer the proposition of this particular question of your's.
    Last edited by Jacob's Ladder; Sep 2nd 2019 at 09:12 PM. Reason: grammar

  8. #53

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Jesse knew David only as a boy who tended to the sheep, and did not bring David to be chosen by Samuel for war.

    The Spirit of the Lord was upon David only from this time on..

    1 Samuel 16:11 And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.
    12 And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the Lord said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he.
    13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

    The brothers of David also only knew David as a shepherd boy, they spoke hard and bravely to David who we see never spoke back bravely to them...

    1 Samuel 17:28 And Eliab his eldest brother heard when he spake unto the men; and Eliab's anger was kindled against David, and he said, Why camest thou down hither? and with whom hast thou left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know thy pride, and the naughtiness of thine heart; for thou art come down that thou mightest see the battle.

    Saul seeing David also knew this boy cannot do battle, David shared how he had managed to kill these beasts, because he had now received the Lords Spirit, Saul believed him and sent him..

    1 Samuel 17:33 And Saul said to David, Thou art not able to go against this Philistine to fight with him: for thou art but a youth, and he a man of war from his youth.
    34 And David said unto Saul, Thy servant kept his father's sheep, and there came a lion, and a bear, and took a lamb out of the flock:
    35 And I went out after him, and smote him, and delivered it out of his mouth: and when he arose against me, I caught him by his beard, and smote him, and slew him.
    36 Thy servant slew both the lion and the bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be as one of them, seeing he hath defied the armies of the living God.
    37 David said moreover, The Lord that delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine. And Saul said unto David, Go, and the Lord be with thee

    David challenges the Philistine by the Lord God, so all the earth knows there is a God in Israel, this is why David had no sword or armour, as He had the Lord who pierces through all armour..

    1 Samuel 17:45 Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.
    46 This day will the Lord deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.
    47 And all this assembly shall know that the Lord saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give you into our hands.

    David defeated the giant, and the Philistines fled just from seeing this terrifying giant destroyed, they knew by God. The men of Israel, not David persued and killed the Philistines. David after this took the head of the Philistine, bringing it to Jerusalem. Asked by Saul, David went with the head, in hi hand, in whatever way it might be by then, all this occured after all was done...

    1 Samuel 17:50 So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.
    51 Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled.
    52 And the men of Israel and of Judah arose, and shouted, and pursued the Philistines, until thou come to the valley, and to the gates of Ekron. And the wounded of the Philistines fell down by the way to Shaaraim, even unto Gath, and unto Ekron.
    53 And the children of Israel returned from chasing after the Philistines, and they spoiled their tents.
    54 And David took the head of the Philistine, and brought it to Jerusalem; but he put his armour in his tent.
    55 And when Saul saw David go forth against the Philistine, he said unto Abner, the captain of the host, Abner, whose son is this youth? And Abner said, As thy soul liveth, O king, I cannot tell.
    56 And the king said, Enquire thou whose son the stripling is.
    57 And as David returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, Abner took him, and brought him before Saul with the head of the Philistine in his hand.

  9. #54

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
    I do not understand your revised question now yet though:
    I'll summarize. Why does it matter how David held the head? Well, in the beginning I pointed out that if you hold the head from the neck you have to sever it at the base where the collar bone is, otherwise there isn't enough neck to hold. It is very hard to imagine a young man rushing up to kill Goliath would be thinking about that unless it was the plan he had from the get go and was his strategy. So the real question is which is the true David -- ruddy young man, shepherd boy, who is typically portrayed. Or is it the trained man of war, who had been spying out Goliath and training to kill him for 40 days, who portrayed himself as a shepherd boy to get Goliath to underestimate him, and then portrayed himself as a bloody monster with a severed head in one hand to induce the Philistines to flee. The man who killed a lion and a bear with his bare hands. The man who killed 200 philistines as a bride price. The man who all the other men of war in Israel quickly respected as their Captain.

    I believe the true David is the second one. But if you believe that, then this brings up the question about Jesse. If Jesse is the one who trained him then how do you explain his treating him as an after thought when Samuel comes. Typically this is understood to mean the Jesse did not regard David very highly, but if that isn't true then it means Jesse was in a game of high stakes poker with Samuel. He is not going to risk enraging the King of Israel unless he knows for sure that God has sent Samuel.

  10. #55

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by gordon777 View Post
    Jesse knew David only as a boy who tended to the sheep, and did not bring David to be chosen by Samuel for war.
    In my experience I have never seen that. I have seen young men and women (teenagers, 20 years old) who were great champions (Tiger Woods, Serena Williams, etc) but their fathers definitely knew who they were.

    Your interpretation is based on a single verse. Mine is based on every verse mentioning Jesse including the ones you use.

  11. #56

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Jesse knew David through his own eyes and through all who knew David, his brothers, and they all cncluded the same, David was inferior to them, from all verses.

    Only after David was brought before Samuel and annointed, did David change to be filled with the Spirit of God, and then to be defended by God from the lion and the bear.

    Afterwards Jesse saw this change in David, as he became important then with the King, and afterwards became the King, only because God was with him from that day and on.

    All is simple straight forward, as is all the scriptures, and to be caught up on one point we might not like, means we wont be free to learn all of the entire bible, and walk in its truth as we think it is wrong, so we be wrong in life instead.

