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Thread: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

  1. #76

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Excellent point, it is outrageous to suggest David was holding the head to get a reward. So, why then do you suggest he was holding a severed head as he entered the king's tent?

    If a person faith in the Lord, they hear the words of the Lord, how God had given His Spirit into Saul to make him king of the Lord God's armies..Israel. It was the Lords and the king Sauls mission to show Israel and God to the world. That is why the words, we NOTICE say: for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give you into our hands. This tells that the one who defied the armies of the Lord, the armies of Israel, were delivered into their hands, into ALL ISRAELS hands, as the battle was the Lords, and David confirmed this to Saul by revealing the head of the defier of the Lord which Saul with the Spirit of God in him was moved to know only these things..

    1 Samuel 17:45 Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.
    46 This day will the Lord deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.
    47 And all this assembly shall know that the Lord saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give you into our hands.



    "1Sam 17:55 gives all the commentators a problem. Saul asks "whose son is this?" When in the previous chapter he had hired David to play the harp for him in his palace. He had already contracted for this and paid Jesse for this. Also, prior to the battle he had sat in the tent with him. Everyone realizes that interpreting this verse to mean that Saul didn't recognize him or know who he was has some real serious issues."

    Saul is a warrior king, and not interested in music players, and pays no attention but to his armies. Abner in charge of the host of also did not know, as naturally Abner only knew the chief warriors of Israel, that is his role and life..

    1 Samuel 17:55 And when Saul saw David go forth against the Philistine, he said unto Abner, the captain of the host, Abner, whose son is this youth? And Abner said, As thy soul liveth, O king, I cannot tell.

    "However, suppose what he is asking is "who trained this youth". No doubt prior to David killing Goliath he had no knowledge of David's ability or training as a fighter. Therefore this understanding does not have any issue with the his previously being acquainted with David. Also, it would be be very appropriate to ask the captain of your army, the man responsible for training your soldiers, who trained this youth."

    Saul was aquainted with the warriors, same for Abner, their life is defending Israel, their focus has to be only on this, not on any other task/ people they have to keep the camps.David trained as a fighter when we do not believe the Lord battled and not man.

  2. #77
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    Yes, what is written is that David went into Saul's tent holding Goliath's head. My interpretation is that he did this because that head was very valuable, Saul had offered a very high reward for it (again that is what is written), and that is why I don't think he let go of it. The idea that he would leave it lying about for hours while they fought a battle and hope to find it when he got back, well that is an assumption not based on any verse.
    What is the point you are trying to make ? He held on to it for what purpose ?

  3. #78

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    What is the point you are trying to make ? He held on to it for what purpose ?
    In 1Samuel 17 Saul asks Abner "Whose son is this youth?" Every Bible expositor has an issue with this because in chapter 16 Saul has hired David from his father, Jesse, to play the harp for him.

    Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Beth-lehemite, that is skilful in playing, and a mighty man of valor, and a man of war, and [f]prudent in [g]speech, and a comely person; and Jehovah is with him. 19 Wherefore Saul sent messengers unto Jesse, and said, Send me David thy son, who is with the sheep. 20 And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a [h]bottle of wine, and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul. 21 And David came to Saul, and stood before him: and he loved him greatly; and he became his armorbearer. 22 And Saul sent to Jesse, saying, Let David, I pray thee, stand before me; for he hath found favor in my sight.

    So if you understand the question to mean "who is his father?" It doesn't make sense.

    My point is that this should be understood to mean "Who trained this youth?" If you understand it that way it makes perfect sense. David just killed Goliath, a giant that everyone else in the army was afraid to challenge and literally allowed him to insult them for 40 days. The way in which he defeated Goliath was unique, no armor, no sword, no javelin, no shield, etc. He then caused the Philstine army to flee and the ensuing battle is referred to as "the slaughter of the Philistines" so after all of this for the King to turn to the Captain of his army and ask "who trained this youth" is a very reasonable question.

    It is also fascinating to me that we could see the superior training of David expressed in 1Samuel.

  4. #79

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    If you understand that David had superior training then the question comes up -- Why is he holding the head of Goliath when he returns from the Slaughter of the Philistines.

    I can understand him lifting it up after killing Goliath so all could see that Goliath was truly dead. But why is he holding the head hours after that?

    My thought is that he didn't have a sword or shield. He used Goliath's sword and he used his head as a shield. Now if I was a Philistine, running from Israel and I turned to fight David it would be terrifying to see that head, and all the blood on David, and it would be very tough to stand up to the guy who had just killed Goliath.

  5. #80
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    In 1Samuel 17 Saul asks Abner "Whose son is this youth?" Every Bible expositor has an issue with this because in chapter 16 Saul has hired David from his father, Jesse, to play the harp for him.

    Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Beth-lehemite, that is skilful in playing, and a mighty man of valor, and a man of war, and [f]prudent in [g]speech, and a comely person; and Jehovah is with him. 19 Wherefore Saul sent messengers unto Jesse, and said, Send me David thy son, who is with the sheep. 20 And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a [h]bottle of wine, and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul. 21 And David came to Saul, and stood before him: and he loved him greatly; and he became his armorbearer. 22 And Saul sent to Jesse, saying, Let David, I pray thee, stand before me; for he hath found favor in my sight.

    So if you understand the question to mean "who is his father?" It doesn't make sense.

    My point is that this should be understood to mean "Who trained this youth?" If you understand it that way it makes perfect sense. David just killed Goliath, a giant that everyone else in the army was afraid to challenge and literally allowed him to insult them for 40 days. The way in which he defeated Goliath was unique, no armor, no sword, no javelin, no shield, etc. He then caused the Philstine army to flee and the ensuing battle is referred to as "the slaughter of the Philistines" so after all of this for the King to turn to the Captain of his army and ask "who trained this youth" is a very reasonable question.

    It is also fascinating to me that we could see the superior training of David expressed in 1Samuel.
    I am failing to see how this is related to how he carried Goliath's head.

  6. #81

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I am failing to see how this is related to how he carried Goliath's head.
    Step 1 -- Who trained this youth.

    that leads to looking at how he defeated Goliath using a sling and presenting himself as a harmless shepherd boy. In chapter 16 he is described as "a mighty man of valor". One poster thought that this didn't happen until he was anointed by Samuel, yet you can see he had the reputation of being a nationally renowned harp player and a mighty man of valor prior to that.

    Step 2 -- Once you see that, then you can see that the strategy with Goliath was very similar to what is written in Sun Tzu about not underestimating your opponent.

    Step 3 -- how did he wrought a victory against the Philistines? No doubt the fact that they fled was quite helpful. Did David holding up a severed head, did that induce them to flee? I think for most of us it is very weird to hold a severed head, I don't know if I could do it. But with David it says he is holding the head in one hand as he returns from the slaughter of the Philistines. Did he hold it in his hand for the entire time since cutting it off? Did he use the head as a shield? Was this his strategy to terrify the Philistines and induce them into fleeing?

  7. #82
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    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    Step 1 -- Who trained this youth.

    that leads to looking at how he defeated Goliath using a sling and presenting himself as a harmless shepherd boy. In chapter 16 he is described as "a mighty man of valor". One poster thought that this didn't happen until he was anointed by Samuel, yet you can see he had the reputation of being a nationally renowned harp player and a mighty man of valor prior to that.

    Step 2 -- Once you see that, then you can see that the strategy with Goliath was very similar to what is written in Sun Tzu about not underestimating your opponent.

    Step 3 -- how did he wrought a victory against the Philistines? No doubt the fact that they fled was quite helpful. Did David holding up a severed head, did that induce them to flee? I think for most of us it is very weird to hold a severed head, I don't know if I could do it. But with David it says he is holding the head in one hand as he returns from the slaughter of the Philistines. Did he hold it in his hand for the entire time since cutting it off? Did he use the head as a shield? Was this his strategy to terrify the Philistines and induce them into fleeing?
    How he held Goliath's head didn't cause the Philistines to flee nearly as much as the fact that he was able to cut off his head. A boy slayed their champion and the fact that God Himself was the cause of such a victory was so evident that the enemy tucked tail and ran. Nothing more.

  8. #83

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    How he held Goliath's head didn't cause the Philistines to flee nearly as much as the fact that he was able to cut off his head. A boy slayed their champion and the fact that God Himself was the cause of such a victory was so evident that the enemy tucked tail and ran. Nothing more.
    Yes. However, if he held the head for a battle involving swords for several hours that is quite different from simply holding up the head to show it had been severed. If he held the hand by the neck it would be possible to do that, but it would suggest forethought, planning and a strategy. That is the point of this question -- was the use of a severed head part of David's strategy to defeat the Philistines?

