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Thread: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

  1. #61

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    "What is the verse reference that tells you that the lion and bear were killed after he was anointed? Was it the anointing the also transformed him into a nationally renowned harp player? That is what made him into the one that could kill 200 Philistines? One wonders why we even need fathers in the first place. So much for the commandment with a promise to honor your father and mother and it will be well with you and you will live long. David certainly honored all in authority, but that is nothing compared to the magic oil they poured on his head."

    Seen as example and revealing how Samson dealt with the lion when the Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily, we learn then, that is how it was for David, who received the Spirit of the Lord mightily also, this is how David did with the lion, bear and Goliath after all..

    1 Samuel 17:37 David said moreover, The Lord that delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine. And Saul said unto David, Go, and the Lord be with thee.

    Judges 14:5 Then went Samson down, and his father and his mother, to Timnath, and came to the vineyards of Timnath: and, behold, a young lion roared against him.
    6 And the Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done.

    It depends who your Father is, and your Mother, then the faithful in this way are blessed with FAITHFUL Abraham..



    Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

    Galatians 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

  2. #62
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    1Samuel 17:57 And as David returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, Abner took him, and brought him before Saul with the head of the Philistine in his hand.
    This does not say that he fought in battle while holding it and carried it in his hand all the way back to Jerusalem, as you are suggesting. Verse 54 says: And David took the head of the Philistine and brought it to Jerusalem. Verse 57 simply says that he held it in his hand before Saul. It's important that you don't infer things that aren't in Scripture.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

  3. #63

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    This does not say that he fought in battle while holding it and carried it in his hand all the way back to Jerusalem, as you are suggesting. Verse 54 says: And David took the head of the Philistine and brought it to Jerusalem. Verse 57 simply says that he held it in his hand before Saul. It's important that you don't infer things that aren't in Scripture.
    That is an important point, when we do make interpretations we have to remember where they were derived from and also realize there are different possible interpretations.

    We are told that whoever kills Goliath gets a big reward from King Saul. We can conclude from this that the head will be the proof necessary for David to collect that reward. We are not told this directly, but it can certainly explain why he would carry the severed head into Saul's tent.

    We are also told that after killing Goliath the Philistine army fled and that the Israelites pursued them. This battle is referred to as a slaughter. We are told that David returned from the slaughter. So we know that David was with the Israel army in pursuing and killing the Philistines. We are also told that "as David returned from the slaughter" he is taken before Saul, "with the head of the Philistine in his hand".

    Now we are not told if he has held this head the entire time, or if after returning from the Slaughter he then went and found the head. I think, given the value of the head, that he kept hold of it the entire time. But that is an interpretation.

    However, it is impossible to look at the scripture without inferring things that aren't there. Artists did this when they drew pictures of David holding up Goliath's head by the hair. That is an inference. Saying that David didn't hold the head during the battle is every bit as much an inference as saying he did.

  4. #64
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    That is an important point, when we do make interpretations we have to remember where they were derived from and also realize there are different possible interpretations.

    We are told that whoever kills Goliath gets a big reward from King Saul. We can conclude from this that the head will be the proof necessary for David to collect that reward. We are not told this directly, but it can certainly explain why he would carry the severed head into Saul's tent.

    We are also told that after killing Goliath the Philistine army fled and that the Israelites pursued them. This battle is referred to as a slaughter. We are told that David returned from the slaughter. So we know that David was with the Israel army in pursuing and killing the Philistines. We are also told that "as David returned from the slaughter" he is taken before Saul, "with the head of the Philistine in his hand".

    Now we are not told if he has held this head the entire time, or if after returning from the Slaughter he then went and found the head. I think, given the value of the head, that he kept hold of it the entire time. But that is an interpretation.

