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Thread: Taking a closer look

  1. #16

    Re: Taking a closer look

    Quote Originally Posted by maverick View Post
    If I may "chime" in on this topic. You said this: " I think in the end the only widely acceptable explanation is that God, the LORD and the LORD God are perhaps one entity." Or to put it another way there is only one "being" of God. However, the Bible makes it clear that there are three and only three persons identifed in the Bible who make up the one God.

    For instance, you quoted Genesis 17:7 but look at what Genesis 17:1,2 state, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before Me, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." In these two verses you have the word "Lord" and the word "God" being used for the same being.

    Here is what Genesis 16:7 states, "Now the angel of the LOrd found her/Hagar by a sspring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur." Jumping down to vs10, "Moreover, the angel of the Lord said to her, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shal be too many to count."

    Now look at what Hagar says at vs13, "Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou art a God who sees: for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him." So here's the question? Is the angel of the Lord who multiplied Hagar's seed the same "being" that multiplied Abram's seed?

    Some people say, (and rightfully so) "There are so many scriptures that only use Lord, God and many other titles referring to God so how do you deal with this? Where no distinction is made, it is obviously unnecessay to make a distinction. The person of the Trinity are persons in relation to each other, any one of the persons in relation to us is simply God. In that there is only One God. If God says to us His glory He will not give to another, that is because there is only One God.

    Also keep in mind that the Holy Spirit is a person in relation to the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit is God in relation to us. If you are in a relationship with the Father/Holy Spirit, then yu must be in a relationship with ther all, for there is only One God and if you deny one, you deny them all.

    There is another very important issue that needs to be addressed. A lot of people when they see the word "God" in the Old Testament they automatically assume it must be God the Father. This is especially true of the various cults out there. The Old Testament people called God the Father (not every single time) because He was their creator. Isaiah 63:16 comes to mind. And as you know the phrase, "God the Father" is used extensively after the birth of Christ. Hope this helps.

    IN HIM,
    maverick
    Thanks for that.
    I agree my idea is to cut out the distinction, at first it was.

    Indeed when the Lord had visited Abraham in that passage in Genesis you mentions.....
    Which did eat also with him ? In chapter 18.
    Notice here in chapter 18 in the very very first verse.

    How the Lord had stood in the tent in the heat of the day...

    Same as the Lord which walked in the garden of Eden in the cool of the day...


    I think there may be things at play here and that they very well do reveal themselves.

    The Spirit of God was said to have created everything.

    Yet how is such a great event as God entering Abraham's tent and having dinner along with three angels ?

  2. #17
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    Re: Taking a closer look

    Ok ziggie I have to correct your understanding on the following statement of yours, "Yet how is such a great event as God entering Abraham's tent and having dinner along with three angels?" Remember, I ask you this question? "So here's the question? Is the angel of the Lord who multiplied Hagar's seed the same "being" that multiplied Abram's seed? "

    The answer is yes, the angel of the Lord is the same being as in Genesis 17 because the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ before His incarnation. Keep in mind that at Genesis 17 it says the Lord God appeared to Abram and it cannot be God the Father because He can't be seen with the physical eyes. Jesus Christ is the only visible manifestation of God, John 1:18. And how do I know this is a physical manifestation of God is from Genesis 17:22, "And when He/
    god finished talking with him/Abraham, God went up from Abraham.

    Now, look at Genesis 18:1, "Now the Lord appeared to him/Abrahm by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." Abraham offered the them food and water at vs5. What we have here are the angel of the Lord (who is God) and two angels manifested as men. Read the whole chapter and you will see the angel of the Lord is having a conversation with Abraham about Sodom and Gomorrah. Look at the very last verse (vs33). "And as soon as He/God finished speaking to Abraham the LORD departed; and Abraham returned to his place.

    So what happened to the two angels? Genesis 19:1, "Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his fact to the ground. The long and short of it was the angels told Lot and his family to get out of Dodge. So again, the angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ and the angel of the Lord appears at other places in the Old Testament. Please read Exodus 3 especially vs2 and notice what he says in the following verses. Now do you get it?

    IN HIM,
    maverick

  3. #18

    Re: Taking a closer look

    It was Abraham sitting in his tent sorry and there was apparently the Lord and two men appeared before him...

