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Thread: Looking for a Church—can someone help?

  1. #1

    Looking for a Church—can someone help?

    Hello friends. I wasn't sure where to put this thread so I hope this is a good place.

    I have a question. I've always been one who believed the Ten Commandments were nailed to the cross (see Colossians 2:14). But after reading some books on the subject, especially Ten Commandments Twice Removed by Danny Shelton and Shelly Quinn, I've had a change of mind; the only reason being they back up their arguments with scripture. The Ten Commandments (God's Law) weren't nailed to the cross but the Law of Moses, the "ordinaces" mentioned in Colossians 2:14. If the Ten commandments are still in effect—which most Christians would readily agree they are—this also includes the command to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.

    This isn't intended as a thread for debating this issue—though I don't mind hearing other opinions. My real question is, I'm looking for a church that believes in recognizing the seventh-day Sabbath but in other respects is still fairly traditional. Are their any denominations like that? I'm not an Adventist and frankly I disagree with a lot of their teaching. I don't believe we're still obligated to follow dietary restrictions or recognize holy days or feasts, etc. found in the Law of Moses.

    I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, just looking for a church that believes as I do.

    Thanks.

  2. #2

    Re: Looking for a Church—can someone help?

    Quote Originally Posted by pdun459 View Post
    Hello friends. I wasn't sure where to put this thread so I hope this is a good place.

    I have a question. I've always been one who believed the Ten Commandments were nailed to the cross (see Colossians 2:14). But after reading some books on the subject, especially Ten Commandments Twice Removed by Danny Shelton and Shelly Quinn, I've had a change of mind; the only reason being they back up their arguments with scripture. The Ten Commandments (God's Law) weren't nailed to the cross but the Law of Moses, the "ordinaces" mentioned in Colossians 2:14. If the Ten commandments are still in effect—which most Christians would readily agree they are—this also includes the command to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.

    This isn't intended as a thread for debating this issue—though I don't mind hearing other opinions. My real question is, I'm looking for a church that believes in recognizing the seventh-day Sabbath but in other respects is still fairly traditional. Are their any denominations like that? I'm not an Adventist and frankly I disagree with a lot of their teaching. I don't believe we're still obligated to follow dietary restrictions or recognize holy days or feasts, etc. found in the Law of Moses.

    I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, just looking for a church that believes as I do.

    Thanks.
    I welcome you to the Christian community and hope you find a church that you can feel the presence of God in the workings.

    You are on a great subject; pertaining to the commandments of God and especially the sabbath commandment. On this chatroom, this is a subject of controversy and many you chat with will have varying opinions. That being said, I agree with you regarding the commandments. No, we are no longer bound by the Mosaic Law, as this was fulfilled in Christ. But we are still bound by the commandments; as Jesus gave clarity to the rich man that inquired of what he must do to be saved. Jesus told him to keep the commandments (Matthew 19:16-24). As well as being reinforced by other apostles.
    But the 10 commandments came with other more specific laws written in the old testament, that was intended for the children of Israel, to help safeguard against sin until the time of their redemption in Christ. Those that were bound by the Mosaic law were judged by the works according to the the letter of the law.

    Even as time went on, they began to move away from the laws; as written, and began to pervert the laws of God. By the time Jesus had come, they had adopted a good bit of traditions of their own. Even to the point that they could not discern between the Laws of Moses and their own traditions of their fathers.
    And in many cases, Jesus attempted to teach them; to bring them back to the law of God as God intended. In one instance, by letting them know that the law of the sabbath was made for man. And that man was not made for the sabbath. He explained that it was never intended for the sabbath to be a burden on man. He illustrated this when they tried to condemn him and the disciples by gathering corn in the cornfield on the sabbath day. He reminded them of what King David did when he was hungry and went into the temple to eat the shewbread with those that were with him. Which is not lawful to eat but for the priests. (Mark 2:23-28).

    To add a little more dialog, you will find that after the resurrection of Christ, there are a good bit of references in the new testament writings that suggest the 1st day of the week, termed “the Lords Day”, seems to have taken place of the sabbath day regarding a holy day or the sabbath day, at least by the early church and church leaders as a day dedicated to the Lord.
    Below are some references:

    Acts 20:7
    On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

    John 20:19-20
    So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you." And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

    1 Corinthians 16:2
    On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.

    Revelation 1:10
    I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet.

    I agree, this is a good topic for discussion.

  3. #3
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    Re: Looking for a Church—can someone help?

    Just read your post. I'm happy to hear you have a Biblical foundation for want to keep God's Sabbath. I to came to that conclusion 37 years ago. It also show you willingness to follow the Lord even when it is socially awkward. That is real faith! Much more than, "Blow you horn if you love Jesus" You and many other know that Jesus said, "If you love me keep my commandments." (Joh.14:15)

    I've been an Adventist for 37 years as well. I'm not sure why you think we believe in keeping the Feast days, and Holy days under the Mosaic Law, it is simply something we do not teach. For it was this law that was nail to the cross and not the ten commandments that many are confused on. I strongly suggest, you contact, "It is Written", which is an Adventist ministry that offers online series of Bible studies, covering many subjects. This you can do in the privacy of your home, no pressure, you can even ask questions and get answers. Or you can contact an Adventist church in your area and request going through the study series with an individual.

    You need to invest more time in understanding what we teach, and you will better understand it is entirely Biblical.

    Blessing!

  4. #4

    Re: Looking for a Church—can someone help?

    Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting. I believe that Jesus fulfilled the law and therefore we are now to follow His command of the royal law of love. The Law is good if it is used right - for sinners to recognize their need for a Saviour since it is impossible to fulfill. I hear what you are saying though. It's important to work out what you believe. I can't recommend a church off hand per se. God bless you!

  5. #5
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    Re: Looking for a Church—can someone help?

    Quote Originally Posted by pdun459 View Post
    Hello friends. I wasn't sure where to put this thread so I hope this is a good place.

    I have a question. I've always been one who believed the Ten Commandments were nailed to the cross (see Colossians 2:14). But after reading some books on the subject, especially Ten Commandments Twice Removed by Danny Shelton and Shelly Quinn, I've had a change of mind; the only reason being they back up their arguments with scripture. The Ten Commandments (God's Law) weren't nailed to the cross but the Law of Moses, the "ordinaces" mentioned in Colossians 2:14. If the Ten commandments are still in effect—which most Christians would readily agree they are—this also includes the command to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.

    This isn't intended as a thread for debating this issue—though I don't mind hearing other opinions. My real question is, I'm looking for a church that believes in recognizing the seventh-day Sabbath but in other respects is still fairly traditional. Are their any denominations like that? I'm not an Adventist and frankly I disagree with a lot of their teaching. I don't believe we're still obligated to follow dietary restrictions or recognize holy days or feasts, etc. found in the Law of Moses.

    I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, just looking for a church that believes as I do.

    Thanks.
    You may fair well in a Messianic Jewish congregation.

  6. #6
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    Re: Looking for a Church—can someone help?

    Quote Originally Posted by pdun459 View Post
    Hello friends. I wasn't sure where to put this thread so I hope this is a good place.

    I have a question. I've always been one who believed the Ten Commandments were nailed to the cross (see Colossians 2:14). But after reading some books on the subject, especially Ten Commandments Twice Removed by Danny Shelton and Shelly Quinn, I've had a change of mind; the only reason being they back up their arguments with scripture. The Ten Commandments (God's Law) weren't nailed to the cross but the Law of Moses, the "ordinaces" mentioned in Colossians 2:14. If the Ten commandments are still in effect—which most Christians would readily agree they are—this also includes the command to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.

    This isn't intended as a thread for debating this issue—though I don't mind hearing other opinions. My real question is, I'm looking for a church that believes in recognizing the seventh-day Sabbath but in other respects is still fairly traditional. Are their any denominations like that? I'm not an Adventist and frankly I disagree with a lot of their teaching. I don't believe we're still obligated to follow dietary restrictions or recognize holy days or feasts, etc. found in the Law of Moses.

    I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, just looking for a church that believes as I do.

    Thanks.
    When you are willing to discuss/debate this, let me know? It's a good question. I do believe as you originally did, that the 1st Covenant was nailed to the tree. We are now under a completely New Covenant, and yet one that retains the morality and the spirituality of the 1st one. There is, in my view, no obligation to keep feasts, the Sabbath Day, nor any of the multitude of rules included in the Law. Redemption is finished. Why return to animal sacrifices, a priesthood to do this for us, and a temple at which it has to take place? It's done--finished!

    I do believe, however, in the Law of Christ. It is a law of freedom because it does not require 613 laws, binding us to the rigorous task of performing a variety of rituals associated with keeping us in covenant with God. These things are no longer necessary--all we have to do to stay in covenant with God today is to follow the example of His Son, remain in his morality, and live in his spirituality.

  7. #7

    Re: Looking for a Church—can someone help?

    I'd like to discuss this further but my time is limited so I'll post as time allows.

    TMarcum:

    Acts 20:7
    On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

    John 20:19-20
    So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you." And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

    1 Corinthians 16:2
    On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.


    Thank you for these scriptures. I understand how they've been used to justify the first day of the week as the new "Lord's Day"; but when you examine them closely, where does it actually say that the first day of the week has replaced the Saturday Sabbath?

    Revelation 1:10
    I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet.


    This is the one and only reference to "Lord's Day" in the New Testament and it gives no clue whatsoever as to what day it is. The Old Testament is replete with references to the Sabbath as the Lord's holy day. I'm sorry I don't have them handy right now but maybe I can post some this weekend if someone doesn't beat me to it.

    Dennis Timm:

    Thank you for your response. I will do as you suggest. I have to admit that when it gets right down to it I don't have a thorough knowledge of Adventism.

  8. #8
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    Re: Looking for a Church—can someone help?

    To all readers, greetings.*

    RandyK, expresses that he believes, that the first covenant (Mosaic) came to and end at the cross, therefore christians are no longer obligated to honor the many rituals, feasts and the Sabbath day. Instead, "all we have to do is stay in covenant with God today is to follow the example of His Son, remain in his morality, and live in his spirituality."

    Before I comment on the above, please understand that I consider my statements/ insights/thoughts very carefully for I know that they will either be a correct or a misleading understanding on God's truth as revealed in His word. I certainly do not wish to misleading anyone in regard to knowing the truth about our God, and His love for His creation. Thus, I use texts to support my thoughts, They are the yardstick by which to determine truth. I do not hide my true name or where I live, because I consider it and honor to stand for God. what I write, I believe it is* based on the proper parting of the Word of God.* **

    I know many including myself, believe that the Mosaic Law ended at the cross. But many christians are not aware that this was not the first covenant. Actually the first covenant was the "Ten Commandments" and God* communicated these to Adam and Eve for the benefit of all of mankind at creation and passed down from generation to generation by way of mouth until the time that God selected the decendants of Abraham to become His trustee's of the gospel commission, providing they would do all that He ask them to do. It was after God had brought the Israelites out of 400 years of Egyptian slavery, during which time each succeding generation drifted further and further from the knowledge of God. So, at Mount Sinai He revealed Himself to then in awesome power, and there wrote our the "Ten Commandments" on tablets of stone, to bring them up to speed, on His Holyness. *

    While Moses was with God for forty days on Mt. Sinai God also directed Moses to write out the Mosaic Law in a book and read it before the people and then told him to place it in the side of the Ark. (Exodus 24:4&7; Deu.31:26) However, the "Ten Commandments were placed inside of the Ark, and covered by the Mercy Seat, (Exodus 25:16,21;40:20; Deu.10:2,5)

    With these facts clearly understood, we are better informed to properly determine which covenant was nailed to the cross and why.

    Christ atoning death at the cross provided forgiveness for all sin. This act “Wiped out the handwriting of requirements [Mosaic Law]…And He [Christ] has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross (Col. 2:14)

    So Randyk is correct in stating the Mosaic Law was done away with. Many Christians are relieved to know this because they reason, it also did away with the Sabbath issue. Not so! The “Sabbaths” mentioned in this law are “Ceremonial Sabbaths” and not the “Seventh Day Sabbath.” There were seven annually, and they fell on a certain dates, not the seventh day of the weekly cycle. These Sabbaths were the first and last days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Day of Pentecost, the Feast ofTrumpets, the Day of Atonement, and the first and last day of the Feast of Tabernacles. While the weekly Sabbath was ordained at the close of Creation week for all mankind, the Ceremonial Sabbaths were part of the Mosaic Law instituted at Mt. Sinai. (Lev. 23)

    I also agree with RandyK, "all we have to do is stay in covenant with God today is to follow the example of His Son, remain in his morality, and live in his spirituality." With these thoughts in mind let us now consider Christ words and action in regard to the His first covenant [Ten Commandments] given to man at creation and latter written in stone by His own finger, and kept Inside the Ark, beneath the Mercy Seat.

    First and foremost it was the second person of the Godhead, whom we call Jesus, who spoke and wrote them out in stone. (Exodus 31:18; 32:16)

    “By the law is the knowledge of sin,” (Romans 3:20) “I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have know covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” (Romans 7:7). God’s law is like a mirror (James 1:23-25) It points out our wrongdoing. We need not speculate as to what sin is or is not, God has made it very clear, by giving us His Ten Commandments.

    “So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.” (James 2:12) The Ten Commandment law is the standard by which God examines people in the Heavenly judgment. It is a life or death matter. Which is why God Himself wrote them in stone, and gave them to us. We are without excuse for knowing this.

    Many Christians believe that the commandments were nailed to the cross, and latter nine were reimposed, except for the fourth, which is the Sabbath commandment, (have you ever noticed that this command is written out it the greatest detail) But please carefully note the wording in this texts, “Do not think I came to destroy the Law…I did not come to destroy but to fulfill [To keep]…Till heaven and earth pass way, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” (Matt. 5:17,18) Well earth is still here, along with you and me. Therefore, the (Ten) Commandments are still bidding on all of mankind as the Psalmist states, “All His commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever.” (Psalm 111:7,8)

    Think this through, If the Commandments were not made know to Adam and Eve, they would not have been guilty of disobeying God, and falling into sin. [Remember where there is no Law there is no sin, (Romans 4:15)] Therefore, common senses leaves us to believe they existed from Creation.

    If the Ten Commandments could have been done away with, than Jesus would not have had to die. But instead, because they are eternal, and define what sin and righteous living are, they could not be done away with. His death was required to satisfy the law that you and I cannot fulfill, Therefore, because God loves us Jesus agreed to fulfill the law for all of mankind.

    If the Commandments were done away, as some reason,then why do we need grace?

    According to the Bible, “For sin [Breaking God’s Law] shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law , but under grace. What then? Shall we sin [Break the Law] because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! (Romans 6:14,15) “Do we make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.” (Romans 3;31) Grace is like the governor’s pardon to a prisoner. It forgives him, but it does not give him freedom to break one single law on the books. The forgiven person , living under grace, is under double obligation to keep the law. A person who refuses to keep God’s law, saying that he is living under grace, is mistaken . He is living under disgrace.

    The takeaway in all of this is: The Mosaic Law was nailed to the cross, as it was pointing to Christ Death, and at Christ death it ended. But it had no effect on the eternal covenant, [Ten Commandments] written by God, and placed within the Ark under the Mercy Seat. Because of God’s mercy, He fulfilled the law for us, in hopes that as we understand His commandments, we see our sinful nature and realize that only as we allow the Holy Spirit to work in us can we be set free of the sin that holds us captive.

    By doing this we are following Jesus example, and allowing the Holy Spirit to do a work in us we can’t do ourselves. And in times when we fail, which is often, the blood of Christ will cover us through His grace when we confess our sins, yet we must press on in overcoming our sinful natures, that we may grow in Christ Jesus.

  9. #9
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    Re: Looking for a Church—can someone help?

    pDun459:

    Should you decide to get involved in an Adventist Bible study. Please feel free to contact me with any questions you may have. Yes, this will be scary, entering into new territory always is. Remember this, "Truths greatest obstacle is a closed mind." Therefore, pray for an opened mind and understanding of God's word. You will be blessed.

  10. #10

    Re: Looking for a Church—can someone help?

    Quote Originally Posted by pdun459 View Post
    I'd like to discuss this further but my time is limited so I'll post as time allows.

    TMarcum:

    Acts 20:7
    On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

    John 20:19-20
    So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you." And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

    1 Corinthians 16:2
    On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.


    Thank you for these scriptures. I understand how they've been used to justify the first day of the week as the new "Lord's Day"; but when you examine them closely, where does it actually say that the first day of the week has replaced the Saturday Sabbath?

    Revelation 1:10
    I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet.


    This is the one and only reference to "Lord's Day" in the New Testament and it gives no clue whatsoever as to what day it is. The Old Testament is replete with references to the Sabbath as the Lord's holy day. I'm sorry I don't have them handy right now but maybe I can post some this weekend if someone doesn't beat me to it.
    You're looking for concrete evidence regarding whether the Sabbath (being the 7th day) was replace by the early church to the Lords Day (being the 1st day of the week). I do not believe you will find any bible references to support this as an affirmation. Only what is written by the Apostles seen to support the gatherings, exhortations, and worship was done on the Lords day or the 1st day of the week.

    I believe there is a good bit of commentary and church manuscript of the early church history to support this was new trend and church movement as early as the 1st century. But, I do not have any of these documents.

    My thought are, how do we really know what day that God rested from all his works. I don't know of any weekly calendars dating back 6,000 years ago. Who really know what day of the week is the Sabbath? It may be on a Wednesday.

  11. #11

    Re: Looking for a Church—can someone help?

    Oftentimes Justin Martyr's First Apology (150 A.D.) is quoted, which states:

    "And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things."

    However, William H. Shea has produced a study which claims to prove this part was a later interpolation. I haven't examined it closely but for now this remains an open question for me.

    https://www.andrews.edu/library/car/...01/2002_02.pdf (Direct link)

    The verses listed earlier by TMarcum do show that certain Church activities were conducted on the first day of the week, but Christ never sanctioned the first day as holy nor do we have any written record that He changed the Sabbath to Sunday; this was done by the Catholic Church. Canon 29 of the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364) states:

    "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s day (i.e. Sunday) they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ."

    So it's clear that the Catholic Church recognized many Christians were still honoring the Saturday Sabbath at that time.

    The only day we have any record of which God calls holy is the seventh day. It belongs to Him, thus it is the "Lord's day":

    "If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor speaking your own words, then you shall delight yourself in the Lord; and I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the Lord has spoken."—Isaiah 58:13-14.

    "Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD."—Exodus 31:15.

    There are many other similar passages. The meaning is clear, the seventh day is the Lord's own holy day. Since this is so evident, it seems that if Christ's intention was the creation of a new holy day He would have made this very clear.

    Cheers.

  12. #12

    Re: Looking for a Church—can someone help?

    Quote Originally Posted by pdun459 View Post
    Oftentimes Justin Martyr's First Apology (150 A.D.) is quoted, which states:

    "And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things."

    However, William H. Shea has produced a study which claims to prove this part was a later interpolation. I haven't examined it closely but for now this remains an open question for me.

    https://www.andrews.edu/library/car/...01/2002_02.pdf (Direct link)

    The verses listed earlier by TMarcum do show that certain Church activities were conducted on the first day of the week, but Christ never sanctioned the first day as holy nor do we have any written record that He changed the Sabbath to Sunday; this was done by the Catholic Church. Canon 29 of the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364) states:

    "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s day (i.e. Sunday) they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ."

    So it's clear that the Catholic Church recognized many Christians were still honoring the Saturday Sabbath at that time.

    The only day we have any record of which God calls holy is the seventh day. It belongs to Him, thus it is the "Lord's day":

    "If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor speaking your own words, then you shall delight yourself in the Lord; and I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the Lord has spoken."—Isaiah 58:13-14.

    "Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD."—Exodus 31:15.

    There are many other similar passages. The meaning is clear, the seventh day is the Lord's own holy day. Since this is so evident, it seems that if Christ's intention was the creation of a new holy day He would have made this very clear.

    Cheers.
    I agree with your points.

    My only question I have for you now is: How do you know what day is the sabbath day? If your going to put so much weight on ensuring you observe the sabbath day, on the day which is the last day, then how can you be so sure that Saturday is that day? Are you certain it is Saturday? Do you know for sure that Saturday was the day that God rested from his works during creation? Maybe it was Sunday? Maybe it was Monday?

    Seems as though you have already discounted and ruled out Sunday.

  13. #13

    Re: Looking for a Church—can someone help?

    For millennia the Jews have observed Saturday (Hebrew Shabbat) as the Sabbath. It seems that if they had it wrong Jesus would have said, "Oh, by the way, the Sabbath isn't Saturday but Sunday (or whatever day)."

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