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Thread: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

  1. #31
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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    TO make Daniel 11 about the Seleucid king Antiochus, is to make Daniel 11 of a total irrelevance.
    I agree. I actually don't think Danial 11 is about four Greek kings, I stated such as in a historic view point it would make more sense.

    As mentioned the four kings arise up out of Grecia not Persia. However these four become a NEW kingdom in of itself. These four become the four kingdom upon the earth.

    8 Therefore the he goat (3rd kingdom/Grecia) waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones (4th kingdom) toward the four winds of heaven.

    The four notable ones are now the fourth kingdom. They are the Lion, Bear, Leopard, Beast of chapter 7 and represent the first four seals and are seen rising as part of the beast in Rev 13.

    These four are still yet to rise. Thus chapter 11 speaks of a future time when these kings rule the earth each having 1/4 of the land north south east west divided into two kingdoms north and south. These four represent the fourth kingdom upon the earth a demonic empowered kingdom not a known country thus the reason called by animal names.

    Thus we are still currently in the kingdom of Grecia.

  2. #32
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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not going to argue a mistaken chapter reference!

    I told you that the Scriptures are not clear about the rule of Darius the Mede. We must try to make sense of known history, even though we lack historical info. There are a number of logical choices, to fill in the blanks. It isn't certain. Some things are clear. I tend to not "write books" on the most ambiguous parts of Scriptures. You're demanding that I take your choices over the choices of other eminent scholars. Unless you have information deeper than they had, that's not likely to happen. I don't have enough to go on myself.

    Yes, the account of angels governing the affairs of men, and controlling events surrounding important rulers, did make me conclude that the use of Cyrus and Darius the Mede to restore Israel involved angels. These angels were also used to put down certain rulers and kingdoms on behalf of Israel. Sometimes God favored certain rulers. At other times He opposed them.

    The verse in question is concerned with angelic opposition to certain rulers, yes. But we also know that God favored those same rulers at certain points in time. Angels were used to accomplish these things. That seems certain.
    Making sense of history based on what we know is what I am doing. If you chose to make reference to commentators who did NOT have the same amount of historical information as we do, and who therefore tried to find a solution, and then to take their solution as correct EVEN though we have information which contradicts their claim, then it means you are NOT actually making sense of history (and scripture) by what we NOW know, but only what was known decades and more ago.

    What IS certain is that Cyrus and Darius ruled at the same time, as seen in Daniel 10 and 11. Further we know that Darius was given the Babylonian kingdom, and was himself a Mede and NOT a Persian.
    So yes I AM demanding you make a choice over that of PAST scholars because we have MORE information now which they did NOT have. So yes you could term that as "deeper" information if you like.
    Furthermore they are trying to fit something based upon a certain reading of scripture which then superimposes Darius as ruling the Persian kingdom, which scripture itself does NOT do. Eminent scholars are also able to make mistakes, if we take consideration of their base assumptions and the information they had.
    We have no scripture which has these angels putting down any rules, only that hey fought against certain "princes" which most interpret to mean other spiritiual beings i.e principalities thta Paul mentions in Ephesians.

  3. #33
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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    The setting for Dan 11 - future

    Dan 11
    1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.
    2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

    Yes there are 4 past kings in Persia, the fourth which goes against Greece.

    3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
    4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

    The mighty king which stands up in NOT Persian but Greek for when this king is broken it will be divided into four parts. Scripture says that it is the king of Greece which is broken. Persia never broke Greece other way around.

    Dan 8
    20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
    21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
    22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

    So then Chapter 11 after the first few verses speaks of a time when the Greek kingdom is divided into four parts. Many have tried to align this with past kings such as Antiochus ect... However they have not been able to identify the kings of the north nor the south. Note there is not a mention in the chapter of the direction west. Only north, south, east. Why? Well the land must butt up against water on the west side hence the ships of Chittam.

    So if we look at a map we see Israel fits the description with water flanked on the west. Also it would be Israel wherein this little horn claiming to be king of the Jews would naturally arise. So chapter 11 is a time when after the kingdom of Grecia is broken into four parts and wherein after that a little horn arises and plants his tabernacle between the seas and holy mountain signifying Israel.

    So paint the picture we have a false lamb, little horn, king of the Jews arise in the land of Judah (second beast 2 horns) thus he would be king over a kingdom which would have the tribes of Israel in the land in the kingdom (first beast 10 horns). So then if we have a king over the kingdom of Israel we would have 12 tribes and the king of the northern tribes and a king of the southern tribes. This is the king of the north and south in Chapter 11. The little horn would be likened to Christ head over all.

