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Thread: Hebrews 6:4-6

  1. #61
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    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Who are a saved person and from what were you saved?

    Because of sin we all became part of death and it is from this death that we are saved. This death is an eternal death, so to be saved from it,it also must be eternal. This is what Jesus gives us when we are saved, namely eternal life. If it is not eternal then it is no salvation from death. So in order to be saved you need to have eternal life or else you are not saved at all. This is the first point, salvation is for eternity.

    Secondly in order to be saved you need to believe in Jesus and have faith in His work on the cross. You must believe that He is the Son of God who gave Himself so all who would believe in Him, will be saved. There is no other Saviour that saves us but Him. Jesus saves, not our relationship with Him or anything else, only Him. The only way given to be part of Him is through faith. Faith being the assurance of things hope for as if they are already received. With other words to have faith in Christ is to know that you are saved and has eternal life now and that all the promises we have in Him is as if we already had received it. If you doubt any of His promises or His works, then you have a faith problem which can come to fruition that you in fact do not believe and because of it are not saved. The fact that you do have doubts does not necessarily means you have no faith, but it could be. This is where perseverance and endurance comes into play. We must persevere and endure in our faith and this we can only do with the help of the Holy Spirit.

    Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
    Rom 8:26 In the same way the Spirit also comes to help us, weak as we are.

    So it is with the power of the Spirit that we endure and because of the promises of God that we persevere.

    Rom 8:28 We know that in all things God works for good with those who love him, those whom he has called according to his purpose.
    Rom 8:38 For I am certain that nothing can separate us from his love: neither death nor life, neither angels nor other heavenly rulers or powers, neither the present nor the future,
    Rom 8:39 neither the world above nor the world below---there is nothing in all creation that will ever be able to separate us from the love of God which is ours through Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Now if one would stop to believe and cease to have faith in Christ, it can only be because one did not believe in Him to start with. The faith one had was not the faith given to man by the Lord, but one's own faith, which is fallible. The faith given for salvation cannot fail as the promises and assurance given by God to us cannot fail. So the exhortations to believers to persevere, overcome and endure is to test our faith, if it is only in Christ and nothing else. This is the only faith that can save, the faith in Christ. If a man would backslide or fall away it is only proof of his lack of faith and belief and not in the promises of God, for the promises were only made to believers. If one would endure it is only because of the goodness of God and the power of His Spirit, for man has nothing to boast. The testing of one's faith are not unnecessary. It is also not something to be afraid of, but to be welcomed for it help us to be stronger in our faith. Tested faith is true faith.
    That to be saved means eternal life, is not in contention. But it is, however, a "promise" that will be redeemed at the resurrection/rapture of the saints. What you have failed to grasp is that this promise is only valid if the believer remains in Christ at the time of death or rapture. There is a difference between ours and God's role in the equation. You are confusing God's immutability to keep his promise of eternal life with man's mutability to keep his part by remaining until the end.

    Yes, we are saved by faith but it is also evident that some do lose faith later on and therefore fail to endure to the end. When this happens to a believer, they lose their salvation and have no one to blame, but themselves. The view that "if one ceases to have faith in Christ, it is because they never believed in Him to start with" is not supported by scripture.

  2. #62
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    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr King View Post
    I am very sorry! I misunderstood what you wrote. Forgive me for that. God bless you!
    It's okay, brother. Nothing to forgive.

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    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    That to be saved means eternal life, is not in contention. But it is, however, a "promise" that will be redeemed at the resurrection/rapture of the saints. What you have failed to grasp is that this promise is only valid if the believer remains in Christ at the time of death or rapture. There is a difference between ours and God's role in the equation. You are confusing God's immutability to keep his promise of eternal life with man's mutability to keep his part by remaining until the end.

    Yes, we are saved by faith but it is also evident that some do lose faith later on and therefore fail to endure to the end. When this happens to a believer, they lose their salvation and have no one to blame, but themselves. The view that "if one ceases to have faith in Christ, it is because they never believed in Him to start with" is not supported by scripture.
    No, Scripture is clear.

    Joh 6:47 I am telling you the truth: he who believes has eternal life.

    It does not say will or may have it, but has it already. Also it is not life, but eternal life. Those that believes has it, so if you do not have it, you did not believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    That to be saved means eternal life, is not in contention. But it is, however, a "promise" that will be redeemed at the resurrection/rapture of the saints. What you have failed to grasp is that this promise is only valid if the believer remains in Christ at the time of death or rapture. There is a difference between ours and God's role in the equation. You are confusing God's immutability to keep his promise of eternal life with man's mutability to keep his part by remaining until the end.

    Yes, we are saved by faith but it is also evident that some do lose faith later on and therefore fail to endure to the end. When this happens to a believer, they lose their salvation and have no one to blame, but themselves. The view that "if one ceases to have faith in Christ, it is because they never believed in Him to start with" is not supported by scripture.
    No, Scripture is clear.

    Joh 6:47 I am telling you the truth: he who believes has eternal life.

    It does not say will or may have it, but has it already. Also it is not life, but eternal life. Those that believes has it, so if you do not have it, you did not believe.

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    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Research reductio ad absurdum. Christ cannot be put to open shame all over again. He won't be and that's the writers point. So one of two things are true.

    1. If one can lose their salvation, they can't get it again - which conflicts with scripture. or
    2. You can't lose it, the question is, was it ever attained ? - which does not conflict with scripture.

  5. #65
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    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    No, Scripture is clear.

    Joh 6:47 I am telling you the truth: he who believes has eternal life. It does not say will or may have it, but has it already. Also it is not life, but eternal life. Those that believes has it, so if you do not have it, you did not believe
    The scripture is clear: "he that endures/overcomes/perseveres to the END shall be saved".

    Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    After coming to faith and being saved, we must then bear our own crosses and struggles, in contrast to the popular idea of life as a Christian meant to be comfortable and perhaps easy. But Jesus' words to us speak most of all about endurance -- and endurance to the end, through all things, through the struggles that'll be a part of in our lives. It's real. It is the truth. Many are deluded into believing that being saved a licence to live life as they please in the false belief that they can't lose their salvation.

    If a saved believer can't lose faith, backslide or go back to the world because of affliction, persecution, sickness or a whole lot of challenges out there, Jesus would not have deemed it necessary to give these warnings. I'm not out to score points, just pointing out the fact that we must remain in Christ to the end of mortal life to receive our eternal inheritance.

    Believe whatever makes you happy, I'd rather believe the Bible 100%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    No, Scripture is clear.

    Joh 6:47 I am telling you the truth: he who believes has eternal life. It does not say will or may have it, but has it already. Also it is not life, but eternal life. Those that believes has it, so if you do not have it, you did not believe
    The scripture is clear: "he that endures/overcomes/perseveres to the END shall be saved".

    Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    After coming to faith and being saved, we must then bear our own crosses and struggles, in contrast to the popular idea of life as a Christian meant to be comfortable and perhaps easy. But Jesus' words to us speak most of all about endurance -- and endurance to the end, through all things, through the struggles that'll be a part of in our lives. It's real. It is the truth. Many are deluded into believing that being saved a licence to live life as they please in the false belief that they can't lose their salvation.

    If a saved believer can't lose faith, backslide or go back to the world because of affliction, persecution, sickness or a whole lot of challenges out there, Jesus would not have deemed it necessary to give these warnings. I'm not out to score points, just pointing out the fact that we must remain in Christ to the end of mortal life to receive our eternal inheritance.

    Believe whatever makes you happy, I'd rather believe the Bible 100%.

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    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The scripture is clear: "he that endures/overcomes/perseveres to the END shall be saved".

    Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    After coming to faith and being saved, we must then bear our own crosses and struggles, in contrast to the popular idea of life as a Christian meant to be comfortable and perhaps easy. But Jesus' words to us speak most of all about endurance -- and endurance to the end, through all things, through the struggles that'll be a part of in our lives. It's real. It is the truth. Many are deluded into believing that being saved a licence to live life as they please in the false belief that they can't lose their salvation.

    If a saved believer can't lose faith, backslide or go back to the world because of affliction, persecution, sickness or a whole lot of challenges out there, Jesus would not have deemed it necessary to give these warnings. I'm not out to score points, just pointing out the fact that we must remain in Christ to the end of mortal life to receive our eternal inheritance.

    Believe whatever makes you happy, I'd rather believe the Bible 100%.
    If your endurance is up to you, you will fail. If your endurance is because of your faith in God and of Him that will not loose you, then it will endure because of your faith being sure of the things hope for.

    Heb 11:1 To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the things we cannot see.

    Are you sure or not? If you are then you have faith and believe, if not then you do not have faith and without faith you cannot please God and will fail.

    I believe the Bible 100%.

    Saying OSAS gives you a license to live as you please is a straw man and your making, not reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The scripture is clear: "he that endures/overcomes/perseveres to the END shall be saved".

    Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    After coming to faith and being saved, we must then bear our own crosses and struggles, in contrast to the popular idea of life as a Christian meant to be comfortable and perhaps easy. But Jesus' words to us speak most of all about endurance -- and endurance to the end, through all things, through the struggles that'll be a part of in our lives. It's real. It is the truth. Many are deluded into believing that being saved a licence to live life as they please in the false belief that they can't lose their salvation.

    If a saved believer can't lose faith, backslide or go back to the world because of affliction, persecution, sickness or a whole lot of challenges out there, Jesus would not have deemed it necessary to give these warnings. I'm not out to score points, just pointing out the fact that we must remain in Christ to the end of mortal life to receive our eternal inheritance.

    Believe whatever makes you happy, I'd rather believe the Bible 100%.
    If your endurance is up to you, you will fail. If your endurance is because of your faith in God and of Him that will not loose you, then it will endure because of your faith being sure of the things hope for.

    Heb 11:1 To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the things we cannot see.

    Are you sure or not? If you are then you have faith and believe, if not then you do not have faith and without faith you cannot please God and will fail.

    I believe the Bible 100%.

    Saying OSAS gives you a license to live as you please is a straw man and your making, not reality.

  7. #67
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    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    If your endurance is up to you, you will fail. If your endurance is because of your faith in God and of Him that will not loose you, then it will endure because of your faith being sure of the things hope for.

    Heb 11:1 To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the things we cannot see.

    Are you sure or not? If you are then you have faith and believe, if not then you do not have faith and without faith you cannot please God and will fail.

    I believe the Bible 100%.

    Saying OSAS gives you a license to live as you please is a straw man and your making, not reality.
    Believe whatever makes happy then? The truth will be revealed in due course.

  8. Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Originally Posted by Trivalee: According to you, the writer (in my view, it is Paul: vide chapters 10:34 & 13:23) "did not state the individuals were indwelt by the Holy Spirit". But this is not true. Verse 4 says "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,. If the HEAVENLY GIFT and partaking of the HOLY GHOST isn't the receipt of the Paraclete indwelling a believer, I don't know what it is! Many believers, unfortunately, have been falsely taught and are hung up on the once-saved-ever-saved, doctrine. IOW, they believe that being saved is a get-out-of-jail-free-card that guarantees them salvation irrespective of how they live after being saved, whether they carry their cross and follow or Christ or not. Nothing is more misleading and injurious to the body of Christ than this errant school of thought. If once saved, ever saved is true, then the injunction to abide in Christ till the end, [end denoting end of mortal life] has to be pointless and irrelevant, isn't it?
    Well I have not been able to post and lost posting privaliges since another thread of mine was accidently deleted. So hopefully they are fixing these problems now. So this is a test post in which I will say Amen! It is amazing how many people ignore these scriptures to try and make them say things they do not say. I also believe these scriptures are talking about those who "FALL AWAY" or "DEPART THE FAITH" to return back to a life of known "UNREPENTANT SIN". These scripture are not in reference to those who sin and repent and return to God. We must remember the parables of the "LOST SHEEP" and the "PRODIGAL SON" here as well. What is impossible with men is possible with God.

    God bless the OP as JESUS called you and you heard his Voice (the Word) many are called but few are chosen.

    Blessings.

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    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr King View Post
    [FONT="]Hebrews 6:4-6
    For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put him to open shame. ([/FONT]
    Hebrews 6:46)

    I'm scared and fearful and worried that I am guilty of this. I repented and believed and so forth but fell away back into sin again but then again repented this morning and no longer decided to put it off until tomorrow but now, but scared that I have crucified Jesus again but then again and again and again. fear that I'm destroyed. please help! When I came to repent and become hateful toward sin I wept bitterly in tears being face to face with Jesus and self and my sins and pleaded for forgiveness and repentance. While I wept a verse came to mind; Jesus said, Take heart son, your sins are forgiven. I kept on weeping. But I don't want to be self-deceived and like I said please help...I'm pleading with Jesus again and again.
    A. The prior state of those under discussion is that they had:

    1. Been enlightened.
    2. Had tasted the heavenly gift. (The word for tasted is γευσαμένους (geusamenous) which means to experience. This is the same word that is used in 2:9 where it speaks of Jesus having "tasted" death for everyone. This is not a mere limited sampeling, this is an embracing of the full experience.
    3. Been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. These had received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who serves as the Christian's seal of divine ownership.
    4. Tasted the good word of God. Again, the same word as in verse 4, γευσαμένους.

    B. Present state - They have "fallen away." From what then had they fallen?

    1. An enlightened state.
    2. The experience of the heavenly gift.
    3. The partaking or sharing of the Holy Spirit.
    4. The good word of God.
    5. They had crucified Christ all over again. Like those of 10:26-31, these had "trampled under-foot the Son of God and regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS sanctified" (past tense). In other words, these had come to regard the blood that had once sanctified them as nothing more than the proverbial hog slaughtered on the altar.

    C. The impossible dilemma - It is now impossible to renew them again to repentance. Why? Because they have fallen away from the very thing that brought them to repentance in the first place which was the word of God. It is now impossible to restore them to repentance. One cannot be RE-newed AGAIN to a state they have never occupied. Thus, having once been saved and then having fallen away, they cannot be brought back because they will no longer repent. This is of course representing the extreme case.
    D. Their fate.
    Like the ground that yields thistles and thorns, they are cursed and they end up being burned. Just like those of 10:26-31, whose fate is to fall into the hands of a vengeful God who says, "I will repay." The parabolic illustration come out of Matthew 13:20-21, Mark 4:16-17, and Luke8:13. They had become worthless to the purposes of God and God discarded them.

    1. The writer is not saying that these claimed to have tasted but presents a simple statement of fact - "They had tasted. "Having once shared in the fellowship of Christ these had later abandoned Christ and returned to the law. These had previously left the law in response to the gospel. Now, they are rejecting the cross and going back to the law. This is the foundation they were "laying again."
    2. This is not a question. There is no "if" in the Greek. It simply says, παραπεσόντας (parapesontas) - literally "having fallen away". This is a statement of fact based on actual cases, not a what if scenario. This is an aorist, passive, accusative verb. They had fallen away at some time in the past and that condition continues. They are still fallen away. This is the force of the aorist accusative case. At some point in the past they had fallen away - punctiliar action irrespecrtive of the amount of time involved, and they remain fallen away. Their condition has not changed.
    3. Under the law, sin was not forgiven based on those sacrifices, but based of what those sacrifices represented - the cross. Leviticus chapters 4 and 5 show us that sin was indeed forgiven under the law but, it was not by the law. Even David understood this. "How blessed is the man whose transgression is forgiven, whose sins are covered...to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity," Psalms 32:1-2. He also knew those sacrifices were not the avenue through which forgiveness came. "Thou dost not delight in sacrifice or I would bring it." Psalms 51:1-2.
    4. The inability to renew again is not linked to a supposition of "IF" they were to fall away. The impossibility is linked to the fact that after having been saved they had rejected the cross, not the old sacrifices, and in so doing had shamed Christ openly and defiantly.
    5. The writer does not say they could not be saved again. He says that cannot be brought back to repentance again. This certainly renders them unable to remain saved since there is no longer repentance. These had once been in a saved relationship. Now that relationship has been severed; not by Christ but by them.
    6. He is not comparing the crucifying of Christ again to the repetitious offering of O.T. sacrifice. Those who had rejected and fallen away were considering Christ worthy of the crucifixion. They were rejecting him and his sacrifice. Like those of 10:29, they were considering the blood of Christ "BYWHICH THEY HAD BEEN SANCTIFIED" an unclean thing and had insulted the Spirit of grace.
    7. The writer's point is that these had been sanctified - made holy - A state given only to the saved, something that all of the sacrifices of the O.T combined could never do. In verse 29, he even draws a contrast between the one's of whom he is speaking and those who died under the law for rejecting Moses. They rejected the blood after having been cleansed by it and are now worthy of greater punishment than those who were under the Law. Verse 30 shows their fate. The Hebrew writer describes both the prior and latter states of those who had fallen away.

  10. #70
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    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdAngel View Post
    Well I have not been able to post and lost posting privaliges since another thread of mine was accidently deleted. So hopefully they are fixing these problems now. So this is a test post in which I will say Amen! It is amazing how many people ignore these scriptures to try and make them say things they do not say. I also believe these scriptures are talking about those who "FALL AWAY" or "DEPART THE FAITH" to return back to a life of known "UNREPENTANT SIN". These scripture are not in reference to those who sin and repent and return to God. We must remember the parables of the "LOST SHEEP" and the "PRODIGAL SON" here as well. What is impossible with men is possible with God.

    God bless the OP as JESUS called you and you heard his Voice (the Word) many are called but few are chosen.

    Blessings.
    Thank you for your wonderful comments. Remain blessed.

  11. #71

    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Hebrews 6:4-5 KJV
    For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    Saints may dwell in the principles (elementary teachings) of the doctrine of Christ or go into perfection if God permits. To attain perfection is, of course, better than to dwell in those principles of which one is repentance from sin. In other words, there are better things in perfection than in grace by which we able to repent and obtain salvation from sins.

    In perfection, we:
    • become enlightened with life
    • taste the heavenly gift who is the Christ (Anointing)
    • partake in the Holy Ghost who teaches all things
    • taste the good word of God by the gift of faith
    • taste the powers (power, might and counsel of God) in the world.
    • receive judgment of life and are able to judge others in the world with life


    Prior to perfection, the grace of God is sufficiently given to believers so that they are able to repent from sins and weaknesses as many times as they want. Salvation (by grace) is the place for repentance.

    Paul had sufficient grace to be delivered from weakness in the flesh. But, he chose a better thing (glory) than grace. He preferred to obtain glory (be enlightened) even while still having his weakness so that the power of Christ may fall on him at perfection. Paul was persuaded of that better thing (glory), even as Hebrews 6:9 KJV
    declares: "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." God permitted Paul to enter into perfection.

    In perfection, there is no provision for repentance but liberty from any form of bondage/imprisonment. it is Therefore, it is impossible for a saint to repent from sin because that will be putting the Son of God to open shame. But, the saint can be set at liberty from any kind of bondage by the hope of glory and can be judged with same unto eternal life.

    Above is the gist of Hebrews 6: 1-10.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

  12. #72
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    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    Hebrews 6:4-5 KJV


    Saints may dwell in the principles (elementary teachings) of the doctrine of Christ or go into perfection if God permits. To attain perfection is, of course, better than to dwell in those principles of which one is repentance from sin. In other words, there are better things in perfection than in grace by which we able to repent and obtain salvation from sins.

    In perfection, we:
    • become enlightened with life
    • taste the heavenly gift who is the Christ (Anointing)
    • partake in the Holy Ghost who teaches all things
    • taste the good word of God by the gift of faith
    • taste the powers (power, might and counsel of God) in the world.
    • receive judgment of life and are able to judge others in the world with life


    Prior to perfection, the grace of God is sufficiently given to believers so that they are able to repent from sins and weaknesses as many times as they want. Salvation (by grace) is the place for repentance.

    Paul had sufficient grace to be delivered from weakness in the flesh. But, he chose a better thing (glory) than grace. He preferred to obtain glory (be enlightened) even while still having his weakness so that the power of Christ may fall on him at perfection. Paul was persuaded of that better thing (glory), even as Hebrews 6:9 KJV
    declares: "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." God permitted Paul to enter into perfection.

    In perfection, there is no provision for repentance but liberty from any form of bondage/imprisonment. it is Therefore, it is impossible for a saint to repent from sin because that will be putting the Son of God to open shame. But, the saint can be set at liberty from any kind of bondage by the hope of glory and can be judged with same unto eternal life.

    Above is the gist of Hebrews 6: 1-10.
    I have never heard one recognized theologian , commentary, or confession of faith agree with your interpretation of Hebrews 6. You do realize that Romans chapter 7 was written by Paul, right ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    Hebrews 6:4-5 KJV


    Saints may dwell in the principles (elementary teachings) of the doctrine of Christ or go into perfection if God permits. To attain perfection is, of course, better than to dwell in those principles of which one is repentance from sin. In other words, there are better things in perfection than in grace by which we able to repent and obtain salvation from sins.

    In perfection, we:
    • become enlightened with life
    • taste the heavenly gift who is the Christ (Anointing)
    • partake in the Holy Ghost who teaches all things
    • taste the good word of God by the gift of faith
    • taste the powers (power, might and counsel of God) in the world.
    • receive judgment of life and are able to judge others in the world with life


    Prior to perfection, the grace of God is sufficiently given to believers so that they are able to repent from sins and weaknesses as many times as they want. Salvation (by grace) is the place for repentance.

    Paul had sufficient grace to be delivered from weakness in the flesh. But, he chose a better thing (glory) than grace. He preferred to obtain glory (be enlightened) even while still having his weakness so that the power of Christ may fall on him at perfection. Paul was persuaded of that better thing (glory), even as Hebrews 6:9 KJV
    declares: "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." God permitted Paul to enter into perfection.

    In perfection, there is no provision for repentance but liberty from any form of bondage/imprisonment. it is Therefore, it is impossible for a saint to repent from sin because that will be putting the Son of God to open shame. But, the saint can be set at liberty from any kind of bondage by the hope of glory and can be judged with same unto eternal life.

    Above is the gist of Hebrews 6: 1-10.
    I have never heard one recognized theologian , commentary, or confession of faith agree with your interpretation of Hebrews 6. You do realize that Romans chapter 7 was written by Paul, right ?

    I'm also curious... Glorious... ( the name makes sense now ) Do you consider yourself perfect ? Have you moved beyond simply being saved by grace ?

    I'm also curious... Glorious... ( the name makes sense now ) Do you consider yourself perfect ? Have you moved beyond simply being saved by grace ?

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    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    No, Scripture is clear. Joh 6:47 I am telling you the truth: he who believes has eternal life.

    It does not say will or may have it, but has it already. Also it is not life, but eternal life. Those that believes has it, so if you do not have it, you did not believe
    And what happens when he stops believing - surely you've heard of believers who stop believing after several years in Christ? And don't give me the spiel that he never truly believed in the first!

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    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by grogers View Post
    A. The prior state of those under discussion is that they had:

    1. Been enlightened.
    2. Had tasted the heavenly gift. (The word for tasted is γευσαμένους (geusamenous) which means to experience. This is the same word that is used in 2:9 where it speaks of Jesus having "tasted" death for everyone. This is not a mere limited sampeling, this is an embracing of the full experience.
    3. Been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. These had received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who serves as the Christian's seal of divine ownership.
    4. Tasted the good word of God. Again, the same word as in verse 4, γευσαμένους.

    B. Present state - They have "fallen away." From what then had they fallen?

    1. An enlightened state.
    2. The experience of the heavenly gift.
    3. The partaking or sharing of the Holy Spirit.
    4. The good word of God.
    5. They had crucified Christ all over again. Like those of 10:26-31, these had "trampled under-foot the Son of God and regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS sanctified" (past tense). In other words, these had come to regard the blood that had once sanctified them as nothing more than the proverbial hog slaughtered on the altar.

    C. The impossible dilemma - It is now impossible to renew them again to repentance. Why? Because they have fallen away from the very thing that brought them to repentance in the first place which was the word of God. It is now impossible to restore them to repentance. One cannot be RE-newed AGAIN to a state they have never occupied. Thus, having once been saved and then having fallen away, they cannot be brought back because they will no longer repent. This is of course representing the extreme case.
    D. Their fate.
    Like the ground that yields thistles and thorns, they are cursed and they end up being burned. Just like those of 10:26-31, whose fate is to fall into the hands of a vengeful God who says, "I will repay." The parabolic illustration come out of Matthew 13:20-21, Mark 4:16-17, and Luke8:13. They had become worthless to the purposes of God and God discarded them.