  9. #84

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    For no purpose, as God said man at his best is altogether vanity, and to avoid foolish questions.

    David did his job to make the philistines flee.

    David did not have to join in with all the soldiers, he had no armour, and God was with him to slay the giant, and that was fulfilled.

    So the questions are for no good purpose, you can say David used the head and fought on all you like, but the other way is, the Israelites fought on, it is not recorded that David did also..

    Psalm 39:5 Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether VANITY. Selah.

    2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

    Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and VAIN.

    Israels case:

    1 Samuel 17:52 And the men of Israel and of Judah arose, and shouted, and pursued the Philistines, until thou come to the valley, and to the gates of Ekron. And the wounded of the Philistines fell down by the way to Shaaraim, even unto Gath, and unto Ekron.
    53 And the children of ISRAEL RETURNED FROM CHASING THE PHILISTINES, and they spoiled their tents.

    Davids:

    1 Samuel 17:57 And as DAVID RETURNED FROM THE SLAUGHTER OF THE PHILISTINE, ( NOT PHILISTINES AS ABOVE CASE FOR ISRAEL ONLY) Abner took him, and brought him before Saul with the head of the Philistine in his hand.

  10. #85

    Re: How did David hold Goliath's head in his hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by gordon777 View Post
    For no purpose, as God said man at his best is altogether vanity, and to avoid foolish questions.

    David did his job to make the philistines flee.

    David did not have to join in with all the soldiers, he had no armour, and God was with him to slay the giant, and that was fulfilled.

    So the questions are for no good purpose, you can say David used the head and fought on all you like, but the other way is, the Israelites fought on, it is not recorded that David did also..

    Psalm 39:5 Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether VANITY. Selah.

    2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

    Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and VAIN.
    Must be difficult for you to study the Bible. Every single expositor that I have read has questions about this passage.

    Quote Originally Posted by gordon777 View Post
    Israels case:

    1 Samuel 17:52 And the men of Israel and of Judah arose, and shouted, and pursued the Philistines, until thou come to the valley, and to the gates of Ekron. And the wounded of the Philistines fell down by the way to Shaaraim, even unto Gath, and unto Ekron.
    53 And the children of ISRAEL RETURNED FROM CHASING THE PHILISTINES, and they spoiled their tents.

    Davids:

    1 Samuel 17:57 And as DAVID RETURNED FROM THE SLAUGHTER OF THE PHILISTINE, ( NOT PHILISTINES AS ABOVE CASE FOR ISRAEL ONLY) Abner took him, and brought him before Saul with the head of the Philistine in his hand.
    51 And David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of its sheath, and killed him completely, and cut off his head with it. And when the Philistines saw that their hero was dead, they fled.
    52 And the men of Israel and of Judah arose, and shouted, and pursued the Philistines, until thou comest to the ravine and to the gates of Ekron. And the wounded of the Philistines fell down on the way to Shaaraim, even to Gath, and to Ekron.
    53 And the children of Israel returned from chasing after the Philistines, and they pillaged their camps.
    54 And David took the head of the Philistine and brought it to Jerusalem; but he put his armour in his tent.
    55 And when Saul saw David go forth against the Philistine, he said to Abner, the captain of the host, Abner, whose son is this young man? And Abner said, As thy soul liveth, O king, I cannot tell.
    56 And the king said, Inquire thou whose son this youth is.
    57 And as David returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, Abner took him, and brought him before Saul with the head of the Philistine in his hand.
    58 And Saul said to him, Whose son art thou, young man? And David said, I am the son of thy servant Jesse the Beth-lehemite.


    Yes, if we look at one verse, out of context, it seems to be a very simple matter. But v52 comes before 57, are we to believe the King and Abner just sat by while the entire army is chasing the Philistines? Even if you believe David did? That doesn't raise any questions for you?

    Yes it is not clear, there is a lot in this passage that is not clear. Your approach to Bible study is very clear, if you don't understand something ignore it, not important, can't ask any questions. If that is the policy of this forum then one wonders what is going on since virtually every thread appears to begin with a question that someone asked either of themselves or of the group.

    However, I think that if the question "whose son is this" actually refers to who trained David that this could be a major theme in 1Samuel.

    I also think this can be directly tied to "take up your cross and follow me" and Paul's word that "I am crucified with Christ, and no longer live, *I*, but Christ lives in me; but [in] that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the [faith] of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me."

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