    So chapter 11 is NOT about king of Persia nor a time of the kings of Greece but a future time when a kingdom will arise likened as the kingdom of God will all the trimmings, 12 tribes and a glorious city decked in jewels with a king claiming to be God. Hence we are still living in the time of Grecia.

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Making sense of history based on what we know is what I am doing. If you chose to make reference to commentators who did NOT have the same amount of historical information as we do, and who therefore tried to find a solution, and then to take their solution as correct EVEN though we have information which contradicts their claim, then it means you are NOT actually making sense of history (and scripture) by what we NOW know, but only what was known decades and more ago.

    What IS certain is that Cyrus and Darius ruled at the same time, as seen in Daniel 10 and 11. Further we know that Darius was given the Babylonian kingdom, and was himself a Mede and NOT a Persian.
    So yes I AM demanding you make a choice over that of PAST scholars because we have MORE information now which they did NOT have. So yes you could term that as "deeper" information if you like.
    Furthermore they are trying to fit something based upon a certain reading of scripture which then superimposes Darius as ruling the Persian kingdom, which scripture itself does NOT do. Eminent scholars are also able to make mistakes, if we take consideration of their base assumptions and the information they had.
    We have no scripture which has these angels putting down any rules, only that hey fought against certain "princes" which most interpret to mean other spiritiual beings i.e principalities thta Paul mentions in Ephesians.
    Point well taken--we do have more info today than many years ago. However, I think their arguments, in this case, are still reasonable. In any case, I don't have reason to upset what for me works. If you have major new info to share, I'm open...

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    The question is asked: "Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?"

    The short answer is:

    [00] Darius the Mede

    [0] Cyrus II The Great (then ruling)

    "yet"

    [1] Cambyses II (Cyrus II son, aka "Ahasuerus")
    [2] False Smerdis (Bardiya, Gaumata the usurper, aka "[false] Artaxerxes")
    [3] Darius I Hystaspes, the Persian
    [4] Xerxes I the Great (aka "Ahasuerus" of Esther, 127 Provinces)

    This is fleshed out here:

    [00] Darius The Mede[ian]
    [son of 'Ahasuerus'; Daniel 9:1, not the 'Ahasuerus' [aka Cambyses II] of Ezra 4:6, nor the 'Ahasuerus' [aka Xerxes I The Great] of Esther 1:1-2,9,10,15,16,17,19, 2:1,12,16,21, 3:1,7,8,12, 6:2, 7:5, 8:1,7,10,12, 9:2,20,30, 10:1,3] - 539 BC; see Daniel 5:31, 6:1,6,9,25,28, 9:1, 11:1


    [0] Cyrus II, The Great, King of the Medes [and later Persians] [King of the East]
    [son of Cambyses I; nephew of Darius The Mede] - 600 BC [kinged backwards through tradition] or 576 BC–530; see 2 Chronicles 36:22,23; Ezra 1:1,2,7,8, 3:7, 4:3,5, 5:13,14,17, 6:3,14; Isaiah 44:28, 45:1; Daniel 1:21, 6:28, 10:1 and Daniel 11:2 [the currently reigning King of Babylon, after which were to follow 3 kings [Cambyses II, False Smerdis, Darius I of Hystaspes The Persian] and then a 4th Richer king [Xerxes I The Great, aka "Ahasuerus" of Esther]]
    . He Reigned ca. 559 BC – 530 BC [co-ruling Media/Persia until ca. 549 BC, then overruling the Medes, then later Babylonia]

    According to Daniel 10:1, Cyrus II the Great was ruling.

    According to Daniel 11:1-2, "yet" "three Kings" were to come after him.

    Daniel 11:1 - Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, [even] I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.

    Daniel 11:1 – Gabriel continues speaking to Daniel from Chapter 10, in that He was sent to strengthen Darius the Mede.

    Chapters 10-12 are basically a single chapter, beginning and ending with Christ Jesus, the Alpha and Omega of History, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the Ending, the Author and Finisher....

    Daniel 11:2 - And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than [they] all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

    Daniel 11:2 – Gabriel lets Daniel know where he will be shown the Truth from of the vision of Daniel 8, it is from the Scripture of Truth, even as the Torah [Genesis to Deuteronomy, etc], unto 1 & 2 Kings and 1 & 2 Chronicles, and Isaiah and Jeremiah, etc [and also Ezekiel, contemporary of Daniel] have the history of Daniel 11 in Type.