    1. The writer is not saying that these claimed to have tasted but presents a simple statement of fact - "They had tasted. "Having once shared in the fellowship of Christ these had later abandoned Christ and returned to the law. These had previously left the law in response to the gospel. Now, they are rejecting the cross and going back to the law. This is the foundation they were "laying again."
    2. This is not a question. There is no "if" in the Greek. It simply says, παραπεσόντας (parapesontas) - literally "having fallen away". This is a statement of fact based on actual cases, not a what if scenario. This is an aorist, passive, accusative verb. They had fallen away at some time in the past and that condition continues. They are still fallen away. This is the force of the aorist accusative case. At some point in the past they had fallen away - punctiliar action irrespecrtive of the amount of time involved, and they remain fallen away. Their condition has not changed.
    3. Under the law, sin was not forgiven based on those sacrifices, but based of what those sacrifices represented - the cross. Leviticus chapters 4 and 5 show us that sin was indeed forgiven under the law but, it was not by the law. Even David understood this. "How blessed is the man whose transgression is forgiven, whose sins are covered...to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity," Psalms 32:1-2. He also knew those sacrifices were not the avenue through which forgiveness came. "Thou dost not delight in sacrifice or I would bring it." Psalms 51:1-2.
    4. The inability to renew again is not linked to a supposition of "IF" they were to fall away. The impossibility is linked to the fact that after having been saved they had rejected the cross, not the old sacrifices, and in so doing had shamed Christ openly and defiantly.
    5. The writer does not say they could not be saved again. He says that cannot be brought back to repentance again. This certainly renders them unable to remain saved since there is no longer repentance. These had once been in a saved relationship. Now that relationship has been severed; not by Christ but by them.
    6. He is not comparing the crucifying of Christ again to the repetitious offering of O.T. sacrifice. Those who had rejected and fallen away were considering Christ worthy of the crucifixion. They were rejecting him and his sacrifice. Like those of 10:29, they were considering the blood of Christ "BYWHICH THEY HAD BEEN SANCTIFIED" an unclean thing and had insulted the Spirit of grace.
    7. The writer's point is that these had been sanctified - made holy - A state given only to the saved, something that all of the sacrifices of the O.T combined could never do. In verse 29, he even draws a contrast between the one's of whom he is speaking and those who died under the law for rejecting Moses. They rejected the blood after having been cleansed by it and are now worthy of greater punishment than those who were under the Law. Verse 30 shows their fate. The Hebrew writer describes both the prior and latter states of those who had fallen away.
    It is not often that I come across a pure, concise and insightful rendition of a complex text with a pithy that leaves the objective reader in no need for further clarification. On a Forum such as this, everybody throws in their tuppence into the bowl and it takes clarity of mind to discern which is true. Some debates here sometimes remind me of Paul's experience in Athens (Acts 17:18) and why he was unable to win sufficient converts to establish a church in that city. It's a matter of regret that some argue to score points rather than to seek the truth.

    Athens had long been reputed to harbour learned scholars and philosophers skilled in rhetoric and logic. Ergo, it was no surprise they called Paul a babbler since they couldn't rationalise his gospel! Often you come across some pretty bad interpretation of a passage and defended by the proponent like it's a matter of life and death. In such cases, they refuse to consider the merit of opposing argument and thereby throw objectivity to the wind.

    With regards to the passage under discussion (Heb 6:4-6), some argue that once saved, it's impossible to lose salvation - the very concept the writer of Hebrews (BTW, I believe the author is Paul - vide: ch 10:34 & 13:23) expounded in the passages under discussion. If it is impossible for one who has been enlightened and has partaken of the Holy Ghost to ever fall away, surely the statement that it will be impossible to renew him again to repentance would make zero sense since there's no chance of such ever happening? And we know the Bible never indulged in frivolities and never wrote anything that isn't true!

    In support that it is possible for a saved believer to lose their salvation, I have cited a few passages where believers are exhorted to endure/persevere/overcome to the end (Matt 24:13; Rev 2:26 & 3:5). This encouragement to endure to the end, (in the cited passages Matt & Rev Jesus addressed saved believers) begs the question; if it was impossible to fall away/lose salvation, why would Jesus urge the saved believers to persevere to the end?

    You have succeeded where I failed. Your exegesis has laid bare the truth that no conscientious objective mind interested in Gospel truth in (Heb 6:4-6) will deny.

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    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It is not often that I come across a pure, concise and insightful rendition of a complex text with a pithy that leaves the objective reader in no need for further clarification. On a Forum such as this, everybody throws in their tuppence into the bowl and it takes clarity of mind to discern which is true. Some debates here sometimes remind me of Paul's experience in Athens (Acts 17:18) and why he was unable to win sufficient converts to establish a church in that city. It's a matter of regret that some argue to score points rather than to seek the truth.

    Athens had long been reputed to harbour learned scholars and philosophers skilled in rhetoric and logic. Ergo, it was no surprise they called Paul a babbler since they couldn't rationalise his gospel! Often you come across some pretty bad interpretation of a passage and defended by the proponent like it's a matter of life and death. In such cases, they refuse to consider the merit of opposing argument and thereby throw objectivity to the wind.

    With regards to the passage under discussion (Heb 6:4-6), some argue that once saved, it's impossible to lose salvation - the very concept the writer of Hebrews (BTW, I believe the author is Paul - vide: ch 10:34 & 13:23) expounded in the passages under discussion. If it is impossible for one who has been enlightened and has partaken of the Holy Ghost to ever fall away, surely the statement that it will be impossible to renew him again to repentance would make zero sense since there's no chance of such ever happening? And we know the Bible never indulged in frivolities and never wrote anything that isn't true!

    In support that it is possible for a saved believer to lose their salvation, I have cited a few passages where believers are exhorted to endure/persevere/overcome to the end (Matt 24:13; Rev 2:26 & 3:5). This encouragement to endure to the end, (in the cited passages Matt & Rev Jesus addressed saved believers) begs the question; if it was impossible to fall away/lose salvation, why would Jesus urge the saved believers to persevere to the end?

    You have succeeded where I failed. Your exegesis has laid bare the truth that no conscientious objective mind interested in Gospel truth in (Heb 6:4-6) will deny.
    Do these two statements not contradict one another ?

    His is ONE interpretation of many that can support or deny other doctrines. OSAS vs NOSAS being two of them.

    I would like to hear more of Paul's perfection though. Philippians 3 - 12 "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold o that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me". The perfection that Paul spoke of in Phil 3-15 was the aim... not somewhere in which he had arrived.

    I would be very interested to see this subject expounded on further in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It is not often that I come across a pure, concise and insightful rendition of a complex text with a pithy that leaves the objective reader in no need for further clarification. On a Forum such as this, everybody throws in their tuppence into the bowl and it takes clarity of mind to discern which is true. Some debates here sometimes remind me of Paul's experience in Athens (Acts 17:18) and why he was unable to win sufficient converts to establish a church in that city. It's a matter of regret that some argue to score points rather than to seek the truth.

    Athens had long been reputed to harbour learned scholars and philosophers skilled in rhetoric and logic. Ergo, it was no surprise they called Paul a babbler since they couldn't rationalise his gospel! Often you come across some pretty bad interpretation of a passage and defended by the proponent like it's a matter of life and death. In such cases, they refuse to consider the merit of opposing argument and thereby throw objectivity to the wind.

    With regards to the passage under discussion (Heb 6:4-6), some argue that once saved, it's impossible to lose salvation - the very concept the writer of Hebrews (BTW, I believe the author is Paul - vide: ch 10:34 & 13:23) expounded in the passages under discussion. If it is impossible for one who has been enlightened and has partaken of the Holy Ghost to ever fall away, surely the statement that it will be impossible to renew him again to repentance would make zero sense since there's no chance of such ever happening? And we know the Bible never indulged in frivolities and never wrote anything that isn't true!

    In support that it is possible for a saved believer to lose their salvation, I have cited a few passages where believers are exhorted to endure/persevere/overcome to the end (Matt 24:13; Rev 2:26 & 3:5). This encouragement to endure to the end, (in the cited passages Matt & Rev Jesus addressed saved believers) begs the question; if it was impossible to fall away/lose salvation, why would Jesus urge the saved believers to persevere to the end?

    You have succeeded where I failed. Your exegesis has laid bare the truth that no conscientious objective mind interested in Gospel truth in (Heb 6:4-6) will deny.
    Do these two statements not contradict one another ?

    His is ONE interpretation of many that can support or deny other doctrines. OSAS vs NOSAS being two of them.

    I would like to hear more of Paul's perfection though. Philippians 3 - 12 "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold o that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me". The perfection that Paul spoke of in Phil 3-15 was the aim... not somewhere in which he had arrived.

    I would be very interested to see this subject expounded on further in this thread.

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