    However, it is impossible to look at the scripture without inferring things that aren't there. Artists did this when they drew pictures of David holding up Goliath's head by the hair. That is an inference. Saying that David didn't hold the head during the battle is every bit as much an inference as saying he did.
    Interpretations are based on what is written. Assumptions are based on what is not written.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

  5. #65

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Interpretations are based on what is written. Assumptions are based on what is not written.
    Yes, what is written is that David went into Saul's tent holding Goliath's head. My interpretation is that he did this because that head was very valuable, Saul had offered a very high reward for it (again that is what is written), and that is why I don't think he let go of it. The idea that he would leave it lying about for hours while they fought a battle and hope to find it when he got back, well that is an assumption not based on any verse.

  6. #66
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    Yes, what is written is that David went into Saul's tent holding Goliath's head. My interpretation is that he did this because that head was very valuable, Saul had offered a very high reward for it (again that is what is written), and that is why I don't think he let go of it. The idea that he would leave it lying about for hours while they fought a battle and hope to find it when he got back, well that is an assumption not based on any verse.
    He easily could have secured it in the camp. You frame things to support your argument. You are discussing an area that the Bible is silent on. Therefore, if one must speculate, it is best to do so with the most likely scenario. I don't think David carrying around the giant's head in his hand while doing battle is a likely scenario. But since the Bible is silent, it really doesn't matter much either way. My interest in the thread has very little to do with what actually happened (if God wanted me to know it would be in the text), but more to do with how you reach your conclusions.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

  7. #67

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    He easily could have secured it in the camp.
    Really? How? David was not in the army. He didn't have a tent to put it in. He was there dropping off supplies.

    The account is quite precise. The two armies were on opposite sides of a valley. Goliath and David met between them to fight. When David kills Goliath he cuts off his head, the Philistines see that their champion is dead and flee. When they flee the army of Israel rises up and pursues them. This is the most critical moment in the battle and you are saying that while the army is pursuing the Philistines, David is going the other way so that he can put a severed head into safe keeping?

  8. #68

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    Really? How? David was not in the army. He didn't have a tent to put it in. He was there dropping off supplies.

    The account is quite precise. The two armies were on opposite sides of a valley. Goliath and David met between them to fight. When David kills Goliath he cuts off his head, the Philistines see that their champion is dead and flee. When they flee the army of Israel rises up and pursues them. This is the most critical moment in the battle and you are saying that while the army is pursuing the Philistines, David is going the other way so that he can put a severed head into safe keeping?
    Probably yea. Sounds right to me... I'm sure anyone who silently was rooting for David was overwhelmed with joy for his victory. They most likely carried him and the head back to there camp for safe keeping.

    Besides there is no way you could tell how long his hair was from that distance......

  9. #69
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    Really? How?
    You're overly fascinated with things that are not in the text. Good luck.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

  10. #70
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    You're overly fascinated with things that are not in the text. Good luck.
    As bad as isolating a text in the Bible (removing all context), applying a context and running with it as "the" meaning for the isolated verse.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  11. #71

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    This thread is not discussing an item of the faith. I agree 100% with ChangedByHim that we should not make anything an item of the faith that is not in the Black and White word.

    I also agree with Slug1 that you can run too far with an interpretation.

    But this works just as much for all the Christian doctrine of David being a boy (probably 20 years old so should be described as a man), who was despised by his father.

    When looking at every verse on the subject these are thin and extremely poorly supported. Jonathan was already a hero in the army prior to David killing Goliath yet saw David as a leader right away.

    So perhaps this thread needs to take a turn and focus the criticism of taking verses out of context, running with context, and building a doctrine on what is not said explicitly on the standard teaching.

  12. #72

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    https://opentheword.org/2013/08/09/k...g-dark-secret/

    So this link says that David was conceived in adultery or that his mother was a prostitute. They base this on a verse in Psalm 51 that says he was conceived in sin. They then find a verse where David says he has become estranged from his brothers to support this theory.

    I would say this is an example of what Slug1 says "As bad as isolating a text in the Bible (removing all context), applying a context and running with it as "the" meaning for the isolated verse."

