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Thread: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

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    Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Who are these Persian kings that are to arise? Cyrus was the 1st king of the Persian, Achaemenid Empire. This prophecy was given to Darius to strengthen him (encouragement). There were 3 kings named Darius during the Achaemenid Empire. The only one that could have been living during thee lifetime of Daniel was the first one. This Darius was the 4th king (3rd successor) to the reign of Cyrus. But history records that there were probably 13 kings of Persia in this empire that ended at the hands of Alexander the great. Alexander is unquestionably the mighty king found in Daniel 11:3,4. I.e. nine more Persian kings arose after Daniel gave this prophecy. So, whether you take the historical or futuristic view of Daniel 11,12, can you identify the 4 Persian kings found here:

    Dan 11 KJV Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him. And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those. And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion. And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times. But out of a branch of her roots shall one stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north, and shall deal against them, and shall prevail: And shall also carry captives into Egypt their gods, with their princes, and with their precious vessels of silver and of gold; and he shall continue more years than the king of the north. So the king of the south shall come into his kingdom, and shall return into his own land. But his sons shall be stirred up, and shall assemble a multitude of great forces: and one shall certainly come, and overflow, and pass through: then shall he return, and be stirred up, even to his fortress. And the king of the south shall be moved with choler, and shall come forth and fight with him, even with the king of the north: and he shall set forth a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into his hand. And when he hath taken away the multitude, his heart shall be lifted up; and he shall cast down many ten thousands: but he shall not be strengthened by it. For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches. And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall. So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to withstand. But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed. He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him. After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause it to turn upon him. Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found. Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle. And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant. And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people. He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time. And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him. Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain. And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed. Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land. At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

    Be Blessed
    The PuP

  2. #2

    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    I love the Book of Daniel. Thanks for posting and getting us thinking on God's Word!

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    My NIV Bible identifies, after Darius the Mede, 3 more kings as Cambyses, Pseudo-Smerdis or Gaumata and Darius I. The 4th is Xerxes I, the wealthy king who opposed Greece. And then, as you suggest, there is Alexander the Great.

    Then you get the kings of the South, known as the Ptolemy's, and he kings of the North, known as Seleucus or Antiochus. Antiochus 4 E. is the greatest villain in this scenario, who is turned back from conquering all Egypt (for a 2nd time), and vents his anger upon the Jews.

    From http://www.apologeticspress.org/apco...=6&article=740
    According to history, the Persian kings reigned in the following order: Cyrus (560-530 B.C.), Cambyses (530-522), Smerdis (522), Darius I (522-486), Ahasuerus (486-465), Artaxerxes I (465-424), Darius II (423-405), and Artaxerxes II (405-358) [see Cook, 1983, p. 350].

    The above link explains a problem associated with identifying the specific order of these kings in Ezra 4. I find that a parenthical discussion of future kings are inserted into a discussion of the time of Darius 1. And so, the kings appear to be listed out of chronological order in this chapter.

    My view is that Artaxerxes 1 issued a decree in 457 BC, ultimately allowing Jerusalem to be fully restored. The temple had already been built, but the city had yet to have walls and city structures restored. This is the beginning point of the "490 years" mentioned by Dan 9, which were to lead to the beginning of Christ's ministry.

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    My NIV Bible identifies, after Darius the Mede, 3 more kings as Cambyses, Pseudo-Smerdis or Gaumata and Darius I. The 4th is Xerxes I, the wealthy king who opposed Greece. And then, as you suggest, there is Alexander the Great.

    Then you get the kings of the South, known as the Ptolemy's, and he kings of the North, known as Seleucus or Antiochus. Antiochus 4 E. is the greatest villain in this scenario, who is turned back from conquering all Egypt (for a 2nd time), and vents his anger upon the Jews.

    From http://www.apologeticspress.org/apco...=6&article=740
    According to history, the Persian kings reigned in the following order: Cyrus (560-530 B.C.), Cambyses (530-522), Smerdis (522), Darius I (522-486), Ahasuerus (486-465), Artaxerxes I (465-424), Darius II (423-405), and Artaxerxes II (405-358) [see Cook, 1983, p. 350].

    The above link explains a problem associated with identifying the specific order of these kings in Ezra 4. I find that a parenthical discussion of future kings are inserted into a discussion of the time of Darius 1. And so, the kings appear to be listed out of chronological order in this chapter.

    My view is that Artaxerxes 1 issued a decree in 457 BC, ultimately allowing Jerusalem to be fully restored. The temple had already been built, but the city had yet to have walls and city structures restored. This is the beginning point of the "490 years" mentioned by Dan 9, which were to lead to the beginning of Christ's ministry.
    The problem that I find with that is Darius the Mede is the son of "Ahaseurus",

    Dan 9:1 KJV In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

    This means that his father (Ahaseurus) was also a king. This points away from Darius being the same king as that referred to in Daniel 5. That being said, that would make Xerxes, (the supposed wealthy king) to be the successor [and not the 4th] to this Darius, the Mede, aka Darius Hystaspes, and the same Darius in which the temple was completed in the 6th year of his reign, (in approx 516 B.C.).

    Be Blessed
    The PuP

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    The problem that I find with that is Darius the Mede is the son of "Ahaseurus",

    Dan 9:1 KJV In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

    This means that his father (Ahaseurus) was also a king. This points away from Darius being the same king as that referred to in Daniel 5. That being said, that would make Xerxes, (the supposed wealthy king) to be the successor [and not the 4th] to this Darius, the Mede, aka Darius Hystaspes, and the same Darius in which the temple was completed in the 6th year of his reign, (in approx 516 B.C.).

    Be Blessed
    The PuP
    From biblehub commentaries on Dan 9.1:

    The king here referred to under this name was Cyaxares II, who lived between Astyages and Cyrus, and in whom was the title of king. He was the immediate successor of Belshazzar, and was the predecessor of Cyrus, and was the first of the foreign princes that reigned over Babylon.

    Different kings sometimes shared the same name. In this case the one in Dan 9.1 called "Darius the Mede," and "son of Ahaseurus," is actually Cyaxares II, son of Astyages. Both Cyaxares II (Darius the Mede) and Astyages (Ahaseurus) preceded King Cyrus. So they also preceded Darius 1 and Ahaseurus (Xerxes), as well as Darius II, all of whom came after Cyrus.

    Darius I and Darius II followed Cyrus. We read about Darius I in Ezra 4. Another Ahaseurus in Ezra 4 is Xerxes, and followed Darius I.

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    From biblehub commentaries on Dan 9.1:

    The king here referred to under this name was Cyaxares II, who lived between Astyages and Cyrus, and in whom was the title of king. He was the immediate successor of Belshazzar, and was the predecessor of Cyrus, and was the first of the foreign princes that reigned over Babylon.

    Different kings sometimes shared the same name. In this case the one in Dan 9.1 called "Darius the Mede," and "son of Ahaseurus," is actually Cyaxares II, son of Astyages. Both Cyaxares II (Darius the Mede) and Astyages (Ahaseurus) preceded King Cyrus. So they also preceded Darius 1 and Ahaseurus (Xerxes), as well as Darius II, all of whom came after Cyrus.

    Darius I and Darius II followed Cyrus. We read about Darius I in Ezra 4. Another Ahaseurus in Ezra 4 is Xerxes, and followed Darius I.
    Your response negates what is said and why.

    The*Achaemenid Empire*(/əˈkiːmənɪd/; 𐎧𐏁𐏂 Xšāça (Old Persian) "The*Empire" c. 550–330 BC), also called the First Persian*Empire, was an ancient Iranian*empire*based in Western Asia founded by Cyrus the Great.

    Cyaxares, was the Father of Cyrus. And Cyrus is the founder of the Achaeminid Empire. Cyaxares was not a Persian king. Verse 2 is about 3 MORE kings arising/ standing up in Persia.
    Daniel 11:2,

    BBE*And now I will make clear to you what is true. There are still three kings to come in Persia, and the fourth will have much greater wealth than all of them: and when he has become strong through his wealth, he will put his forces in motion against all the kingdoms of Greece.

    EasyEnglish*‘Now I will explain to you the things that will happen’, the**messenger said. ‘There will be three more kings in Persia and then a fourth (4th) king will come. He will be richer than all the other kings. He will become powerful because he is so rich. Then he will cause everybody to become angry with the**kingdom called Greece.’

    ISV*“‘Now I’ll tell you the truth: Pay attention! Three more kings will arise in Persia. Then a fourth will gain more than them all. As soon as he gains power by means of his wealth, he’ll stir up everyone against the Grecian kingdoms.

    KJVLite*And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than*they*all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

    LXXE*And now I will tell thee the truth. Behold, there shall yet rise up three kings in Persia: and the fourth shall be very far richer than all: and after that he is master of his wealth, he shall rise up against all the kingdoms of the Greeks.

    NET*Now I will tell you the truth.

    The Angel Gives a*Message to Daniel

    “Three more kings will arise for Persia. Then a fourth king will be unusually rich, more so than all who preceded him. When he has amassed power through his riches, he will stir up everyone against the kingdom of Greece.

    NHEB*And now what I show you is true. Look, there shall arise three more kings in Persia, and the fourth shall be far richer than all of them; and when he has grown strong through his riches, he shall stir up all the kingdom of Greece.

    SLT*And now I will announce the truth to thee. Behold, yet three kings standing up to Persia; and the fourth shall be rich of great riches above all: and in his becoming strong in his riches he shall rouse up all against the kingdoms of Grecia.

    WEB*“Now I will show you the truth. Behold, three more kings will stand up in Persia; and the fourth will be far richer than all of them. When he has grown strong through his riches, he will stir up all against the realm of Greece.

    YLT*and, now, truth I declare to thee, Lo, yet three kings are standing for Persia, and the fourth doth become far richer than all, and according to his strength by his riches he stirreth up the whole, with the kingdom of Javan.

    Be Blessed
    The PuP

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Your response negates what is said and why.

    The*Achaemenid Empire*(/əˈkiːmənɪd/; 𐎧𐏁𐏂 Xšāça (Old Persian) "The*Empire" c. 550–330 BC), also called the First Persian*Empire, was an ancient Iranian*empire*based in Western Asia founded by Cyrus the Great.

    Cyaxares, was the Father of Cyrus. And Cyrus is the founder of the Achaeminid Empire. Cyaxares was not a Persian king. Verse 2 is about 3 MORE kings arising/ standing up in Persia.
    Daniel 11:2,

    BBE*And now I will make clear to you what is true. There are still three kings to come in Persia, and the fourth will have much greater wealth than all of them: and when he has become strong through his wealth, he will put his forces in motion against all the kingdoms of Greece.

    EasyEnglish*‘Now I will explain to you the things that will happen’, the**messenger said. ‘There will be three more kings in Persia and then a fourth (4th) king will come. He will be richer than all the other kings. He will become powerful because he is so rich. Then he will cause everybody to become angry with the**kingdom called Greece.’

    ISV*“‘Now I’ll tell you the truth: Pay attention! Three more kings will arise in Persia. Then a fourth will gain more than them all. As soon as he gains power by means of his wealth, he’ll stir up everyone against the Grecian kingdoms.

    KJVLite*And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than*they*all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

    LXXE*And now I will tell thee the truth. Behold, there shall yet rise up three kings in Persia: and the fourth shall be very far richer than all: and after that he is master of his wealth, he shall rise up against all the kingdoms of the Greeks.

    NET*Now I will tell you the truth.

    The Angel Gives a*Message to Daniel

    “Three more kings will arise for Persia. Then a fourth king will be unusually rich, more so than all who preceded him. When he has amassed power through his riches, he will stir up everyone against the kingdom of Greece.

    NHEB*And now what I show you is true. Look, there shall arise three more kings in Persia, and the fourth shall be far richer than all of them; and when he has grown strong through his riches, he shall stir up all the kingdom of Greece.

    SLT*And now I will announce the truth to thee. Behold, yet three kings standing up to Persia; and the fourth shall be rich of great riches above all: and in his becoming strong in his riches he shall rouse up all against the kingdoms of Grecia.

    WEB*“Now I will show you the truth. Behold, three more kings will stand up in Persia; and the fourth will be far richer than all of them. When he has grown strong through his riches, he will stir up all against the realm of Greece.

    YLT*and, now, truth I declare to thee, Lo, yet three kings are standing for Persia, and the fourth doth become far richer than all, and according to his strength by his riches he stirreth up the whole, with the kingdom of Javan.

    Be Blessed
    The PuP
    I don't follow. Sorry, I was getting this directly from commentaries in Biblehub. I defer to their arguments. And I'm not sure you're saying anything different than I am with respect to the kings preexisting Cyrus: Astyages, Cyaxares, and Cyrus, who I've identified as Ahaseursus, Darius the Mede, and Cyrus. Following Cyrus was another Darius--Darius I, another Ahaseursus--Xerxes, followed by another Darius--Darius II, among others.

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't follow. Sorry, I was getting this directly from commentaries in Biblehub. I defer to their arguments. And I'm not sure you're saying anything different than I am with respect to the kings preexisting Cyrus: Astyages, Cyaxares, and Cyrus, who I've identified as Ahaseursus, Darius the Mede, and Cyrus. Following Cyrus was another Darius--Darius I, another Ahaseursus--Xerxes, followed by another Darius--Darius II, among others.
    I guess what I am saying is that Cyaxares, alias Darius, who preceded Cyrus, because he was king before there was a Persian empire (founded by Cyrus), would not qualify as the Darius of Daniel 11 because it is an encouragement to a Persian king, that 4 other Persian kings would follow...a dynastic extension was told to him.

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    The PuP

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    From biblehub commentaries on Dan 9.1:

    The king here referred to under this name was Cyaxares II, who lived between Astyages and Cyrus, and in whom was the title of king. He was the immediate successor of Belshazzar, and was the predecessor of Cyrus, and was the first of the foreign princes that reigned over Babylon.

    Different kings sometimes shared the same name. In this case the one in Dan 9.1 called "Darius the Mede," and "son of Ahaseurus," is actually Cyaxares II, son of Astyages. Both Cyaxares II (Darius the Mede) and Astyages (Ahaseurus) preceded King Cyrus. So they also preceded Darius 1 and Ahaseurus (Xerxes), as well as Darius II, all of whom came after Cyrus.

    Darius I and Darius II followed Cyrus. We read about Darius I in Ezra 4. Another Ahaseurus in Ezra 4 is Xerxes, and followed Darius I.
    IOW there are issues with the connection, for Dan 11 speak of those who comes after Darius the Mede, and who intriguingly (as Dan 10:1 shows was a sub-king under Cyrus.)

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    I guess what I am saying is that Cyaxares, alias Darius, who preceded Cyrus, because he was king before there was a Persian empire (founded by Cyrus), would not qualify as the Darius of Daniel 11 because it is an encouragement to a Persian king, that 4 other Persian kings would follow...a dynastic extension was told to him.

    Be Blessed
    The PuP
    Correct.
    The three are Cambyses II (also known as Artaxerxes) - Ezra 4:7 and 11, Bardiya (also known as Ahaseurus) - Ezra 4:6 and Esther 1:1, and then Darius the Great Ezra 4:5
    Note that Ezra makes it 100% clear that the plans are frustrated UNTIL Darius and we know that the temple was finished DURING the reign of Darius. Anyone who claims differently (like randyk) is going against what is explicitly stated in scripture.
    Xerxes (also known as Ahaseurus) is then the 4th king, and is also mentioned in Esther 1:1 as a comparative with the previous Ahaseurus.

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    I guess what I am saying is that Cyaxares, alias Darius, who preceded Cyrus, because he was king before there was a Persian empire (founded by Cyrus), would not qualify as the Darius of Daniel 11 because it is an encouragement to a Persian king, that 4 other Persian kings would follow...a dynastic extension was told to him.

    Be Blessed
    The PuP
    Right, I'm simply relying on the notes for my NIV Bible, which has Darius the Mede as Gubaru or Cyaxares, who may have shared rule with Cyrus. These prophecies have to do with Persia, and whether Mede or Persian, the individuals mentioned ruled the territory of Persia.

    Thus, the rule of Darius the Mede has to do with the beginning of Persia's rule over Babylon, together with the acquisition of Daniel as a "wise man." Darius the Mede does in fact qualify in Dan 11.1 as one of the rulers "rising in Persia."

    I'm just saying that you're not making a compelling case with this argument. A Mede can share rule in Persia with a Persian king and so be included among the Persian rulers.

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Correct.
    The three are Cambyses II (also known as Artaxerxes) - Ezra 4:7 and 11, Bardiya (also known as Ahaseurus) - Ezra 4:6 and Esther 1:1, and then Darius the Great Ezra 4:5
    Note that Ezra makes it 100% clear that the plans are frustrated UNTIL Darius and we know that the temple was finished DURING the reign of Darius. Anyone who claims differently (like randyk) is going against what is explicitly stated in scripture.
    Xerxes (also known as Ahaseurus) is then the 4th king, and is also mentioned in Esther 1:1 as a comparative with the previous Ahaseurus.
    I agree that those 3 kings followed Darius the Mede, who apparently ruled alongside Cyrus. They are Cambyses, Pseudo-Smerdis or Gaumata and Darius I, as I said in post #3. And you're right--it's 100% clear that the temple of the Lord was being built, and that it was taking place in the reign of Darius the Great, and that these plans were being frustrated. So far so good.

    The claim that I'm saying differently is misrepresenting the truth about my position in this respect. This is exactly what I believe and have said previously, as far as I recall. I also believe that Xerxes, of Esther's fame, is the 4th king in this series. I don't understand why you're "pouring out this reproach" on me over things I expressly stated I believe in post #3?

    I think the issues we argued over before has to do with what Ezra said followed the reign of Darius the Great in Ezra 4. And it has to do with the argument over Artaxerxes' decree to "rebuild the city."

    Following Darius the Great we do read of Xerxes and of further events in Ezra 4. At the end of the chapter, Ezra appears to return to reference to the reign of Darius the Great.

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree that those 3 kings followed Darius the Mede, who apparently ruled alongside Cyrus. They are Cambyses, Pseudo-Smerdis or Gaumata and Darius I, as I said in post #3. And you're right--it's 100% clear that the temple of the Lord was being built, and that it was taking place in the reign of Darius the Great, and that these plans were being frustrated. So far so good.

    The claim that I'm saying differently is misrepresenting the truth about my position in this respect. This is exactly what I believe and have said previously, as far as I recall. I also believe that Xerxes, of Esther's fame, is the 4th king in this series. I don't understand why you're "pouring out this reproach" on me over things I expressly stated I believe in post #3?
    Actually no I am not misrepresenting you, for you were claiming this:
    My view is that Artaxerxes 1 issued a decree in 457 BC, ultimately allowing Jerusalem to be fully restored.
    Thus implying that Artaxerxes was in fact a) the first of that name, and b) that the Artaxerxes in Ezra 4 was therefore the same king.

    I think the issues we argued over before has to do with what Ezra said followed the reign of Darius the Great in Ezra 4. And it has to do with the argument over Artaxerxes' decree to "rebuild the city."
    Following Darius the Great we do read of Xerxes and of further events in Ezra 4. At the end of the chapter, Ezra appears to return to reference to the reign of Darius the Great.
    There is no mention in Ezra 4 for the city to be rebuilt nor does the Artaxerxes in Ezra 4 speak about doing such a thing, but actually the opposite.
    You also muddy the waters by claiming that somehow kings who were to come AFTER the events of Dan 11:2 has happened could somehow be written of out of sequence.
    Finally it is not ONLY clear that the temple of the Lord was being rebuilt but also that the rebuilding was COMPLETED during the reign of Darius the Great, who was the third king after Cyrus.
    Daniel 11 should be read with Daniel 10. Helps to clarify a bit.

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    I guess what I am saying is that Cyaxares, alias Darius, who preceded Cyrus, because he was king before there was a Persian empire (founded by Cyrus), would not qualify as the Darius of Daniel 11 because it is an encouragement to a Persian king, that 4 other Persian kings would follow...a dynastic extension was told to him.

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    Agreed and a Mede is NOT a Persian. No Mede rules over Persia, only had positions of power over a portion of it.

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    Re: Who are the three, rather 4 Persian kings of Daniel 11,12?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually no I am not misrepresenting you, for you were claiming this:
    Thus implying that Artaxerxes was in fact a) the first of that name, and b) that the Artaxerxes in Ezra 4 was therefore the same king.
    I see. So it's not what I said I believe, but what you believe to be the *implications* of what I believe that makes you say I misrepresent Scriptural truth? That kind of sounds like a difference of opinion? So take it up with the NIV commentators, who I am getting my views from! Maybe you should refer to them as "misrepresenting the Scriptures?"

    Quite frankly, I see nothing wrong with their position. The difficulties appear to be resolved as I have explained previously. And if I and the NIV commentators are correct, then it is *you* who are misrepresenting the Scriptures!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    There is no mention in Ezra 4 for the city to be rebuilt nor does the Artaxerxes in Ezra 4 speak about doing such a thing, but actually the opposite.
    That's an argument from silence, and therefore weak. The very liklihood that this is, in fact, Artaxerxes I, indicates that he is related to the later description of a mandate to replenish the worship and to thus complete the decree originally made by King Cyrus, which was not just to restore the temple but also the city. In fact, the walls of the city were reconstructed during the reign of Artaxerxes I.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    You also muddy the waters by claiming that somehow kings who were to come AFTER the events of Dan 11:2 has happened could somehow be written of out of sequence.
    No, I'm not doing that. I believe the events of Dan 11 took place in historical sequence.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Finally it is not ONLY clear that the temple of the Lord was being rebuilt but also that the rebuilding was COMPLETED during the reign of Darius the Great, who was the third king after Cyrus.
    The building of the temple was indeed completed in the reign of Darius the Great. We don't disagree on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Daniel 11 should be read with Daniel 10. Helps to clarify a bit.
    It seems we, as usual, disagree on who the Artaxerxes is in Ezra 4, and who the figure is at the end of Daniel 11, who I believe to be Antiochus 4. No big deal--we agree on some things. We disagree on others. We also disagree on the 70 Weeks.

    I think your problem is you want to analyze things for yourself, independent of pre-established positions. In doing so, you put yourself out on the margins, as if to sanction positions that are most agreeable to you.

    What you fail to recognize is that if you're the only one who gets it right, having a unique position, then everybody else got it wrong!

    You don't want to go there. You either are saying that the Holy Spirit failed to speak to most Christian thinkers in the past, or that He only spoke to your narrow group of compatriots, who hold to rather minority positions.

    My approach is to find a number of strong historical positions, knowing that the Holy Spirit does succeed in speaking to the Church, and not just to a few. Then I have to pick between these strong positions to find what is most agreeable to my thinking. That's the way it should be done, in my view.

    I'm not saying you do this all the time. But in difficult matters, such as the 70 Weeks prophecy, you seem to go in a very narrow direction. Unless I'm mistaken, there is little support for your view here, historically?

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