    Those "yet" "three Kings" of (Medo)Persia, according to Scripture, were:

    Cambyses II
    [Cyrus II son] the “Ahasuerus” of Ezra 4:6 [not the Ahasuerus, the 'father' of Darius the Mede of Daniel 9:1, and neither the Ahasuerus of Esther [Xerxes I, The Great], “...which reigned, from India even unto Ethiopia, [over] an hundred and seven and twenty provinces...”]; see also Daniel 11:2 [the 1st of the 4 kings that had “yet” to Reign in Persia after Cyrus II The Great] and see also See also Ezra 4:5 “...all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia.” for context and period of between...
    and he was the one who conquered Egypt, the Third Rib (Daniel 7:5), Third Direction, "Southward" (Daniel 8:4).

    He Reigned 530 BC – 522 [Babylon]

    He Reigned 525 BC – 522 [Egypt]


    False Smerdis
    [aka Pseudo Bardiya [or Gaumata the Usurper/sorceror] aka [false] “Artaxerxes” of Ezra 4:7-23 [4:7,8,23]] - 522 BC, about 6 months to 1 year or so, before being killed, found as an impostor - [Haggai [the LORD's Messenger] and Zechariah [the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the Prophet] the Prophets begin during the reign of this Usurper; Ezra 5:1, 6:14]]; see also Daniel 11:2 [the 2nd of the 4 kings that had “yet” to Reign in Persia after Cyrus II The Great] and Ezra 4:7; “Artaxerxes” [reigned in between Cyrus II The Great and Darius I Hystaspes The Persian The Great, see Ezra 4:5 “...all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia.” for the two 'bookend' kings] and see Ezra 4:7-24 [[false] Artaxerxes decree to cease building, which went against the Law of the Medes/Persians which changes not] and see Ezra 6:8-12 [Darius I Hystaspes The Persian The Great, after eliminating False Smerdis, has to re-issue the Decree of Cyrus II]


    Darius I The Persian, [of] Hystaspes, The Great
    - 522 BC – 486 BC [Ezra 4:5,24, 5:5; Haggai 1:1; Zechariah 1:1; wife was Atossa [daughter of Cyrus II, The Great] [not to be confused with Darius The Mede of Daniel]] [Haggai [the LORD's Messenger] and Zechariah [the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the Prophet] the Prophets continue during the reign of this King; Haggai 1:1 [even unto the 2nd year; Haggai 1:15]; Zechariah 1:1 [even unto the 4th year; Zechariah 7:1]; etc]; see also Daniel 11:2 [the 3rd of the 4 kings that had “yet” to Reign in Persia after Cyrus II The Great]


    Xerxes I, The Great
    - 486 BC - 465 BC [aka; Persian: Ḫšayāršā; Hebrew: 'Achashverowsh; Bible: “Ahasuerus” [“I will be silent and poor”, or “lion-king” [Gesenius's Lexicon]] [son of Darius I Hystaspes The Persian The Great; aka "Ahasuerus" [Husband] of Esther [Hadassah] of 127 Provinces; Esther 1:1] of Esther 1:1-2,9,10,15,16,17,19, 2:1,12,16,21, 3:1,7,8,12, 6:2, 7:5, 8:1,7,10,12, 9:2,20,30, 10:1,3 [not to be confused with the father of Darius the Mede in Daniel 9:1], but rather, “Now it came to pass in the days of Ahasuerus, (this [is] Ahasuerus which reigned, from India even unto Ethiopia, [over] an hundred and seven and twenty provinces” Esther 1:1; Queen was Vashti, and then Queen was [Hadassah] Esther [whose uncle was Mordecai the Jew]; Xerxes was the son of Darius The Persian and Atossa] [Esther, the Book of happens during the reign of this King]; see also Daniel 11:2 [the 4th of the 4 kings that had “yet” to Reign in Persia after Cyrus II The Great]; [“...the fourth shall be far richer than [they] all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.”]. He obtained his massive wealth by inheriting from the wealth of Cyrus [II] in the conquering of Babylon & Lydia [King Croesus] [Isaiah 45:3; Daniel 7:5, 8:4], from inheriting from the wealth of Ahasuerus / Cambyses [II] in the conquering of Egypt [Daniel 7:5, 8:4], from the wealth obtained falsely by [False] Artaxerxes / False Smerdis [Ezra 4:13,14,16,22], and through the wealth of Darius [I] Hystaspes [Ezra 6:1], even having a feast for 180 days and 7 more! [Esther 1:3-5], and laid a tribute upon the “Isles” [Greeks, Javan] [Esther 10:1].