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Earth, still.
    Posts
    136

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Okay, I get it now, thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    I'll summarize. Why does it matter how David held the head? Well, in the beginning I pointed out that if you hold the head from the neck you have to sever it at the base where the collar bone is, otherwise there isn't enough neck to hold. It is very hard to imagine a young man rushing up to kill Goliath would be thinking about that unless it was the plan he had from the get go and was his strategy. So the real question is which is the true David -- ruddy young man, shepherd boy, who is typically portrayed. Or is it the trained man of war, who had been spying out Goliath and training to kill him for 40 days, who portrayed himself as a shepherd boy to get Goliath to underestimate him, and then portrayed himself as a bloody monster with a severed head in one hand to induce the Philistines to flee. The man who killed a lion and a bear with his bare hands. The man who killed 200 philistines as a bride price. The man who all the other men of war in Israel quickly respected as their Captain.
    There is background to David's life recorded in OT and even a few in NT which describe him through the eyes of God (most importantly) but also through the eyes of his fellows back then too.
    ....From all of those recorded descriptions; I personally compose an image of David as cunning and shrewd, extremely honest, very contemplative, having wisdom and discernment at a level well above his peers and even above his people's leaders and judges.
    ....As for your question about the "true David" I'll try to share my take on that below the next quote.

    I have not found the answer documented so, I assume David would have used the same sword that he used to sever the head as a device to also pick that head.
    And used a sack or other container to carry back home to present it to his King and his people.
    ....As for the point where the big-guy's head was severed, again I do not find it documented so, I assume since the giant was dead, that the giant's armor could have or would have been removed or manipulated to accommodate any choice of where to initiate and complete the severing.

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    I believe the true David is the second one. But if you believe that, then this brings up the question about Jesse. If Jesse is the one who trained him then how do you explain his treating him as an after thought when Samuel comes. Typically this is understood to mean the Jesse did not regard David very highly, but if that isn't true then it means Jesse was in a game of high stakes poker with Samuel. He is not going to risk enraging the King of Israel unless he knows for sure that God has sent Samuel.
    From the book of Genesis to the book of Revelation a shadow of Christ, Jesus Christ was portrayed by a physical man being born through the seed of a woman. That physical man was David, but he was the shadow of the second Adam (a reborn Adam, not a shadow of Adam)
    David was from the tribe of Juda, the promised Christ was prophesied to come from the house of David/the tribe of David (Juda).
    ....The promised Christ was also prophesied to come from the seed of a woman (not a man), Mary was that woman, it is documented that the seed was planted in Mary by/trough the Holy Spirit of God. There are multiple genealogies documented in the OT % NT that try to decipher the meanings behind the mysterious selection of blood lines to bring forth this promised seed, but for me I just cut trough all of that and accept that David was a perfect shadow of the promised Christ (Jesus Christ).
    ....Jesus portrayed himself to pharisees as the son of David and at the same time in the same sentence of that description also portrayed Himself as the Lord of David (as David did also recorded in the Psalms if I remember correctly) Jesus portrayed Himself in that way to not just trip-up and immediately expose the murderous hypocrisy of the pharisees/Israels leaders, but also to reveal Himself as the promised Christ to the remnant of God's beloved that were in earshot of Him saying those things to the pharisees.

    You can find much more expounded explanations than what I have mustered here by doing a word search in your bible (any translation) a word search of the word 'son or heir of David' and including a word search of 'Son of man' too.

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Earth, still.
    Posts
    136

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    In summary:
    The physical man David, was a shadow of Christ Jesus.

    I do not think that David new this, and David's people and their preceding generations probably did not recognize this either.
    Well his people did not recognize this until Jesus came to rebuked and exposed their leaders/
    the pharisees murderous hypocrisy.

    The physical-David's people who did recognize this, they were God's chosen/elect and in reality the true Israelite's (the Spiritual-David's people), not the lost or fake ones.

  14. #59

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by gordon777 View Post
    Jesse knew David through his own eyes and through all who knew David, his brothers, and they all cncluded the same, David was inferior to them, from all verses.

    Only after David was brought before Samuel and annointed, did David change to be filled with the Spirit of God, and then to be defended by God from the lion and the bear.

    Afterwards Jesse saw this change in David, as he became important then with the King, and afterwards became the King, only because God was with him from that day and on.

    All is simple straight forward, as is all the scriptures, and to be caught up on one point we might not like, means we wont be free to learn all of the entire bible, and walk in its truth as we think it is wrong, so we be wrong in life instead.
    OK, there you go, magic. What is the verse reference that tells you that the lion and bear were killed after he was anointed? Was it the anointing the also transformed him into a nationally renowned harp player? That is what made him into the one that could kill 200 Philistines? One wonders why we even need fathers in the first place. So much for the commandment with a promise to honor your father and mother and it will be well with you and you will live long. David certainly honored all in authority, but that is nothing compared to the magic oil they poured on his head. I got it. No need to repeat this I fully understand what you think.

  15. #60

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Wow! What a post. Great arguments here. This is the second post today that has me thinking about things in God's Word I didn't see before.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Question about David vs.Goliath
    By brianesquire in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: Feb 1st 2014, 01:04 AM
  2. David and Goliath
    By menJesus in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: Jul 31st 2009, 11:59 AM
  3. Noah's Ark,David And Goliath & Jesus
    By Tom Zart in forum Poetry
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: May 25th 2009, 05:15 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •