Page 27 of 29 FirstFirst ... 1617181920212223242526272829 LastLast
Results 391 to 405 of 430

Thread: Daniel

  1. #391

    Re: Daniel

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Only if you want to be argumentative.

    The rest of us know that when the term "antichrist is used people have an end-times character in mind who is also known as the man of sin.

    Sure if you want to debate if he will exist, that would be an interesting debate. But to debate common usage as not perfectly semantically correct is actually a distraction to the real point you are trying to make, not really a constructive approach.

    Regarding the real point you are attempting to put forward, the man of sin is a future character, not historical. You have not shown why your view should be preferred.

    If one goes too symbolic, any character can fit. Because the second coming isn't really the second coming. Signs in the sky are not really signs in the sky. A great earthquake is not really a great earthquake. A period of persecution is not really a period of persecution. A ruler isn't really a ruler. A war isn't really a war. Israel isn't really Israel. Jerusalem isn't really Jerusalem. Jesus isn't really Jesus. The crucifixion isn't really the crucifixion. The 12 disciples are not really the 12 disciples.

    That method is a joke, you can't pick and choose what is symbolic. The Bible is clear that the man of sin will come to power in Jerusalem amidst signs and wonders, have authority over the nations, and be destroyed in a war against Israel. The attacking armies will be slaughtered then, at the second coming. No historical character can possibly fit that.
    The "method" you have described is of course a joke. Determining what is symbolic and what is literal is the key to understanding Biblical prophecy. You are right, no historical character fits what you have described, but there were many men of lawlessness in the first century, some sat in God's house, some paraded as the coming Messiah. Combining these antichrists as one man may just lead us astray.

    In order to sit in God's house there has to be a God's house. So to make Revelation about the future you need to build one. You will also need a Roman Empire, an emperor, Jerusalem and its sacrifices destroyed, et c. Why imagine all these things resurrected in our future when all of them existed in the past?

  2. #392
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Coastal Mountains
    Posts
    8,461

    Re: Daniel

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    The "method" you have described is of course a joke. Determining what is symbolic and what is literal is the key to understanding Biblical prophecy. You are right, no historical character fits what you have described, but there were many men of lawlessness in the first century, some sat in God's house, some paraded as the coming Messiah. Combining these antichrists as one man may just lead us astray.

    In order to sit in God's house there has to be a God's house. So to make Revelation about the future you need to build one. You will also need a Roman Empire, an emperor, Jerusalem and its sacrifices destroyed, et c. Why imagine all these things resurrected in our future when all of them existed in the past?
    The thing is that no-one is combining these characters as one. When they use the term "antichrist" they have only the final few years of this age in mind , just prior to the second coming. So the ambiguity you are warning against does not exist in reality.

    Sure there have been other deceptive characters in the past, but none who came to power amidst deceiving signs and wonders like 2 Thess 2, and Rev 13 describe. None who were destroyed at the second coming like 2 Thess 2 and Rev 19 describe. None who died at the resurrection like Daniel 11 describes.

    The second coming clearly occurs when Israel is attacked and the attacking armies are destroyed as per Rev 19, as per Joel 2/3, as per Zech 14. This particular war, when huge armies are attacking Jerusalem is when the man of sin dies, at the second coming. This is nothing like 70AD when the Romans survived well and did the destruction, and Jews were slaughtered.

    It's oh so easy and lazy to ascribe anything to symbols which contradicts your view, and keep the few things as literal that do actually match. That's a self perpetuating belief system impossible to contradict. Everything that contradicts your view, suddenly becomes a symbol. People who use that method believe in a multiple variety of inconsistent historical beliefs.

    What is more accurate hermeneutics is to see symbols only when they are blatantly obvious, and watch for literal events to unfold exactly as described. You claim these events existed in the past, on the contrary , nothing like these bible prophecies has occurred yet. Your views are not even close, you can only make them seem to match by seeing symbols whenever the bible mentions the second coming and the destruction of a great army that attacks Israel .

  3. #393
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Coastal Mountains
    Posts
    8,461

    Re: Daniel

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    The "method" you have described is of course a joke. Determining what is symbolic and what is literal is the key to understanding Biblical prophecy. You are right, no historical character fits what you have described, but there were many men of lawlessness in the first century, some sat in God's house, some paraded as the coming Messiah. Combining these antichrists as one man may just lead us astray.

    In order to sit in God's house there has to be a God's house. So to make Revelation about the future you need to build one. You will also need a Roman Empire, an emperor, Jerusalem and its sacrifices destroyed, et c. Why imagine all these things resurrected in our future when all of them existed in the past?
    It may seem far-fetched to you, but Erdogan is planning to re-establish the power of Turkey, and to have many nations in a Turkish Union. In the past some Christians expected the EU to have 10 horns, yet Turkey shall have the 10 horns. In Palestine, which is one of the broken pieces of the Ottoman Empire (Roman Empire) a small country (small horn) rose up called Israel. If it rises further to dominate Palestine, Syria and Iraq, it shall be the little horn, the small country which rises over 3. The old Syrian beast will arise again from the pit, that beast/demon during Antiochus era who likes to impersonate God on the temple. The demon will be given a human mouth, it shall have a human to represent it for 3.5 years of rule (the man of sin). The beast and the 10 horns will hate the EU and Vatican.

    Adnan Oktar and Erdogan are the ones who seem to be promoting this Turkish Union, and the rise of the Istanbul Caliphate again. Included in their plans is an inter-faith situation planned for the temple mount:
    https://jewishwebsite.com/opinion/a-...idarity/30264/

  4. #394

    Re: Daniel

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    It may seem far-fetched to you, but Erdogan is planning to re-establish the power of Turkey, and to have many nations in a Turkish Union. In the past some Christians expected the EU to have 10 horns, yet Turkey shall have the 10 horns. In Palestine, which is one of the broken pieces of the Ottoman Empire (Roman Empire) a small country (small horn) rose up called Israel. If it rises further to dominate Palestine, Syria and Iraq, it shall be the little horn, the small country which rises over 3. The old Syrian beast will arise again from the pit, that beast/demon during Antiochus era who likes to impersonate God on the temple. The demon will be given a human mouth, it shall have a human to represent it for 3.5 years of rule (the man of sin). The beast and the 10 horns will hate the EU and Vatican.

    Adnan Oktar and Erdogan are the ones who seem to be promoting this Turkish Union, and the rise of the Istanbul Caliphate again. Included in their plans is an inter-faith situation planned for the temple mount:
    https://jewishwebsite.com/opinion/a-...idarity/30264/
    Although I have my own interpretation of the ten horns, I don't underestimate Erdogan.

  5. #395
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Coastal Mountains
    Posts
    8,461

    Re: Daniel

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    Although I have my own interpretation of the ten horns, I don't underestimate Erdogan.
    I guess the ten horns occurred in history, just like an historical resurrection, historical second coming, historical man of sin? If we place too many things into history we are undermining how dynamically appropriate and relevant every aspect of the Bible is to us during this 21st century. We are a supernatural people in an age that still has inspired prophecies remaining to be fulfilled.

  6. #396
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitt Meadows b.c.
    Posts
    5,171
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Daniel

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    It's not logical for every prophecy to mention everything, due to so many events occurring at the second coming.

    Sure Rev 19 does not mention a location, but it mentions a final battle involving the beast. The beast starts his reign with deceiving signs and wonders just like the man of sin, who is also destroyed at the second coming.

    Daniel 11 also places the destruction of the boastful leader at Jerusalem at the time of the resurrection.

    It all fits, the boastful leader of Rev 13, Rev 19, 2 Thess 2, Dan 7 will be destroyed at Jerusalem at the second coming. This is one consistent pattern that is pretty easy to understand.

    Zech 14 also places that final battle at Jerusalem, and so does the winepress of wrath of Rev 19 match the Rev 14 winepress of wrath just outside Jerusalem, which matches the winepress of wrath in Joel 3 on the DOTL just outside Jerusalem at Jehosaphat.

    Joel 2 states that the army extends from the Dead Sea to the Mediterranean, which explains why the valley of Megiddo is also involved during the battle of Armageddon.

    The final war will be of more dramatic proportions than 70 AD, and many events will occur then that do not match 70 AD which was a slaughter of Jews. The war involving the beast is a slaughter of armies attacking Jerusalem, note the difference??

    Second coming and DOTL prophecies fit well with each other. To move the second coming into history does not fit all the pieces together of this massive attacking army spread across Israel and whose destruction is concentrated at a location just outside of Jerusalem at a location described as the "winepress" of wrath.

    I don't put the second coming back in history but I see rev 19 is a repeated event of Jesus defeating His enemies over time like in the verse below as it didn't happen

    rev 2:16
    16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

    It all fits, the boastful leader of Rev 13, Rev 19, 2 Thess 2, Dan 7 will be destroyed at Jerusalem at the second coming. This is one consistent pattern that is pretty easy to understand.
    Not one of these mention this leader being destroyed at Jerusalem.

    The beast and all beast is not complete in a person he is also a demon who influences nations and their leaders that's how he can be cast into the lake of fire alive before the judgement day

  7. #397
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Coastal Mountains
    Posts
    8,461

    Re: Daniel

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I don't put the second coming back in history but I see rev 19 is a repeated event of Jesus defeating His enemies over time like in the verse below as it didn't happen

    rev 2:16
    16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.



    Not one of these mention this leader being destroyed at Jerusalem.

    The beast and all beast is not complete in a person he is also a demon who influences nations and their leaders that's how he can be cast into the lake of fire alive before the judgement day
    I certainly agree that the beast is a demon. When that demon is given a mouth, this means he speaks through the man of sin. Much of the description of the 42 months of the Rev 13 beast, match the 42 month reign of the antichrist.

    Your view of Rev 19 is missing the multiple overlaps between the various second coming prophecies.
    Rev 19 Joel 3 Rev 14 winepress of wrath , located just outside of Jerusalem, at the end of this age.
    Rev 19 and 2 Thess 2 he is destroyed at the second coming
    Rev 13, Dan 7 boastful ruler rules for 3.5 years, Dan 7 placing this event at the end of the worldly kingdoms.
    Dan 11 boastful ruler is destroyed at Mt Zion at the first General resurrection, matching the first resurrection after the martyrdom of the beast of Rev 20.

    There are many more prophecies that create this overlap of multiple events at the second coming. Many of these are specifically covered in Rev 19, like the end of the beast, the winepress, the feast of birds, the destruction of attacking armies (unlike 70 AD), the heavenly army, the second coming of Jesus, the ruling with an iron rod.

    There are multiple matching events of Rev 19 with multiple second coming prophecies, yet you simply disregard this as a second coming description.

    The beast is destroyed at the second coming. Simple as that.

  8. #398
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    18,125

    Re: Daniel

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I don't put the second coming back in history but I see rev 19 is a repeated event of Jesus defeating His enemies over time like in the verse below as it didn't happen

    rev 2:16
    16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.



    No doubt this didn't happen but I wouldn't go as far as to say it won't and can't happen then. I would say it hasn't happened yet. The timing of this is the 2nd coming, this matches with some of Revelation 19.

    Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

    Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


    Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.




    Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    Jesus was just addressing one church in particular, yet He was obviously applying verse 17 to all 7 churches, the fact the text says churches rather than church.

  9. #399
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    8,202
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Daniel

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Yes the sword is His word which is the only weapon mentioned in revelation 19 thus it is not a literal battle but a symbolic sign of judgement

    Armageddon is mentioned in the bible

    Revelation 16:16
    16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon

    Zechariah 14 isnít the antichrist victory over Jerusalem God gathers them and that is what He did in 70AD

    Zechariah 14;2
    2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city

    Luke 19:41-44
    41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, ďIf you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peaceóbut now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of Godís coming to you.Ē
    1. Thank you for reminding me about Armageddon in Rev 16:16.
    2. Zech 14 is 100% end times. It should not be confused with events of 70AD. After we are told in verses 1-2 that the Lord will cause/influence the nations to gather against Jerusalem, next we are told in v-3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north and half of it toward the south.
    . I will leave you to confirm whether these verses occurred in 70 AD? Did Jesus fight the Romans after they ransacked Jerusalem and carried thousands away into captivity? NO!!!

    5. But Luke 19:41-44 refers to 70AD.

  10. #400

    Re: Daniel

    1 John 2:18

    "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."


    Looks as if that the AC was in their day.

  11. #401
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    8,202
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Daniel

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I certainly agree that the beast is a demon. When that demon is given a mouth, this means he speaks through the man of sin. Much of the description of the 42 months of the Rev 13 beast, match the 42 month reign of the antichrist.
    1. The Antichrist will be a man described as a "beast" in his own right Rev 13:1. IOW, the man of sin and the Antichrist is the Beast of Rev 13.
    2. Satan was never described as a Beast in the Book of Revelation. He is rather called the "dragon"; vide Rev 12.
    3. The phrase, "Beast" was first used in the Book of Daniel as a representation of all (kings and kingdoms) that oppressed and subjugated Daniel's people, Israel.
    4. The future Antichrist falls into this category on account of his attack and capture of Jerusalem in according to Zech 14:2

  12. #402
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    8,202
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Daniel

    Quote Originally Posted by Briefcase View Post
    1 John 2:18

    "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."

    Looks as if that the AC was in their day.
    What you missed in the passage is the reference to an Antichrist (singular) that shall come and the many antichrists [plural] that are even now on earth. So the AC was not in their day (during the Apostolic age when John wrote the epistle) as you claim.

  13. #403
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Coastal Mountains
    Posts
    8,461

    Re: Daniel

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    1. The Antichrist will be a man described as a "beast" in his own right Rev 13:1. IOW, the man of sin and the Antichrist is the Beast of Rev 13.
    2. Satan was never described as a Beast in the Book of Revelation. He is rather called the "dragon"; vide Rev 12.
    3. The phrase, "Beast" was first used in the Book of Daniel as a representation of all (kings and kingdoms) that oppressed and subjugated Daniel's people, Israel.
    4. The future Antichrist falls into this category on account of his attack and capture of Jerusalem in according to Zech 14:2
    If rulers in Dan 10:13-20 can be demon princes, then rulers in Dan 7 can be demon princes, especially since there are 4 kingdoms that last 100s of years, and 4 kings that last hundreds of years, they are therefore not human kings due to the length of reign. If Dan 7 described many kings for those 4 kingdoms then they could be human kings, but only 4 are mentioned. In addition the beast comes up from the bottomless pit, a location of demons.

    I completely agree that the antichrist/man of sin is a man, and I agree Satan is the dragon, not a beast.

    I also agree that the beast of Rev 13 is an obvious reference to the man of sin, but on closer inspection that beast only matches the boastful man of sin, when given a mouth. It exists before that, but when given a mouth, then it matches the 2 Thess 2 description of the antichrist. I see that mouth as it's mouthpiece or human representative of the demon prince of the region.

  14. #404
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitt Meadows b.c.
    Posts
    5,171
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Daniel

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    What you missed in the passage is the reference to an Antichrist (singular) that shall come and the many antichrists [plural] that are even now on earth. So the AC was not in their day (during the Apostolic age when John wrote the epistle) as you claim.
    But There is no THE Antichrist the man of sin and the one referred to as the beast is just a antichrist

  15. #405
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitt Meadows b.c.
    Posts
    5,171
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Daniel

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    1. Thank you for reminding me about Armageddon in Rev 16:16.
    2. Zech 14 is 100% end times. It should not be confused with events of 70AD. After we are told in verses 1-2 that the Lord will cause/influence the nations to gather against Jerusalem, next we are told in v-3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north and half of it toward the south.
    . I will leave you to confirm whether these verses occurred in 70 AD? Did Jesus fight the Romans after they ransacked Jerusalem and carried thousands away into captivity? NO!!!

    5. But Luke 19:41-44 refers to 70AD.
    But God did JuDge Rome but not right away.

    I donít see the split in the mount of olives as literal but Since Zechariah wrote those words Jesus did stand on the mount of olives as he gave the command to the deciples to take the gospel to the world and when they did it it shook the world as the living water within them the Holy Spirit flowed to the east and to the west

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (1 members and 1 guests)

  1. marty fox

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 41
    Last Post: Oct 8th 2019, 04:47 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: Jun 21st 2018, 03:12 PM
  3. Daniel 10:14.
    By divaD in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: Oct 18th 2017, 11:31 AM
  4. How many times did Daniel watch the little horn? Daniel 7
    By vinsight4u8 in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: Sep 28th 2016, 09:44 PM
  5. Did Daniel see two leopard beasts in Daniel 7?
    By vinsight4u8 in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: Nov 21st 2011, 11:07 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •