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Thread: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

  1. #46
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    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I wouldn't and didn't say many I said most. This is based on this thread and 29 years of listening. My thread renders an exhaustive definition of the term. It means the same for us that it did for Jesus, nothing more. Willing to suffer persecution unto death for the gospel.
    Many per group / most / majority etc. It's close enough to the same meaning for me to understand your point. Concerning this thread, you are entitled to your opinion , and I get 29 years of listening. I'm not far behind you on that. But for you to claim that your definition is exhaustive - or in other words there is nothing more that anyone can add to the definition - is VERY presumptuous as it can be applied to many different situations. The term "Take up your cross and follow me" can also be applied to simple persecution for being a believer. To endure in spite of circumstances. To finish one's race. etc. I'm sure that the audience it was written to could relate to it, as many did indeed take up their cross literally, but for many Christian's in this day and age, we must take up our cross metaphorically.

    I'm not disagreeing with your definition, in fact , like I said - I like it. But for us in the here and now who are not under threat of crucifixion, we can apply the metaphoric idea to different aspects of out lives where we have been persecuted for being a Christian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I wouldn't and didn't say many I said most. This is based on this thread and 29 years of listening. My thread renders an exhaustive definition of the term. It means the same for us that it did for Jesus, nothing more. Willing to suffer persecution unto death for the gospel.
    Many per group / most / majority etc. It's close enough to the same meaning for me to understand your point. Concerning this thread, you are entitled to your opinion , and I get 29 years of listening. I'm not far behind you on that. But for you to claim that your definition is exhaustive - or in other words there is nothing more that anyone can add to the definition - is VERY presumptuous as it can be applied to many different situations. The term "Take up your cross and follow me" can also be applied to simple persecution for being a believer. To endure in spite of circumstances. To finish one's race. etc. I'm sure that the audience it was written to could relate to it, as many did indeed take up their cross literally, but for many Christian's in this day and age, we must take up our cross metaphorically.

    I'm not disagreeing with your definition, in fact , like I said - I like it. But for us in the here and now who are not under threat of crucifixion, we can apply the metaphoric idea to different aspects of out lives where we have been persecuted for being a Christian.

  2. #47
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    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Many per group / most / majority etc. It's close enough to the same meaning for me to understand your point. Concerning this thread, you are entitled to your opinion , and I get 29 years of listening. I'm not far behind you on that. But for you to claim that your definition is exhaustive - or in other words there is nothing more that anyone can add to the definition - is VERY presumptuous as it can be applied to many different situations. The term "Take up your cross and follow me" can also be applied to simple persecution for being a believer. To endure in spite of circumstances. To finish one's race. etc. I'm sure that the audience it was written to could relate to it, as many did indeed take up their cross literally, but for many Christian's in this day and age, we must take up our cross metaphorically.

    I'm not disagreeing with your definition, in fact , like I said - I like it. But for us in the here and now who are not under threat of crucifixion, we can apply the metaphoric idea to different aspects of out lives where we have been persecuted for being a Christian.
    Well, since scripture doesn't add any more to what it means my definition is exhaustive. You say, "we can apply the metaphoric idea to different aspects of out lives where we have been persecuted for being a Christian" but experiencing persecution is the way the phrase is defined in scripture so I'm not sure why you think there's a difference.

  3. #48

    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    So sad that most don"t know what taking up their cross means.
    The cross is the death of the flesh.

    And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal.6:24

  4. #49
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    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    The cross is the death of the flesh.

    And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal.6:24
    That's Christ's cross not yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    The cross is the death of the flesh.

    And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal.6:24
    That's Christ's cross not yours.

  5. #50

    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    That's Christ's cross not yours.
    His cross is an example to us,

    For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps. 1Pet.2:21

    Ceasing from sin is the result of following Jesus.

  6. #51
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    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    His cross is an example to us,

    For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps. 1Pet.2:21

    Ceasing from sin is the result of following Jesus.
    Journeyman, when we read through the Gospels and really view the scriptures about Christ in the garden, praying to God the Father... we can truly understand Jesus' "Cross." Meaning, His purpose and how He is obedient to His purpose. Your comments are more about the results/authority provided to believers DUE to His obedience to "His Cross."

    When we take up our cross, it's about the utilization of this provision to complete whatever cross (purpose) we are given by God. So we can be obedient to His will/purpose for us. And yes, an element is authority over satan and to utilize this in keeping sin under our feet and resisting temptation.

    But our cross is not about sin "we" have, Christ's cross TOOK all that sin away and this happens the moment one repents in belief of Jesus. Then we can begin to fulfill whatever "cross" we have been given, to accomplish for the Kingdom.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  7. #52
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    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    His cross is an example to us,

    For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps. 1Pet.2:21

    Ceasing from sin is the result of following Jesus.
    Walking by faith/believing the gospel is not our cross. You said, "The cross is the death of the flesh." but when we first believe we are crucified (And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal.6:24), dead, buried, raised a new creature, to walk in newness of life. The old man is dead and gone. Ceasing from sin in our experience is done through our continued belief in the same gospel message/His Cross.

    As He suffered for us (His Cross) we are to suffer for the gospel/others (our cross). The mention of sin in the passage says we are dead to them because of what He did, not that we need to die to them by what we do.

    1Pe 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
    1Pe 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
    1Pe 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
    1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
    1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
    1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
    1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
    1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

  8. #53
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    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
    Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
    Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

  9. #54
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    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Your accused me of, "manufacturing something so profoundly outlandish (about God viewing Jesus as a sinner)". That's not true. That false doctrine was invented centuries ago and is still taught and believed by many. When I cited respected theologians showing this, you offered no apology for lying about me.
    Since you know the doctrine is false, why then did you cite it and expect praises from me? Whether the blasphemy that God viewed His Son as a sinner started with you or supposedly "invented years ago" by an unnamed scholar, my point is that it has no place in this discussion. Moreso, when you knew it to be false!