  4. #19

    Re: Taking a closer look

    Quote Originally Posted by maverick View Post
    Ok ziggie I have to correct your understanding on the following statement of yours, "Yet how is such a great event as God entering Abraham's tent and having dinner along with three angels?" Remember, I ask you this question? "So here's the question? Is the angel of the Lord who multiplied Hagar's seed the same "being" that multiplied Abram's seed? "

    The answer is yes, the angel of the Lord is the same being as in Genesis 17 because the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ before His incarnation. Keep in mind that at Genesis 17 it says the Lord God appeared to Abram and it cannot be God the Father because He can't be seen with the physical eyes. Jesus Christ is the only visible manifestation of God, John 1:18. And how do I know this is a physical manifestation of God is from Genesis 17:22, "And when He/
    god finished talking with him/Abraham, God went up from Abraham.

    Now, look at Genesis 18:1, "Now the Lord appeared to him/Abrahm by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." Abraham offered the them food and water at vs5. What we have here are the angel of the Lord (who is God) and two angels manifested as men. Read the whole chapter and you will see the angel of the Lord is having a conversation with Abraham about Sodom and Gomorrah. Look at the very last verse (vs33). "And as soon as He/God finished speaking to Abraham the LORD departed; and Abraham returned to his place.

    So what happened to the two angels? Genesis 19:1, "Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his fact to the ground. The long and short of it was the angels told Lot and his family to get out of Dodge. So again, the angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ and the angel of the Lord appears at other places in the Old Testament. Please read Exodus 3 especially vs2 and notice what he says in the following verses. Now do you get it?

    IN HIM,
    maverick
    Thanks for the response.

  5. #20
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    Re: Taking a closer look

    Just to be clear ziggie, does it make sense to you that the angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ?

    IN HIM,
    maverick

  6. #21

    Re: Taking a closer look

    That is a considerable outcome maverick.

    Just to be clear can you answer the question I put forward here ? If you don't it's ok I'm just curious.

    Genesis 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.

    Now let's say I want to reword this passage but retain the integrity of the core parts. Would it seam okay to you to do so like this...

    And they went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and God shut him in.

    OR do you think that there may be some elusive core part there that may be lost if the Lord was replaced in this instance with God ?

  7. #22
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    Re: Taking a closer look

    It seems to me that your saying the same thing as the verse itself says. What is your point in changing what it originally says? Are you trying to paraphase the verse? How about trying this out on another verse. The shortest verse in the Bible is "Jesus wept." You could change it to "Jesus cried" I suppose, but why?

    IN HIM,
    maverick

  8. #23

    Re: Taking a closer look

    I am interpreting the bible with little trouble only now that I am getting every bit and pieces written down I am trying to simplify but having trouble using God instead of the Lord.
    You may not understand this but it makes sense to me.
    Anyways I have caught wind of Revelation Chapter 19 in someone else's post and it just blew this wide open for me.

    I'm going to just keep the Lord, the Lord God, the Lord of Hosts and any other names just as they are for now. I don't think I can use God for all of them in every instance with confidence at this point.

  9. #24

    Re: Taking a closer look

    Very interesting study bro thanks for sharing .

    one thought there sort of off mark ...the sons of God in genesis Are those who first begin calling on the name of the lord...if I'm recalling correctly . people often overlook that the things in Genesis all took place before the giving of the mosaic law, then the things under the mosaic law , all took place before the gospel was declared openly.

    sort of three time periods in scripture before the exodus and giving of the law , the time of the law and prophets , and then the time from the gospel to the end , and new beginning... The law is not the beginning but the mid point , coming to fallen man .....but in the beginning you have man made in his image , and in the end also made in his image ....Adam is called a son of God , and then the line of Seth who call on the name of the lord .

    the children of men in the beginning would be the children of Cain , who was exiled from the people of God when he killed Abel...he then moved on and created a city and had many children and family...and Adam and Eve then , were given Seth in place of Abel and there is the line of Seth , the sons of God , under the law later they are the servants like Ishmael , it the heirs , the heirs are before and after the law...the sons are the heirs .

    the sin in those days was the people of God , marrying the children of Cain having his influence in thier bloodline created an evil people....it reflects in the law often about marrying foriegn women and serving other gods....which Cain was the first man born to serve another god when he murdered the second man born. Note before the law Abel the second born , Isaac the second born , Jacob the second born , but then in the law , it's concerning the firstborn and circumcision .....the firstborn were always rejected after Cain ....until the law chooses the firstborn, a shadow in scripture of two covenants....the second representing the heir...the first the servant.

  10. #25

    Re: Taking a closer look

    And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos:
    then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.”
    **Genesis‬ *4:26‬ *KJV‬‬


    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God....

    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

    **John‬ *1:1-2, 12‬ *KJV‬‬


    “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?”
    **John‬ *10:34-36‬ *KJV‬‬

    They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

    I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
    **Psalms‬ *82:5-8‬ *KJV‬‬

    Before the law is given at Sinai

    “And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

    And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.”
    **Exodus‬ *3:13-15‬ *KJV‬‬


    Thus saith the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; ....; I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

    I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

    Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it.

    Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

    I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts.

    Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.


    For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

    Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

    Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.”
    **Isaiah‬ *45:1-3, 5-6, 8, 11-13, 15, 18-19, 21-23‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: ...

    ...And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
    **Philippians‬ *2:5-11‬ *KJV‬‬

    “But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
    **Romans‬ *14:10-12‬ *KJV‬‬

  11. #26

    Re: Taking a closer look

    “I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Even every one that is called by my name:

    for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him. Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.

    Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.”
    **Isaiah‬ *43:6-11‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.”
    **John‬ *17:3, 17-18, 20-21, 23-25‬ *KJV‬‬

  12. #27

    Re: Taking a closer look

    I agree with Jacob's ladder. Although study by oneself is important, in the multitude of counselors there is wisdom. Look for commentaries from other reputable Bible teachers such as Chuck Missler and Chuck Smith. The both carry out an exhaustive study of the Bible book by book. Although I don't agree with every single thing they say, they offer a multitude of different conjectures for you to consider. God bless you!

  13. #28
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    Re: Taking a closer look

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggie View Post
    Genesis 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.

    Now let's say I want to reword this passage but retain the integrity of the core parts. Would it seam okay to you to do so like this...

    And they went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and God shut him in.

    OR do you think that there may be some elusive core part there that may be lost if the Lord was replaced in this instance with God ?
    I'm assuming we aren't discussing some kind of Ancient Astronaut Theory stuff...

    I don't think the verse should be paraphrased substituting "God" for "the LORD". As you have already admitted, just a little later in the Old Testament, we get the whole enchilada anyway:

    Genesis 27:20 And Isaac said unto his son, How is it that thou hast found it so quickly, my son? And he said, Because the LORD thy God brought it to me.


    Now, for "elusive core parts" etc., consider the following verse:

    1 Samuel 17:55 And when Saul saw David go forth against the Philistine, he said unto Abner, the captain of the host, Abner, whose son is this youth? And Abner said, As thy soul liveth, O king, I cannot tell.

    We see Saul referred to as "Saul" and "king" in the above. They are both important to the understanding of the verse. Let me get another one...

    1 Samuel 19:4 And Jonathan spake good of David unto Saul his father, and said unto him, Let not the king sin against his servant, against David; because he hath not sinned against thee, and because his works have been to thee-ward very good:

    Anyway, I think "the LORD thy God" pretty much answers the "elusive core part" thing.
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

  14. #29
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    Re: Taking a closer look

    Quote Originally Posted by watchinginawe View Post
    I don't think the verse should be paraphrased substituting "God" for "the LORD". As you have already admitted, just a little later in the Old Testament, we get the whole enchilada anyway:

    Genesis 27:20 And Isaac said unto his son, How is it that thou hast found it so quickly, my son? And he said, Because the LORD thy God brought it to me.
    Actually, on further consideration, and as you rightly pointed out, we have the whole of the puzzle in Genesis 2:4-5 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

    Now going back to the Hebrew, we can see the terms are the same as that in Genesis 7:16. Here is a link to both verses for you to look at. Click on the word "God" in each and "LORD" in each.

    Genesis 2:4-5 - From Studylight.org Genesis 2:4

    Genesis 7:16 - From Studylight.or Genesis 7:16

    Functionally, they operate similarly to something like "King David", where one is Title, and one is Name. They aren't synonymous, right?

    Here is a good one referring to King David and the LORD God:

    1 Chronicles 29:20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king.

    Look at this verse using Studylight.org and clicking on the uses of "God" (noun) and "LORD" (proper name)
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

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