  6. #36
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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    The history I have just described, has not merely taken place once, but history has repeated itself, and it may be demonstrated from Daniel 11, and the rest of scripture, that it has done so, at least 3 times. One time before the life of Daniel, one time during, and one time after.

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyGospelShoes View Post
    The history I have just described, has not merely taken place once, but history has repeated itself, and it may be demonstrated from Daniel 11, and the rest of scripture, that it has done so, at least 3 times. One time before the life of Daniel, one time during, and one time after.
    Looks like you've done some real serious study of these kings in Daniel, and I certainly agree with much of it. But I don't know what you mean here? 3 x? I don't have a clue what you mean by this? Yes, history "repeats itself," there are "historical cycles," and there are parallels in history. But what do you mean here? It can be confusing when some interpret prophecy as if it "telescopes," which in my view just confuses literal interpretations.

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    randyk said: "Looks like you've done some real serious study of these kings in Daniel, and I certainly agree with much of it. But I don't know what you mean here? 3 x? I don't have a clue what you mean by this? Yes, history "repeats itself," there are "historical cycles," and there are parallels in history. But what do you mean here? It can be confusing when some interpret prophecy as if it "telescopes," which in my view just confuses literal interpretations."

    My reply:

    History is repeating. Demonstrated from the Bible.

    Ecclesiastes 1:9 - The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun.

    Ecclesiastes 3:15 - That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

    Looking again at these two texts:

    Ecclesiastes 1:9:

    The thing that hath been, (Past)

    it [is that] which shall be; (Future, again)

    and that which is done (Present)

    [is] that which shall be done: (Future, again)

    and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun. (Cycle)

    Ecclesiastes 3:15

    That which hath been (Past)

    is now; (Present, again)

    and that which is to be (Future, again)

    hath already been; (Past)

    and God requireth (Present, Future, again, Cycle)

    that which is past (Past, Cycle).

    Now we can look at the History in the Scripture itself, and see.

    Let us begin with a simple broad example, and move unto more specific examples:

    Matthew 24:37 - But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Matthew 24:38 - For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

    Matthew 24:39 - And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Luke 17:26 - And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

    Luke 17:27 - They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    Luke 17:28 - Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

    Luke 17:29 - But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.

    Luke 17:30 - Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    Please turn in your Bibles prayerfully to Daniel 10-12, for therein, I would like to share with you more about this matter of the repetition of History as the Scripture itself gives it:

    In Daniel 10:1, we see that Cyrus II the Great of (Medo)Persia was already in the third year of his reign, being two years since the First (of Three) Decree(s) (Ezra 6:14) went forward in 536 BC (2 Chronicles 36:22-3; Ezra 1:1-4, 6:3; Isaiah 44:26-28; Daniel 1:21), in which Daniel (greatly beloved) was still alive (at about 90 years of age, the age of John the beloved Apostle on the Isle of Patmos):

    Daniel 10:1 - In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing [was] true, but the time appointed [was] long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

    Yet we see that, in Daniel 10, that the messenger Gabriel (*) comes to speak with Daniel about events that were Future to Daniel's present time (Daniel 11:1), which would run through the course of history (Daniel 11:1-45; 12:1-3; all linked with Daniel 1-10), unto and through the first coming of Christ Jesus, and continuing all the way through history unto the end and second coming of Christ Jesus (Daniel 12:1-3).

    However, let us take notice where Gabriel (*) is getting the information about the Future from! It was from that which was already written in the Scripture of Truth, in otherwords, the very word of God, from Genesis unto the time of the Prophet Daniel in the 3rd Year of the reign of Cyrus II the Great of (Medo)Persia! Look:

    Daniel 10:21 - But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

    Notice. The Future from the time of Daniel, was already in the History written before, and in the prophets before Daniel!

    The very Future History which would come after Daniel in Daniel 11-12, is already given in the previous Scriptures up to that time! Even as Ecclesiastes 1:9, 3:15 reveal, God requires that which is past to be yet again.

    After the 3 Persian Kings and also 4th, and even long after them, would come the Kingdom of Greecia, as even the 4th King would stir them up.