    It is not an uncommon theory -- https://professorwhodotcom.wordpress...-son-of-jesse/

    But both Matthew and Luke say that David is the son of Jesse. So the only reasonable way to deal with both of these is that David's mother was different than the mother of the other 7 sons and that he was conceived outside of the marriage covenant.

    So that is precisely what ChangedbyHim was referring to "You're overly fascinated with things that are not in the text."

    By contrast wondering if David portraying himself as a harmless shepherd boy is just an act is definitely in the text. Wondering "whose son is he", that is who trained him. Is also definitely in the text. Wondering how Jonathan, a hero in his own right prior to David killing Goliath, as well as an heir to the throne would follow David has his captain, that also is definitely in the text. Seeing a correlation between David pretending to be mad to the king of Gath and pretending to be a harmless shepherd boy to Goliath, and a bloody monster straight out of a horror film to the Philistines, that also is definitely in the text. Wondering why David is brought into Saul's tent after coming back from the slaughter of the Philistines with the head of Goliath in his hand, again that is pure Bible.

  13. #73

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    "Yes, what is written is that David went into Saul's tent holding Goliath's head. My interpretation is that he did this because that head was very valuable, Saul had offered a very high reward for it (again that is what is written), and that is why I don't think he let go of it. The idea that he would leave it lying about for hours while they fought a battle and hope to find it when he got back, well that is an assumption not based on any verse."

    That is against the commandment of the Lord to give private interpretations.

    As someone here said, David is connected with Christ, that is why David did wrong in life to have the afflictions of David, so we see Him leading us into the sufferings of Christ.

    As God said to Abraham, the Lord is our shield and excedding great reward, really bad to suggest David with thew Lords Spirit in him was seeking reward..

    Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

    2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

    Daniel 5:17 Then Daniel answered and said before the king, Let thy gifts be to thyself, and give thy rewards to another; yet I will read the writing unto the king, and make known to him the interpretation.

    Isaiah 9:7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

    Psalm 132:1 Lord, remember David, and all his afflictions:

    Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

    Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

  14. #74

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by gordon777 View Post
    "Yes, what is written is that David went into Saul's tent holding Goliath's head. My interpretation is that he did this because that head was very valuable, Saul had offered a very high reward for it (again that is what is written), and that is why I don't think he let go of it. The idea that he would leave it lying about for hours while they fought a battle and hope to find it when he got back, well that is an assumption not based on any verse."

    That is against the commandment of the Lord to give private interpretations.

    As someone here said, David is connected with Christ, that is why David did wrong in life to have the afflictions of David, so we see Him leading us into the sufferings of Christ.

    As God said to Abraham, the Lord is our shield and excedding great reward, really bad to suggest David with thew Lords Spirit in him was seeking reward..

    Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

    2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

    Daniel 5:17 Then Daniel answered and said before the king, Let thy gifts be to thyself, and give thy rewards to another; yet I will read the writing unto the king, and make known to him the interpretation.

    Isaiah 9:7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

    Psalm 132:1 Lord, remember David, and all his afflictions:

    Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

    Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    Excellent point, it is outrageous to suggest David was holding the head to get a reward. So, why then do you suggest he was holding a severed head as he entered the king's tent?

  15. #75

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    1Sam 17:55 gives all the commentators a problem. Saul asks "whose son is this?" When in the previous chapter he had hired David to play the harp for him in his palace. He had already contracted for this and paid Jesse for this. Also, prior to the battle he had sat in the tent with him. Everyone realizes that interpreting this verse to mean that Saul didn't recognize him or know who he was has some real serious issues.

    However, suppose what he is asking is "who trained this youth". No doubt prior to David killing Goliath he had no knowledge of David's ability or training as a fighter. Therefore this understanding does not have any issue with the his previously being acquainted with David. Also, it would be be very appropriate to ask the captain of your army, the man responsible for training your soldiers, who trained this youth.

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