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    This is what the Bible says, Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin. 1Pet.4:1
    You misunderstood the passage as I have pointed out many times with scripture that no believer can claim to be above sin.

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man 1Tim.1:13
    So?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Following Jesus can't lead to sin.
    Following Jesus doesn't provide immunity to sin. As flesh, we remain susceptible to sin, however, it will not be unto death since Jesus has paid the price for us. When you understand the difference, you'll be better off.

  10. #55

    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Journeyman, when we read through the Gospels and really view the scriptures about Christ in the garden, praying to God the Father... we can truly understand Jesus' "Cross." Meaning, His purpose and how He is obedient to His purpose.
    We should understand Jesus's prayer in the garden, but many don't. For instance, John Gill in his commentary on Mt.26 says,

    "....when he prays that this cup might pass from him, his meaning is....that he might be freed from....the curse of the law, and wrath of God....Christ was under the hidings of his Father's face....he had the wrath of God poured out upon him....the human nature of Christ....had nothing in view but the wrath of God...."

    God's law doesn't approve of judgment, wrath, etc. against an innocent man, but those who hated Jesus transgressed God's law. The sufferings of Christ were caused by people inflicting their wrath on him, which was sin. Jesus, God in flesh, "bore mankind's sins" this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Your comments are more about the results/authority provided to believers DUE to His obedience to "His Cross."

    When we take up our cross, it's about the utilization of this provision t*o complete whatever cross (purpose) we are given by God. So we can be obedient to His will/purpose for us. And yes, an element is authority over satan and to utilize this in keeping sin under our feet and resisting temptation.
    Brother Slug, I don't disagree with what you're saying, because it's all the work of Christ in us. Paul said,

    That I may know him Phil.3:10

    To know the Lord by experience, to be made one with him, knowing his sufferings including his cross,
    is how we should want to know the love of our great Savior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    But our cross is not about sin "we" have, Christ's cross TOOK all that sin away and this happens the moment one repents in belief of Jesus. Then we can begin to fulfill whatever "cross" we have been given, to accomplish for the Kingdom.
    God forgives our sins if we repent (turn from sin), but we should should see "our cross" as overcoming sins which attempt to draw us away from the Lord.

  11. #56
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    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    God forgives our sins if we repent (turn from sin), but we should should see "our cross" as overcoming sins which attempt to draw us away from the Lord.
    Was Jesus' cross overcoming? No. Your concept cannot be found in scripture. Our cross has nothing to do with overcoming sin.

  12. #57

    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Walking by faith/believing the gospel is not our cross.
    It is, because it's believing the gospel that kills the flesh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    You said, "The cross is the death of the flesh." but when we first believe we are crucified (AIt isnd they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal.6:24), dead, buried, raised a new creature, to walk in newness of life. The old man is dead and gone.
    That's the way we should regard ourselves,

    Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom.6:12

    Through Christ means,

    I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Gal.5:16

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Ceasing from sin in our experience is done through our continued belief in the same gospel message/His Cross.
    I agree. It's all because of the work of Christ and Christ in us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    As He suffered for us (His Cross) we are to suffer for the gospel/others (our cross).
    That's right. This is what the Spirit of Christ in us reveals. Jesus died for mankind, not in place of mankind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    The mention of sin in the passage says we are dead to them because of what He did, not that we need to die to them by what we do.
    No. He means by faith because of what Jesus did. He's not teaching that Jesus received stripes, so I don't have to, or Jesus committed himself to his Father, so I don't have to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    1Pe 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
    1Pe 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
    1Pe 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
    1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
    1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
    1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
    1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
    1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
    Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1Pet.1:21

  13. #58

    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Was Jesus' cross overcoming? No. Your concept cannot be found in scripture. Our cross has nothing to do with overcoming sin.
    Of course Jesus's cross was oveecoming,

    through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil Heb.2:14

    Your statement, "Ceasing from sin in our experience is done through our continued belief in the same gospel message/His Cross", seems devoid of following Jesus.

  14. #59

    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Since you know the doctrine is false, why then did you cite it
    Because it wasn't clear to me what you meant by "Jesus paying the price for our sins".

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    and expect praises from me?
    Its good when believers can agree, but your approval has never been my goal. Please refrain from making false statements about my expectations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Whether the blasphemy that God viewed His Son as a sinner started with you or supposedly "invented years ago" by an unnamed scholar, my point is that it has no place in this discussion. Moreso, when you knew it to be false!
    As I said, I was wondering if you knew it to be false. You claim to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You misunderstood the passage as I have pointed out many times with scripture that no believer can claim to be above sin.
    From temptation, no. From the purpose of temptation, we certainly can, because Christ leads us and he doesn't lead us to sin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    So?
    So Paul was speaking of his past. For you to suggest Paul continued in blasphemy after coming to know the Lord is reprehensible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Following Jesus doesn't provide immunity to sin.
    As flesh, we remain susceptible to sin, however, it will not be unto death since Jesus has paid the price for us. When you understand the difference, you'll be better off.
    According to God's law, the price for sin is the death of the sinner, not the innocent. Jesus paid a price for sinners, not the price for sin. I'm sure now you don't know the difference.

  15. #60
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    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Well, since scripture doesn't add any more to what it means my definition is exhaustive. You say, "we can apply the metaphoric idea to different aspects of out lives where we have been persecuted for being a Christian" but experiencing persecution is the way the phrase is defined in scripture so I'm not sure why you think there's a difference.
    There are many different kinds of persecution other than crucifixion, so any reference outside of crucifixion is metaphoric, is it not ?

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