    The Macedonian/Greek Empire came under Alexander the Great:

    Daniel 11:3 - And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.

    But it would eventually be sub-divided into four [not merely individual persons, but] Dynasties [for instance see the Golden head of Babylon, is all of the rulers of Babylon from Nebuchadnezzar unto Belshazzar] (Seleucus, Ptolemy, Cassander, Lysimachus dynasties) major sections (Daniel 7:7, 8:8,21-22), before becoming 2 major sections, of a Northern (Coele-Syria/Babylon under Seleucus/Antiochus dynasty) and Southern (Egypt under Ptolemy dynasty) portions, with Jerusalem in the midst between them:

    Daniel 11:4 - And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

    After a long time with Greece and its division (Daniel 11:3,4,5-19) would come Rome (Daniel 11:20) in various phases. We will pause here, and consider that Gabriel got all of that from that which was "noted in the Scripture of Truth".

    Therefore, we should be able to go back into the OT, and see a similar pattern of History up to the time of Cyrus II the Great and the release of God's people from physical Babylon. However, we will have to know where to start, so we had better consider Cyrus II the Great in Scripture a moment, to see where we ought to begin with before him, and then unto him.

    Who came before Cyrus that is like Cyrus? Well, we briefly need to take a look at Cyrus:

    Isaiah 41:2 - Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow.

    Isaiah 46:11 - Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

    Isaiah 44:26 - That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

    Isaiah 44:27 - That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:

    Isaiah 44:28 - That saith of Cyrus, [He is] my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

    Isaiah 45:1 - Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

    Isaiah 45:2 - I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

    Isaiah 45:3 - And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel.

    2 Chronicles 36:22 - Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD [spoken] by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and [put it] also in writing, saying,

    2 Chronicles 36:23 - Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which [is] in Judah. Who [is there] among you of all his people? The LORD his God [be] with him, and let him go up.

    Ezra 1:1 - Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and [put it] also in writing, saying,

    Ezra 1:2 - Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which [is] in Judah.

    Ezra 1:3 - Who [is there] among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which [is] in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he [is] the God,) which [is] in Jerusalem.

    Ezra 1:4 - And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that [is] in Jerusalem.

    Etc.

    What are the points we can consider to look for?

    [1] Righteous Man, a man that executheth My [God's] Counsel, a servant
    [2] [He is] my shepherd
    [3] From the East, Deliverer
    [4] God was to subdue the Nations before Him/them
    [5] God, "I" will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight
    [6] That saith to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid
    [7] That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers
    [8] Anointed
    [9] Cyrus name means "Glory of a blazing furnace/sun"
    [0] Great treasures/wealth would be given unto him


    Who in the history before Cyrus II, is like unto that?

    Simple.

    Then we follow history after him ... and this would be before the time of Daniel. Then we can consider also the time after Daniel, likewise.

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyGospelShoes View Post
    History is repeating. Demonstrated from the Bible.

    Ecclesiastes 1:9 - The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun.
    Looks like you're trying to systematize a very general principle of history, namely that it repeats itself? The cycles in nature indeed can inform us of truths about human experience on this planet. However, I'm not sure we can always find an exact parallel in history preceding every biblical event, in order to learn from it. Is that what you mean?

    If so, I don't think I can use this kind of parallelism as a tool of interpretation. There are some good examples where we can indeed use this, but only in a relatively few cases--certainly not in all cases.

  10. #40
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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    randyk said: "Is that what you mean?"

    My reply: Look at the last questions asked in my response, and the 10 or so points related. This will help with what I am attempting to show.

  11. #41
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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyGospelShoes View Post
    randyk said: "Is that what you mean?"

    My reply: Look at the last questions asked in my response, and the 10 or so points related. This will help with what I am attempting to show.
    Shiny, just click on the "Reply With Quote" button, and it will provide my statements, to which you can then respond. I already read your response, and the 10 points.

  12. #42
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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Sorry, randyk, but I have tried numerous times, including this time, to reply with quote and even to use the multiquote, but to no avail. I cannot even use the edit button, for when I do, it just "spins" and stalls out. The message seems to appear for a brief second and then the whole thing vanishes into the aether after that, and even autosave function doesn't retain the material. I have tried numerous times.

    I am also receiving and error code when I first log in above the main forums. I think it was a checksum error, but I will try to copy it when it happens again to post it.

    My apologies.

  13. #43
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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Here is the error I receive randyk above the forums:

    "Warning: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in ..../includes/class_block.php on line 442"

  14. #44
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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyGospelShoes View Post
    Sorry, randyk, but I have tried numerous times, including this time, to reply with quote and even to use the multiquote, but to no avail. I cannot even use the edit button, for when I do, it just "spins" and stalls out. The message seems to appear for a brief second and then the whole thing vanishes into the aether after that, and even autosave function doesn't retain the material. I have tried numerous times.

    I am also receiving and error code when I first log in above the main forums. I think it was a checksum error, but I will try to copy it when it happens again to post it.

    My apologies.
    Please don't give up. Evil people have tried to poison and destroy this forum by inputting massive subject lines involving porn.

    I don't know if these people are the cause of the "edit" problems but you're right. It used to work well, and no longer does.

    There is another complicated way of editing, involving the use of "default mobile style," available in a drop down field at the bottom left. However, this also has stopped working for me--it largely causes me to delete my entire reply.

    However, my "Reply With Quote" function still works. It looks like we have different experiences? For now I'm just persevering. Thanks for the explanation.

  15. #45
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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    This Thread is about understanding Daniel's fifth and longest prophecy, starting from the time of Daniel. Much has been fulfilled as the various comments point out. But little if any about what lies in store for those of us who just might be here to witness the commencement of the Tribulation at the "Time of the End". Many fail to understand that this book was "Sealed up, until the time of the end". (Dan.12:4&9) What information do you understand this prophecy has for those living during "The time of the End?"

    Attached is a commentary starting from 11:36 thr. 12:13. This portion of the prophecy is what I think we should be discussing as it lies ahead. And we need to mentally wrap out minds around it now so we won't loose our faith during very distressing times and abandon our faith and be deceived by the Anti-Christ when he appears.

    It is taken from the book, "Jesus Final Victory", and can be purchase at Amazon Books, either PDF download of paperback. I have not read anything its equal.

    Dan. 10-12

    Prophecy 5 & Epilogue
    Wars Between the North & South Daniel 10:1-12:13
    Beginning Point in Time: 538 B.C. Ending Point in Time: Second Coming


    Summary: This vision contains two stories. The firsts story describes a series of battles that conclude with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and the second story describes a battle that concludes with the destruction of the world at the Second Coming. Two stories are told in this vision because there are important parallels between them.

    Using repetition and enlargement, the second story amplifies the appearing of the horn described in Daniel 8. Remember the horn in Daniel 8 appears out of nowhere. We will discover in Prophecies 8 and 11 that Lucifer will be released from the Abyss (spirit realm). He will physically appear and establish a worldwide kingdom on Earth. To do this, he must destroy the religions and governments of the world. Jesus will permit the devil to do this for a minimum of two reasons. First, Jesus wants the universe to witness the nature of government that any sinner would establish if given the opportunity and absolute power to accomplish it. Second, Jesus enables the devil to destroy the religions and governments of Earth so that religious heritage and patriotism will not hinder any person from accepting salvation. In other words, when Satan is allowed to abolish patriotism and religious heritage, he will eliminate the two cherished refuges of all mankind. Suddenly, each person will find himself in a very difficult “no-man’s land.” Each wicked person will have to rethink the basis for his rebellion against the gospel of Christ. Whom will he now worship and obey – the visible despot who gloriously masquerades as God or the unseen Creator of Heaven and Earth that dwells in Heaven?

    The Time of the End
    The final segment of this vision pertains to those who will live at the time of the end. God has provided this information because the final generation needs to understand certain things about the time of wrath. The most amazing event prior to the Second Coming will be the physical appearing of the devil. The appearing and work of Lucifer is described twice in the book of Daniel. God uses repetition and enlargement to inform His children about the future activities of the devil.

    Dan. 11:36
    And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for what is determined shall be done.

    {36} “Two-thirds of the way through the Great Tribulation the forward advancement of the gospel of Jesus Christ will come to a stand still. At that point in time, almost everyone will have heard the gospel and will have made their decision to embrace it or reject it. Jesus became a man to save the world from sin. Lucifer will become a man to lead the world into destruction. God is fair. Jesus physically appeared and the devil will be permitted to physically appear. God allows the devil to physically appear so that sincere people can compare God’s way of love with Lucifer’s use of force, lies and manipulation. God will permit the devil to masquerade and exalt himself as Almighty God. God “sends this delusion” to complete the tyranny of evil that began thousands of years ago. The devil will make all kinds of outrageous claims and he will do as he pleases because no one can stop him. When he first appears, he will appear to be generous and benevolent. He will feed the multitudes, just as Jesus did, and perform incredible healing miracles with signs and wonders. All this will be done for one malevolent purpose; Lucifer seeks the worship and honor that belongs to Jesus. Meanwhile, the saints will be trapped in “no-man’s land.” They cannot unite with those who believe that the devil is God (the religious wicked) and they cannot unite with the non-religious wicked who want nothing to do with Lucifer. The devil will exalt and magnify himself above every god known to mankind and he will say unheard of things against the Most High God. Lucifer will eventually gain control of the whole world. However, his true identity will be exposed during the fifth bowl, for what has been predetermined by the Most High God will surely take place.

    Dan. 11:37
    Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
    Dan. 11:38
    But in his estate shall he honor the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall
he honor with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
    Dan. 11:39
    Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

    {37} “When the devil appears, he will show no respect for any of the traditional gods (false gods) which the people of the world honor and worship. The devil will show no respect for the Holy One of Israel, the Messiah, the male child which every woman in Israel desires to have as a Son. The devil will exalt himself above them all.
    {38} “Instead of respecting the gods that the world’s different religions have known and trusted, he will denounce them all and trample them into the dirt. When the sixth trumpet sounds, the devil will abolish the religions and governments of the world and in their place, he will establish a false theocracy (a one world church-state). Everyone will be carefully monitored because promotions and extra rations of food will be given to snitches. Everyone will be required to worship according to the laws that Lucifer establishes. The world will become as one city, and the devil’s fortress will be his government. He will turn brother against brother and neighbor against neighbor. Those who worship Lucifer will be fearful because there will be secret police everywhere. No one will be able to trust anyone. Lucifer will rule the world as ‘Lord of lords and King of kings through terror. Everyone on Earth will be required to obey his laws or be killed. The devil will inhance his theocracy with gold and silver, precious stones, and costly gifts.
    {39} “At the time of the sixth trumpet, Jesus will give the devil authority to forcibly take over the world. Lucifer will lead a fierce attack against the political powers that oppose him (the nonreligious wicked) and the devil’s theocracy will be set up. The devil and his followers will destroy a third of mankind. He will greatly honor those leaders who acknowledge that he is “God.” The devil will abolish the nations and religions of the world, he will dissolve all national boundaries and divide the world into ten sectors. He will appoint ten puppet-kings to rule as taskmasters over his slaves, the people of the world. The devil will claim ownership over all real estate and he will redistribute the land to the highest bidders. He will be heartless, ruthless, and lawless. This explains to some extent why the devil must be permitted to physically appear. Jesus wants everyone in the universe to observe what any sinner would do if given sovereign authority.

    Dan. 11:40
    And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
    Dan. 11:41
    He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
    Dan. 11:42-43
    He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.


    {40} “During the sixth trumpet, a few sincere people will come to their senses. When they observe Lucifer’s true character and his evil ways, they will repent of their rebellion and embrace Jesus and His gospel. A few people will finally see that in serving Jesus Christ, there is genuine freedom, but this truth will not become evident until they discover that Lucifer rules through slavery and bondage. Many non-religious people will refuse to embrace the gospel of Jesus and they will also hate the devil’s great authority. These people will unite (under the direction of a rebel king) and in a desperate effort to overthrow the devil, they will seal their own fate. The devil will respond with overwhelming force. He and his followers will attack his adversaries by land, air, and a great fleet of ships. He will invade and destroy many countries, and sweep through them like a tsunami, an unstoppable wall of water.
    {41} “During the sixth trumpet, Lucifer’s army will invade many countries, including Israel. His enemies will fall, but the Most High God will keep his success within bounds. Some of the Israelites escaped the destruction of Nebuchadnezzar by fleeing to the remote areas of Edom and Moab. In a similar way, God will sustain some of His people during the end of days. People like the leaders of Ammon, who kindly protected your people when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem, will also be delivered from Lucifer’s hand.
    {42} “Ultimately, the devil will impose his government on the world. Egypt will not escape his dominion. {43} The devil will also control the wealth of the world. Even those who hate him and those who hate the Most High God will have no choice but to submit to him, for no person will be able to buy or sell unless he submits to Lucifer’s laws and wears his mark (a tattoo called the mark of the beast).
    ————————————————————————————

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