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Thread: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

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    "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    What does it mean to take up your cross "daily," if Christ was crucified "once for all?"

    "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. And [Jesus] said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it." (Luke 9:22-24)

    Does this mean we are symbolically crucified every day, or make the sacrifice to self repeatedly? That is the most common teaching from the passage, in my experience. But in reading, I've run into some problems:

    I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. (Galatians 2:20)
    We know that our old self was crucified with Him ... (Romans 6:6)
    Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:24)
    You, who were dead in your trespasses ... God made alive ... by canceling the record of debt ... nailing it to the cross. (Colossians 2)

    In the letters, the conversion by death to self is treated as a past-tense, one-time event that we have clear before-and-after states in. Our old selves were crucified "with Him." Our sins have been nailed to the cross of Christ - a past event. So my confusion now is that we cannot be crucified with Him multiple times - as He only died once for all. In fact the importance of this is one of the main ideas behind Hebrews:

    We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all ... Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins ... For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (Hebrews 10)

    So how can we be crucified with Christ "daily?"

    One idea is that Jesus in Luke 9 was speaking about carrying around our crucified self (meaning, living in our current fallen/sinful body daily), and following Him through the Spirit? Or perhaps this cross analogy was used for a totally separate topic from the other NT verses?
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    So how can we be crucified with Christ "daily?"

    One idea is that Jesus in Luke 9 was speaking about carrying around our crucified self (meaning, living in our current fallen/sinful body daily), and following Him through the Spirit? Or perhaps this cross analogy was used for a totally separate topic from the other NT verses?
    A, in the simplest means to express this, it means to obediently follow the calling Christ has for you and be committed all the time, even unto death (ultimate persecution or passing naturally).
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  3. #3

    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    What does it mean to take up your cross "daily," if Christ was crucified "once for all?"

    "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.” And [Jesus] said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it." (Luke 9:22-24)

    Does this mean we are symbolically crucified every day, or make the sacrifice to self repeatedly? That is the most common teaching from the passage, in my experience. But in reading, I've run into some problems:

    I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. (Galatians 2:20)
    We know that our old self was crucified with Him ... (Romans 6:6)
    Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:24)
    You, who were dead in your trespasses ... God made alive ... by canceling the record of debt ... nailing it to the cross. (Colossians 2)

    In the letters, the conversion by death to self is treated as a past-tense, one-time event that we have clear before-and-after states in. Our old selves were crucified "with Him." Our sins have been nailed to the cross of Christ - a past event. So my confusion now is that we cannot be crucified with Him multiple times - as He only died once for all. In fact the importance of this is one of the main ideas behind Hebrews:

    We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all ... Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins ... For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (Hebrews 10)

    So how can we be crucified with Christ "daily?"

    One idea is that Jesus in Luke 9 was speaking about carrying around our crucified self (meaning, living in our current fallen/sinful body daily), and following Him through the Spirit? Or perhaps this cross analogy was used for a totally separate topic from the other NT verses?

    we crucify the flesh , by following the spirit of life in the gospel....

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    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    What does it mean to take up your cross "daily," if Christ was crucified "once for all?"

    "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. And [Jesus] said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it." (Luke 9:22-24)

    Does this mean we are symbolically crucified every day, or make the sacrifice to self repeatedly? That is the most common teaching from the passage, in my experience. But in reading, I've run into some problems:

    I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. (Galatians 2:20)
    We know that our old self was crucified with Him ... (Romans 6:6)
    Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:24)
    You, who were dead in your trespasses ... God made alive ... by canceling the record of debt ... nailing it to the cross. (Colossians 2)

    In the letters, the conversion by death to self is treated as a past-tense, one-time event that we have clear before-and-after states in. Our old selves were crucified "with Him." Our sins have been nailed to the cross of Christ - a past event. So my confusion now is that we cannot be crucified with Him multiple times - as He only died once for all. In fact the importance of this is one of the main ideas behind Hebrews:

    We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all ... Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins ... For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (Hebrews 10)

    So how can we be crucified with Christ "daily?"

    One idea is that Jesus in Luke 9 was speaking about carrying around our crucified self (meaning, living in our current fallen/sinful body daily), and following Him through the Spirit? Or perhaps this cross analogy was used for a totally separate topic from the other NT verses?

    You will notice that "YOUR (our) cross" is not connected with salvation, but is connected generally with our daily walk, and specifically with entering, or inheriting the Kingdom. Because most Christians believe that it is the Kingdom IN Heaven, and not the "Kingdom (out) OF Heaven", I will briefly define the Kingdom.

    A Kingdom is a sphere or domain where a certain king is obeyed - one where his RULE is in effect. A man might be a king but if he is in exile or his subjects do not obey him, he has no kingdom. A pillar of the Bible is God's Kingdom as it pertains to the EARTH. From Genesis 1:28-28, through Noah, through Abraham, through Israel's conquest of Canaan, through Daniel's prophecies right to Revelation 22:5, the issue is that God wants to establish His RULE, as it is established in Heaven, ON EARTH. But alas, Adam and his offspring singularly disregard, ignore and even actively resist God's RULE ON EARTH. So not only in Daniel's prophecies, but before our eyes today, we can see that the TIME when God established His rule on earth is still future. It is instituted by our Lord Jesus at His return to earth.

    God's immutable council is that MAN is given rule over the earth. But men, instead of applying God's rule, have voluntarily subjected themselves to an angel. The catastrophic result is TWOFOLD. (1) Man's FLESH was poisoned beyond recovery by what he ate, and (2) the RULE that emanates from those men in authority reflects Lucifer, the angel in charge, and not God. And this decision was made by Adam BEFORE the fall. That is, he made a conscious decision in favor of himself, and against God BEFORE HE WAS BURDENED WITH THE EFFECTS OF HIS WRONG EATING. This is decisive in God's management of man AFTER the the fall. God, when he institutes His Kingdom on earth, CANNOT allow this same fiasco. The Kingdom, the TYPE of RULE, reflects on the King, and God cannot allow men who serve themselves, to be in authority. So He sets forth a TRAINING GROUND for aspiring kings.

    As Eve looked upon the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, is seemed to her that something good was being withheld by God. The Fruit of this Tree looked;
    1. Good to eat - a function of the flesh. That is, it appealed to the flesh
    2. Good to look at - a thing of beauty to be possessed. That is, ownership would bring pleasure
    3. Good to make one full of wisdom and intelligence - a sure way to become famous. That is, it appealed to the pride of life

    We know in hindsight that far from achieving these things, the fruit if that Tree brought the death of the flesh, unhappiness in ownership and men's minds were darkened by it. But Eve did not have hindsight. What Eve had was the WORD OF GOD. She did not understand it, and using her own understanding, thought that God was being unreasonable and withholding something good. So the TRAINING of future kings in God's Kingdom addresses this trait in a man. He is to LEARN to DENY HIMSELF and brutally adhere to God's WORD IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES. Let us take two examples:
    1. The Lord sends you to teach in a remote area. Food is scarce, sleep is scarce and disease is rampant. Are not food, sleep and protection from disease LEGITIMATE desires? YES! But you obey the Lord and return from your teaching trip having lost weight, bitterly exhausted and sick. What did you do in effect? You set aside LEGITIMATE needs for God's WORD and suffered. Was God unreasonable? Well ... some would say yes because God was able to meet those legitimate needs by His power, but He didn't. You will be left WONDERING - like Eve. But what is the ultimate gain of this rigorous exercise? It is that you, for God's WORD ALONE put your flesh to death. You might never know why God did not meet LEGITIMATE NEEDS, but you are FIT TO BE A KING IN HIS KINGDOM. You will carry out His WORD UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES! And how did you do it? By putting your flesh on YOUR CROSS - and that, DAILY
    2. But what of the ILLEGITIMATE desires of the flesh? If you are separated from your spouse for time, scripture says that "we BURN" (1st Cor.7:9). But God forbids fornication and adultery, things that can satisfy the "burning" of the flesh. Galatians 5:19-21 shows the works of the flesh, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. And it says in verse 17 that the flesh, "lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." And then to crown it all, Romans Chapter 7 shows that a LAW of sin and death DWELLS in the flesh. What then is the remedy for this? YOUR CROSS! And that - DAILY.

    In closing we must also deal with the difference between Christ's CROSS and YOUR CROSS.

    Man has two great problems with God. (1) His RELATIONSHIP with God is foul. Man's very being, position, attitude and loyalty to God is one of ENMITY. (2) His WALK is foul. Everything he does, because it comes from a bad tree, is bad - even his best works. So God deals with man's POSITION in a different way to the way He deals with man's DISPOSITION.
    1. To set man in a right PLACE with God, God must apply a work of His because man is singuarly unable to meet God's standard. Adam and Eve's fig leaved garments satisfied them, but when God appeared Adam calls himself "naked" - even though he had the fig-leaves garment. So God takes a substitute THAT MEETS HIS STANDARD and clothes Adam. God puts Adam IN the skin, or covering of the ACCEPTABLE SUBSTITUTE. So also with us. There is NOTHING we can do to meet God's standard as we stand before Him. Our PLACE, or POSITION before God must be secured by the works of another WORTHY ONE. So for all God to meet with man, and even live IN him (as He does with us), God puts believers INTO Christ. When God looks at us, He only sees Christa - and is satisfied. Even our death because of sin does not satisfy God. That is only justice, but not reconciliation. So God, in putting us IN Christ, puts us INTO His LIFE, DEATH and RESURRECTION.
    2. But God has other requirements from man. Man is to be a TESTIMONY for His Name, and man is to BUILD Him a House. Adam was not only to be in the "likeness" of God, but he was to "dress and keep" the garden where God walked. While point #1 above is GOD'S WORK, the man also has HIS WORK for his Master. And the great hindrance to this WORK and WALK is the flesh. God sets a battlefield INSIDE of man. He does not reform the flesh so that man can be good. He has declared an everlasting ENMITY between the Holy Spirit inside the human spirit of man, and the FLESH which houses the man. They are mortal enemies, and there can, and must be, ONLY ONE WINNER. One must DIE. And here it is the man himself who decides. Will he bow to God inside his human spirit, or will he bow to the flesh. There is no compromise. It is ONE or the OTHER. And so the MAN HIMSELF must decide. And God's command is that the man PUT HIS FLESH ON A PERSONAL CROSS. This cross is not for the remission of sins. This cross is not for someone else. It is a PERSONAL CROSS where the man who wants to walk and work with God BRUTALLY SAYS NO TO THE SCREAMING FLESH. And until the Christian has made an earnest decision that his "beloved" flesh is actually his enemy, and has made an earnest decision to "terminate" its desires and lusts, and has learned to do this practically, he will be slave to his flesh. There is only one end to the flesh. Now in this life it must be nailed to the cross, not Christ's cross, but YOUR (personal) cross. And after it dies, it must be resurrected a new and heavenly body. The flesh is good for nothing except DYING.

    1. The CROSS OF CHRIST solves man's problems with God
    2. The PERSONAL CROSS solves man's problems with HIMSELF

    1. The CROSS OF CHRIST puts man in front of God legally
    2. The PERSONAL CROSS enables man to do his duty

    1. The CROSS OF CHRIST upholds God's righteousness when dealing with a guilty creature
    2. The PERSONAL CROSS establishes man's righteousness for REWARD

    1. The CROSS OF CHRIST saves a man from God's wrath
    2. The PERSONAL CROSS saves a man from failing to attain his high calling

    1. The CROSS OF CHRIST puts us in line for God's BLESSINGS
    2. The PERSONAL CROSS puts us in line for our INHERITANCE

  5. #5

    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    What does it mean to take up your cross "daily," if Christ was crucified "once for all?"
    Carrying your cross daily is synonymous with ceasing from sin (1Pet.4:1). Not that Jesus needed to cease from sin, as he is without sin to begin with, but his life in the flesh was an example to us,

    For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps. 1Pet.2:21

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    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Romans Chapter 7 shows that a LAW of sin and death DWELLS in the flesh. What then is the remedy for this? YOUR CROSS! And that - DAILY [....] And God's command is that the man PUT HIS FLESH ON A PERSONAL CROSS [....] Now in this life it must be nailed to the cross, not Christ's cross, but YOUR (personal) cross.
    In essence I agree with what you're saying, along the lines of Galatians 5:

    For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do ... If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. (Gal. 5:17, 25)

    But Galatians does not use specifically "our cross" or "our crucifixion" as a daily concept.

    And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (5:24)

    So it's because we have crucified the flesh that the Spirit is at war in us and we live by it. It's not that we continuously crucify the flesh or decide to be dead each day.

    I'm struggling to find this concept of "daily crucifixion" and proof that it refers to our battle against the flesh. Those passages which speak of the daily Christian walk and growth in the Spirit vs. sin do not use death to self on the cross (ours or Christ's) as multiple or ongoing events. If you're aware of somewhere which says this, that would be appreciated.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    A, in the simplest means to express this, it means to obediently follow the calling Christ has for you and be committed all the time, even unto death (ultimate persecution or passing naturally).
    So you would say Jesus's use of "cross" is completely separate from the crucifixion itself? It's symbolic for our individual callings, but doesn't have to do with salvation or growth in the Spirit, etc.? IOW Jesus just used "cross" because that was His particular calling.

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps. 1Pet.2:21
    Okay, so the "cross" speaks more to the suffering than the death aspect in Luke 9? We do die to self once, but we suffer daily.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Carrying your cross daily signifies the potentiality of even losing one's life for Christ. We demostrste our willingness to serve by daily facing the eventuality of persecution and death.

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    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Carrying your cross daily is synonymous with ceasing from sin (1Pet.4:1). Not that Jesus needed to cease from sin, as he is without sin to begin with, but his life in the flesh was an example to us,

    For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps. 1Pet.2:21
    On the contrary, the cross symbolizes punishment and death. Therefore, carrying our cross to follow Christ IMO denotes perseverance, longsuffering, patience, etc. in the face of persecution and suffering inherent in the service of Christ. It has nothing to do with ceasing from sin as claimed.

    For he that is DEAD is freed [ceases] from sin (Rom 6:7). Only the dead are incapable of sin.

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    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    In essence I agree with what you're saying, along the lines of Galatians 5:

    For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do ... If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. (Gal. 5:17, 25)

    But Galatians does not use specifically "our cross" or "our crucifixion" as a daily concept.

    And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (5:24)

    So it's because we have crucified the flesh that the Spirit is at war in us and we live by it. It's not that we continuously crucify the flesh or decide to be dead each day.

    I'm struggling to find this concept of "daily crucifixion" and proof that it refers to our battle against the flesh. Those passages which speak of the daily Christian walk and growth in the Spirit vs. sin do not use death to self on the cross (ours or Christ's) as multiple or ongoing events. If you're aware of somewhere which says this, that would be appreciated.
    Correct. Galatians does not address US taking up OUR cross. It addresses that which has been done by being IN Christ. Galatians 2:16-21 addresses man's POSITION IN CHRIST. It is all past tense.

    16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
    18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
    19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
    20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."


    But Romans 8:1-14 deals with the SOLUTION to a Law that dwells in my flesh and makes it "this BODY of death". It has to do, not with our POSITION of justification IN Christ, but our daily battle against the seeming insurmountable Law of sin. We are not to try on our own. To overcome sin in our daily walk TWO THINGS ARE NEEDED
    1. We are to turn to the human spirit because the Holy Spirit dwells there and He, by having the LIFE of Christ added to Him, is able to overcome the Law of sin and death
    2. We are to "MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY" in verse 13. I know it says "through the Spirit". But it is the man who DECIDES and APPLIES the Holy Spirit. Remember, "... the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets" (1st Corinthians 14:32). That is, the RESOURCE is the Holy Spirit, but saying 'no' to the flesh and applying the Holy Spirit lies in the power of the Christian.

    1. The first is to turn to the RESOURCE, not of self discipline because Romans 7 has established that even the most disciplined and zealous man cannot overcome the Law of sin and death. The man must turn to the Holy Spirit who embodies the sum total of the divine and human life of Jesus. And that is found in the human spirit - the Holy of Holies of the Temple that is the man.
    2. But the minute a man turns to God to obey, the flesh rears up in opposition. Here, the man can do something. He applies HIS OWN CROSS. An example is best. A man is on a business trip. He misses his wife. In the bar of the hotel he meets an attractive women. If things follow the way of the world there will be a progression that will end in adultery. The first is to talk to that person. Then there is the offer to buy her a drink. Then there will be secrets exchanged, or at least intimacies will be revealed. Then one will touch the other. Then, the accumulation of loneliness, desire, a sense of conquest, exchanged intimacies and the touching will lead to one or the other's room in the hotel. And each step pf the way could have been avoided. HOW? By just saying a brutal NO to the flesh.

    To avoid the lone woman when the flesh is crying out is not easy. But it is the easiest crucifixion of the body. Lust has not taken hold. Blood is not pounding. The hormones are still relaxed. But when the man gets intimate with the woman, to walk away takes a much bigger "killing of the flesh". And in the moment in the hotel room when they are stripping off their clothes the man will almost not be able to say no to the flesh. If he does, he will stumble out that room bathed in perspiration and shaking with spent adrenaline. In each step on the way to adultery there was a moment to crucify the flesh. The fist was the easiest, the last the most terrible - so terrible that the man will most probably succumb. If the man was taught about crucifying the flesh, and he was trained to do it immediately, he would save a small brook turning into a raging torrent. But somewhere in the progression, he has to crucify the flesh. If not, he has submitted to the flesh - THE ENEMY OF GOD (Romans 8:7).

    Here is the text for reference:

    1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
    12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
    13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

  11. #11

    Cool Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    In essence I agree with what you're saying, along the lines of Galatians 5:

    For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do ... If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. (Gal. 5:17, 25)

    But Galatians does not use specifically "our cross" or "our crucifixion" as a daily concept.

    And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (5:24)

    So it's because we have crucified the flesh that the Spirit is at war in us and we live by it. It's not that we continuously crucify the flesh or decide to be dead each day.

    I'm struggling to find this concept of "daily crucifixion" and proof that it refers to our battle against the flesh. Those passages which speak of the daily Christian walk and growth in the Spirit vs. sin do not use death to self on the cross (ours or Christ's) as multiple or ongoing events. If you're aware of somewhere which says this, that would be appreciated.
    Well, this comes to mind. 1 Cor. 15:31 "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily."

    Permit me to ramble on for a bit. My health issues are at times, overwhelming. But the Spirit of the Lord is strongest while I am overcome by them.*I have a bad sphincter valve and I inhale a little of my food when I eat. It has gotten so bad, It seems the next bout of infection will end me. I get a little cut on my leg and a bacteria moves in that has survived two rounds of antibiotics. I am currently using drawing salve on it.

    It seems everything is working against me and yet I feel more productive, in the Lord's work. So, are these little annoyances suffering? I find that I don't know and I don't care. Maybe God is preparing me for something. I fully believe all things work for my good (Romans 8:28). I am also persuaded that the suffering in this life is not to be compared to the glory awaiting us (Rom. 8:18).
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  12. #12

    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    What does it mean to take up your cross "daily," if Christ was crucified "once for all?"

    "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. And [Jesus] said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it." (Luke 9:22-24)

    Does this mean we are symbolically crucified every day, or make the sacrifice to self repeatedly? That is the most common teaching from the passage, in my experience. But in reading, I've run into some problems:

    I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. (Galatians 2:20)
    We know that our old self was crucified with Him ... (Romans 6:6)
    Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:24)
    You, who were dead in your trespasses ... God made alive ... by canceling the record of debt ... nailing it to the cross. (Colossians 2)

    In the letters, the conversion by death to self is treated as a past-tense, one-time event that we have clear before-and-after states in. Our old selves were crucified "with Him." Our sins have been nailed to the cross of Christ - a past event. So my confusion now is that we cannot be crucified with Him multiple times - as He only died once for all. In fact the importance of this is one of the main ideas behind Hebrews:

    We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all ... Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins ... For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (Hebrews 10)

    So how can we be crucified with Christ "daily?"

    One idea is that Jesus in Luke 9 was speaking about carrying around our crucified self (meaning, living in our current fallen/sinful body daily), and following Him through the Spirit? Or perhaps this cross analogy was used for a totally separate topic from the other NT verses?
    I love the teachings of Jesus to his disciples; copied below in John 15:13-17.

    But seems to be in alignment with your post regarding: To take up your cross "daily,"
    Both seem to be related to the bringing forth fruit as a Christian. Namely, perfecting within ourselves demonstrations of self denial, obedience, and love.
    John 15
    13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
    14) Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
    15) Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
    16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
    17) These things I command you, that ye love one another.

  13. #13

    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Okay, so the "cross" speaks more to the suffering than the death aspect in Luke 9? We do die to self once, but we suffer daily.
    They go hand in hand. It's good that you started this thread, because it shows clearly how Jesus suffered for us at the hands of people who hated God, not suffered the wrath of God. And our Savior clearly said his disciples would suffer as he did,

    If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.... I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.... If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you....because they know not him that sent me. Jn.15:18-21

    Carrying our cross is bearing the burden of the Lord (Mt.11:29), which was to suffer for the welfare of others, because of Gods love for them,

    That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death Phil.3:10

  14. #14

    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    On the contrary, the cross symbolizes punishment and death.
    Punishment and death at the hands of who?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Therefore, carrying our cross to follow Christ IMO denotes perseverance, longsuffering, patience, etc. in the face of persecution and suffering inherent in the service of Christ. It has nothing to do with ceasing from sin as claimed.
    If it has nothing to do with ceasing from sin, then you won't suffer as Jesus did,

    Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Heb.12:4

    In fact, the ungodly will love you,

    for sinners also love those that love them. Lk.6:32

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    For he that is DEAD is freed [ceases] from sin (Rom 6:7). Only the dead are incapable of sin.
    That's true in one sense, but that sense also means we're alive to God and it's in this sense that some teachers have perverted the sacrifice of our dear Lord Jesus.

  15. #15

    Re: "Take Up Your Cross" & Multiple Crucifixions

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    What does it mean to take up your cross "daily," if Christ was crucified "once for all?"

    "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.” And [Jesus] said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it." (Luke 9:22-24)

    Does this mean we are symbolically crucified every day, or make the sacrifice to self repeatedly? That is the most common teaching from the passage, in my experience. But in reading, I've run into some problems:

    I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. (Galatians 2:20)
    We know that our old self was crucified with Him ... (Romans 6:6)
    Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:24)
    You, who were dead in your trespasses ... God made alive ... by canceling the record of debt ... nailing it to the cross. (Colossians 2)

    In the letters, the conversion by death to self is treated as a past-tense, one-time event that we have clear before-and-after states in. Our old selves were crucified "with Him." Our sins have been nailed to the cross of Christ - a past event. So my confusion now is that we cannot be crucified with Him multiple times - as He only died once for all. In fact the importance of this is one of the main ideas behind Hebrews:

    We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all ... Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins ... For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (Hebrews 10)

    So how can we be crucified with Christ "daily?"

    One idea is that Jesus in Luke 9 was speaking about carrying around our crucified self (meaning, living in our current fallen/sinful body daily), and following Him through the Spirit? Or perhaps this cross analogy was used for a totally separate topic from the other NT verses?
    to carry our cross and " crucify the flesh " ....is to become a disciple of Jesus in the gospel . It's the same principle as circumcision of the flesh , but it's about circumcision the spiritual darkness , or the sinful desires and thoughts of the heart , through keeping the gospel in faith .

    a person who's heart has much lust within , leads them to the sinful actions beckoned by lust within ....they need the gospel teachings concerning lust in the heart . Through faith it forces a removal because we believe the lords word .

    " you have heard it said long ago , eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth ...BUT I TELL YOU .....

    if you look closely it's about self denial , and following Jesus Christ who was constantly saying " hear my word , keep my sayings, follow my teachings " it ends up being a crucifixion of the nature of flesh , let a believer who struggles with list believe what Jesus said about the lust in our thoughts and hearts....and watch faith in his word light up the darkness until the heart is shaped after purity through faith in the word.

    his death is about our death according to the sentance of death, he was crucified because we are sinners. He's saying the same thing he said all along " repent and believe the gospel , follow me where I lead and be reborn"

    we can say we are a new creation in Christ , but does our life bear that out is the question , of Christ lives in us , our deeds will be as his ....if we have the spirit of Christ , we'll always be reminded of the gospel and his words ....because it is the putting to death of the deeds of the flesh , through reproving the heart of flesh man is lead by our heart whether into sin , or into righteousness and life .

    it rewuired a lot of loss of,our sinful lives to accept the gospel and follow the lord as were called to do . Sinners don't love the thought of following a gospel that will surely reprove our sinful deeds , because sinners love the flesh deeds, the things contrary to the spirit which is explained in the word . So it becomes spiritually like a crucifixion of our sinful selves to accept and follow his teachings of the spirit , the gospel of the kingdom.


    if we don't allow lust to be our master from within , we will never have motive to so it sexual sins ....if we don't allow greed to rule our hearts from within , we will not commit sins of greed ....if we do not allow hate, Unforgiveness , envy , jealousy ect to rule us from within and make home in our minds and hearts , we will not be wanting and willing to sin , whatever we keep in us whether it's the gospel , or the world ....we will obey and serve those things . We're crucifying our minds , and transforming how we think because we've been given the truth by Jesus Christ and we believe he knows better than we concerning salvation .


    notice Paul doesn't just say Jesus died , so you died ...he also says a lot about putting to death the deeds of the flesh through the spirit ....about being made free from sins dominion over us , through following the doctrine of the gospel, says a lot to the church in the same letters about not continuing on in the deeds of the flesh , ( sin) and thinking were saved . See Galatians and Ephesians 5 for a repeated warning of the inheritance were offered . There's more to it than the death and resurrection ofmchrist , it's where we begin at the cross ....coming into the new covenant of the gospel is about following the risen lord from our empty tombs and following the spirit of life

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    What does it mean to take up your cross "daily," if Christ was crucified "once for all?"

    "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. And [Jesus] said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it." (Luke 9:22-24)

    Does this mean we are symbolically crucified every day, or make the sacrifice to self repeatedly? That is the most common teaching from the passage, in my experience. But in reading, I've run into some problems:

    I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. (Galatians 2:20)
    We know that our old self was crucified with Him ... (Romans 6:6)
    Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:24)
    You, who were dead in your trespasses ... God made alive ... by canceling the record of debt ... nailing it to the cross. (Colossians 2)

    In the letters, the conversion by death to self is treated as a past-tense, one-time event that we have clear before-and-after states in. Our old selves were crucified "with Him." Our sins have been nailed to the cross of Christ - a past event. So my confusion now is that we cannot be crucified with Him multiple times - as He only died once for all. In fact the importance of this is one of the main ideas behind Hebrews:

    We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all ... Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins ... For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (Hebrews 10)

    So how can we be crucified with Christ "daily?"

    One idea is that Jesus in Luke 9 was speaking about carrying around our crucified self (meaning, living in our current fallen/sinful body daily), and following Him through the Spirit? Or perhaps this cross analogy was used for a totally separate topic from the other NT verses?
    to carry our cross and " crucify the flesh " ....is to become a disciple of Jesus in the gospel . It's the same principle as circumcision of the flesh , but it's about circumcision the spiritual darkness , or the sinful desires and thoughts of the heart , through keeping the gospel in faith .

    a person who's heart has much lust within , leads them to the sinful actions beckoned by lust within ....they need the gospel teachings concerning lust in the heart . Through faith it forces a removal because we believe the lords word .

    " you have heard it said long ago , eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth ...BUT I TELL YOU .....

    if you look closely it's about self denial , and following Jesus Christ who was constantly saying " hear my word , keep my sayings, follow my teachings " it ends up being a crucifixion of the nature of flesh , let a believer who struggles with list believe what Jesus said about the lust in our thoughts and hearts....and watch faith in his word light up the darkness until the heart is shaped after purity through faith in the word.

    his death is about our death according to the sentance of death, he was crucified because we are sinners. He's saying the same thing he said all along " repent and believe the gospel , follow me where I lead and be reborn"

    we can say we are a new creation in Christ , but does our life bear that out is the question , of Christ lives in us , our deeds will be as his ....if we have the spirit of Christ , we'll always be reminded of the gospel and his words ....because it is the putting to death of the deeds of the flesh , through reproving the heart of flesh man is lead by our heart whether into sin , or into righteousness and life .

    it rewuired a lot of loss of,our sinful lives to accept the gospel and follow the lord as were called to do . Sinners don't love the thought of following a gospel that will surely reprove our sinful deeds , because sinners love the flesh deeds, the things contrary to the spirit which is explained in the word . So it becomes spiritually like a crucifixion of our sinful selves to accept and follow his teachings of the spirit , the gospel of the kingdom.


    if we don't allow lust to be our master from within , we will never have motive to so it sexual sins ....if we don't allow greed to rule our hearts from within , we will not commit sins of greed ....if we do not allow hate, Unforgiveness , envy , jealousy ect to rule us from within and make home in our minds and hearts , we will not be wanting and willing to sin , whatever we keep in us whether it's the gospel , or the world ....we will obey and serve those things . We're crucifying our minds , and transforming how we think because we've been given the truth by Jesus Christ and we believe he knows better than we concerning salvation .


    notice Paul doesn't just say Jesus died , so you died ...he also says a lot about putting to death the deeds of the flesh through the spirit ....about being made free from sins dominion over us , through following the doctrine of the gospel, says a lot to the church in the same letters about not continuing on in the deeds of the flesh , ( sin) and thinking were saved . See Galatians and Ephesians 5 for a repeated warning of the inheritance were offered . There's more to it than the death and resurrection ofmchrist , it's where we begin at the cross ....coming into the new covenant of the gospel is about following the risen lord from our empty tombs and following the spirit of life

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