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Thread: The spirit and the soul.

  1. #106
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    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The grammar says "IN pleasure". That is, her position earns the consequences. So also "IN Adam" we have certain status, "IN Abraham" Levi payed tithes, although in reality he received tithes, and "IN Christ" we sit in heavenly places, but you are not sitting in heaven. Added to this, the wages of sin is physical death. Ezekiel 18:20 use the designation of a man - a soul (e.g. Genesis 12:5, Acts 2:41). The grammar of Ezekiel 18:20 is; "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. ... and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." The "HIM" is the soul.
    It is the same point that I emphasized when I said: "Obviously, death here refers to that of the soul..."

  2. #107
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    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    What is happening when you answer me is that you summarize what you think I said. You then compare it to your concept and disagree. What I am asking is you to take a verbatim statement of mine and show it to be wrong. Let's take an example from your posting #56. You wrote ...
    I responded exactly in line with your statements. I will be happy to address wherever you believe you were quoted out of context.

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Now,
    • AT THE TIME OF JESUS'S BIRTH ... what mission did the Babe in swaddling clothes have?
    • AT THE TIME OF JESUS'S BIRTH ... what mission failed or did not fail?
    • AT THE TIME OF JESUS'S BIRTH ... who where the majority who did not believe?
    • AT THE TIME OF JESUS'S BIRTH ... which worldwide Church was established?
    1. At the time of Jesus birth is a general reference to the first advent.
    2. When Jesus came into the world, his mission was to bring light (salvation by faith) to Israel and by extension, include the Gentiles who hitherto, were excluded from the commonwealth of Israel (Eph 2:11-12).
    3. The majority of Israelites that did not believe Jesus during the first advent were the Pharisees, Sadducees, Herodians, etc.
    4. The death of Jesus led to the Apostolic age during which the worldwide Church/Body of Christ/Christendom, choose your pick, was established.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    How can we have an intelligent conversation like this?

    • Jesus is announced as SAVIOR at age 30 by John Baptist TO ISRAEL.
    • Jesus had no mission at His birth
    • NO requirement OF ISRAEL was made to believe in Jesus the day He was born
    • NO minority of OF ISRAEL believed in Jesus the day He was born
    • NO mission can called a success if the MAJORITY rejected it
    • NO worldwide Church was established AT THE TIME OF JESUS'S BIRTH!

    I don't for one moment think that you are handicapped, or that you wish to tell untruths. Your absurdities come because you will not read my sentence and quiz YOURSELF whether the actual words I wrote are the truth. And this manner of reading my words is stopping you getting the truth of many matters because you do it to scripture as well. Stop reading through colored glasses. Read and assimilate what is actually there.
    I totally agree that it is impossible to have an intelligent conversation when you fail to understand a plain and simple exegesis. Without naming anyone, there are people that one would sometimes struggle to understand where they are coming from in a discourse, but certainly not you. So I am truly dumbfounded that you completely misunderstood what I wrote.

    You claimed that the Israel generation that lived at the time of Jesus didn't have a "Saviour to believe in". I pointed out how wrong you were because his disciples, including many others that cannot be counted, e.g. Nicodemus, did believe in him. Seems you got confused because I said: "when Jesus was born". Other than you, I don't know anyone else that doesn't understand that it's a reference to the life and death of Jesus otherwise called the first advent.

    5. Nobody is expected to believe a baby who cannot speak, so your references to Israel believing a baby, a worldwide church, etc. been established when Jesus was born is ludicrous, isn't it?

    Either you are the one reading my posts with coloured glass or you need plain one to truly see what I wrote!

  3. #108
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    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    [QUOTE=Trivalee;3549215]I responded exactly in line with your statements. I will be happy to address wherever you believe you were quoted out of context.


    1. At the time of Jesus birth is a general reference to the first advent.
    2. When Jesus came into the world, his mission was to bring light (salvation by faith) to Israel and by extension, include the Gentiles who hitherto, were excluded from the commonwealth of Israel (Eph 2:11-12).
    3. The majority of Israelites that did not believe Jesus during the first advent were the Pharisees, Sadducees, Herodians, etc.
    4. The death of Jesus led to the Apostolic age during which the worldwide Church/Body of Christ/Christendom, choose your pick, was established.



    I totally agree that it is impossible to have an intelligent conversation when you fail to understand a plain and simple exegesis. Without naming anyone, there are people that one would sometimes struggle to understand where they are coming from in a discourse, but certainly not you. So I am truly dumbfounded that you completely misunderstood what I wrote.

    You claimed that the Israel generation that lived at the time of Jesus didn't have a "Saviour to believe in". I pointed out how wrong you were because his disciples, including many others that cannot be counted, e.g. Nicodemus, did believe in him. Seems you got confused because I said: "when Jesus was born". Other than you, I don't know anyone else that doesn't understand that it's a reference to the life and death of Jesus otherwise called the first advent.

    5. Nobody is expected to believe a baby who cannot speak, so your references to Israel believing a baby, a worldwide church, etc. been established when Jesus was born is ludicrous, isn't it?

    Either you are the one reading my posts with coloured glass or you need plain one to truly see what I wrote!
    Your response is noted.

  4. #109
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    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Eternal means no beginning and no end. But every man has a beginning - even our Lord Jesus. Psalm 2:7 says; “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." So also Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5 and 5:5.
    You're a basket case. You really need to stop responding to my post with your mangled garbage. Eternal has no beginning then post scriptures about a beginning? What's wrong with you? I'm tired of nonsense like this so knock it off!!!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Anything that has a beginning cannot be eternal.
    See? Wt.....? That's wack! Be gone! LOL


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    So the spirit is neither eternal nor immortal.
    What are you on? I want some!

  5. #110
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    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Eternal means no beginning and no end. But every man has a beginning - even our Lord Jesus. Psalm 2:7 says; “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." So also Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5 and 5:5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    You're a basket case. You really need to stop responding to my post with your mangled garbage. Eternal has no beginning then post scriptures about a beginning? What's wrong with you? I'm tired of nonsense like this so knock it off!!!!!
    But the word eternal only exists in our translations, not in the inspired texts. In Hebrew it is mostly the translation of the word "olam", yet Moses says in Exo. 15:18 "The LORD shall reign for ever and ever" the Hebrew has "The LORD shall reign the olam and further" (olam va ed), how can there be a "further" of the never begun and never ending eternity? The LXX uses the word "aion" where the Hebrew has "olam" BTW. In Exo. 15:8 it says "τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ ἐπ᾿ αἰῶνα"

    The Lord Jesus says in Mat. 12:32 "neither in this world, neither in the world to come", the Greek has "neither in this aion, neither in the aion to come", so this "eternal" has an end and the next "eternal" has a beginning.

    In Luke 20:34, 35 the Lord Jesus says "And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world (aion) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (aion), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage".

    John 12:25 says "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world (kosmos) shall keep it unto life eternal (aionic)". Since we already know when this aionic life starts (Luke 20:34, 35) it is not in this aion.

    Thus we have here a clear beginning of the next aion: when the dead are resurrected to aionic life. See what Strong says about the word "aion"

    Strong's Concordance
    aión: a space of time, an age
    Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
    Transliteration: aión
    Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
    Definition: a space of time, an age
    Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity. (The underlined is not true, God made a purpose of the aions Eph. 3:11, so no series of aions stretching into infinity.)

    Source BibleHub
    "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
    a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
    rightly dividing the word of truth."
    2 Tim. 2:15


  6. #111
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    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adonijah View Post
    But the word eternal only exists in our translations, not in the inspired texts. In Hebrew it is mostly the translation of the word "olam", yet Moses says in Exo. 15:18 "The LORD shall reign for ever and ever" the Hebrew has "The LORD shall reign the olam and further" (olam va ed), how can there be a "further" of the never begun and never ending eternity? The LXX uses the word "aion" where the Hebrew has "olam" BTW. In Exo. 15:8 it says "τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ ἐπ᾿ αἰῶνα"

    The Lord Jesus says in Mat. 12:32 "neither in this world, neither in the world to come", the Greek has "neither in this aion, neither in the aion to come", so this "eternal" has an end and the next "eternal" has a beginning.

    In Luke 20:34, 35 the Lord Jesus says "And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world (aion) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (aion), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage".

    John 12:25 says "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world (kosmos) shall keep it unto life eternal (aionic)". Since we already know when this aionic life starts (Luke 20:34, 35) it is not in this aion.

    Thus we have here a clear beginning of the next aion: when the dead are resurrected to aionic life. See what Strong says about the word "aion"

    Strong's Concordance
    aión: a space of time, an age
    Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
    Transliteration: aión
    Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
    Definition: a space of time, an age
    Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity. (The underlined is not true, God made a purpose of the aions Eph. 3:11, so no series of aions stretching into infinity.)

    Source BibleHub
    You are correct in the technical meaning of the word. But it is the usage in scripture that must set the meaning. Hebrew and Greek are very rich languages and words can have multiple meanings. Example "protos" in the Greek can mean FIRST in Time, AND it can mean FIRST in Importance. How shall we know which one to apply? Well, the context, grammar and possible absurdities will tell. And in the matter of "eternal" versus "everlasting" so also must the text set the meaning.

    The rest of the Bible reveals a God who had no parents, no beginning of days, no end of days or life, One Who inhabits "eternity" (Heb.7:3). So we USE the word "ETERNAL", and we admit that His LIFE (His vitality) is ETERNAL. So God is FROM age TO age without pause or beginning or end. But then, on a certain day a man is born. So he is not eternal. As Adam showed, he is capable of dying - making him mortal. And his spirit enjoys no superiority over the spirit of steer that is slaughtered for food, except that man, made in God's image and likeness, has the privilege of resurrection. So his spirit is kept after death by God for his resurrection. But then, during his lifetime, the man turns to Jesus Christ in faith and word. His spirit it born anew. God and His Life dwell in the man's spirit. So the condition of the man is that while he is mortal in body, because he HAS God's life, his spirit is immortal. That is, the man's spirit had a BEGINNING but will have no end. He is thus NOT Eternal, but EVERLASTING.

    Now, if you study every mention where this occurs, you will discover that the translators have used "ETERNAL" when the Subject is God and/or His Life. But when they discuss a finite being who is subject to the mechanisms of God and/or His Life, the matter is "EVERLASTING". So also with a Covenant. It is established one day in TIME. But God guarantees its perpetuity. So it is an EVERLASTING covenant. You could say;
    1. God is FROM everlasting, is NOW and is TO everlasting. But more elegant is, "God is ETERNAL"
    2. Man is begotten and is NOW and is TO everlasting. That's all we can say.

  7. #112
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    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You are correct in the technical meaning of the word. But it is the usage in scripture that must set the meaning. Hebrew and Greek are very rich languages and words can have multiple meanings. Example "protos" in the Greek can mean FIRST in Time, AND it can mean FIRST in Importance. How shall we know which one to apply? Well, the context, grammar and possible absurdities will tell. And in the matter of "eternal" versus "everlasting" so also must the text set the meaning.

    The rest of the Bible reveals a God who had no parents, no beginning of days, no end of days or life, One Who inhabits "eternity" (Heb.7:3). So we USE the word "ETERNAL", and we admit that His LIFE (His vitality) is ETERNAL. So God is FROM age TO age without pause or beginning or end. But then, on a certain day a man is born. So he is not eternal. As Adam showed, he is capable of dying - making him mortal. And his spirit enjoys no superiority over the spirit of steer that is slaughtered for food, except that man, made in God's image and likeness, has the privilege of resurrection. So his spirit is kept after death by God for his resurrection. But then, during his lifetime, the man turns to Jesus Christ in faith and word. His spirit it born anew. God and His Life dwell in the man's spirit. So the condition of the man is that while he is mortal in body, because he HAS God's life, his spirit is immortal. That is, the man's spirit had a BEGINNING but will have no end. He is thus NOT Eternal, but EVERLASTING.

    Now, if you study every mention where this occurs, you will discover that the translators have used "ETERNAL" when the Subject is God and/or His Life. But when they discuss a finite being who is subject to the mechanisms of God and/or His Life, the matter is "EVERLASTING". So also with a Covenant. It is established one day in TIME. But God guarantees its perpetuity. So it is an EVERLASTING covenant. You could say;
    1. God is FROM everlasting, is NOW and is TO everlasting. But more elegant is, "God is ETERNAL"
    2. Man is begotten and is NOW and is TO everlasting. That's all we can say.
    That depends who you believe to be God in Scripture and noticeably in the O.T.. In Gen. 2:4 we have the first clue: "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD (Jehovah) God (Elohim) made the earth and the heavens"

    Of this LORD God we read in Isa. 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (Jehovah), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God (El) formed, neither shall there be after me", thus Scripture teaches us that Jehovah is the formed God.

    The formed God is He who came later as Christ in the flesh: Col. 1:15 "who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation". Therefore Jehovah is not God everlasting while Paul says in 1 Cor. 15:24 - 28 "then—the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet the last enemy is done away death for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all" (YLT)

    It is Christ who created everything Col. 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him"

    So the Son, Jehovah does not reign nor exists everlasting, but will deliver everything to the Father, He the Son will subject Himself. So we have a mirrored situation:

    A | Image of God
    _B | First of Creation (Jehovah)
    __C | Became Flesh (Jesus Christ)
    _B | Raised from the dead (Jehovah)
    A | Image of God

    First we have the humiliating steps A, B and C then the elevating steps B and A

    The only times the Father is mentioned is when Jehovah became Christ, before that never.

    So the word Olam or Aion never means eternal not even when in relation to God (Jehovah).
    "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
    a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
    rightly dividing the word of truth."
    2 Tim. 2:15


  8. #113
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    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adonijah View Post
    That depends who you believe to be God in Scripture and noticeably in the O.T.. In Gen. 2:4 we have the first clue: "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD (Jehovah) God (Elohim) made the earth and the heavens"

    Of this LORD God we read in Isa. 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (Jehovah), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God (El) formed, neither shall there be after me", thus Scripture teaches us that Jehovah is the formed God.

    The formed God is He who came later as Christ in the flesh: Col. 1:15 "who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation". Therefore Jehovah is not God everlasting while Paul says in 1 Cor. 15:24 - 28 "then—the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet the last enemy is done away death for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all" (YLT)

    It is Christ who created everything Col. 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him"

    So the Son, Jehovah does not reign nor exists everlasting, but will deliver everything to the Father, He the Son will subject Himself. So we have a mirrored situation:

    A | Image of God
    _B | First of Creation (Jehovah)
    __C | Became Flesh (Jesus Christ)
    _B | Raised from the dead (Jehovah)
    A | Image of God

    First we have the humiliating steps A, B and C then the elevating steps B and A

    The only times the Father is mentioned is when Jehovah became Christ, before that never.

    So the word Olam or Aion never means eternal not even when in relation to God (Jehovah).
    OK. I see where you are going with this. May I have your permission to pass on answering this as it is off the theme of the thread, and it deserves it's own thread. Thanks bro and go well.

  9. #114
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    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    There is a difference between being an "eternal spirit" and having "immortality." All men were created to be eternal souls. But not have accepted Eternal Life. Only those who have accepted Eternal Life are "immortals."
    Those who have accepted the promised eternal life will become immortal at the resurrection.

  10. #115
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    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    You folks are trying to say we are already immortal. No, nobody has immortality yet. It is only promised to those of us with God's Holy Spirit. We can call ourselves saved, even immortal because God's promises are a sure thing. But we must remember we are still prophesying the future when we do. It still is in the hope stage:

    Col. 1:27 "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"
    I am fully in agreement with you on this one. What believers now have is an irrevocable promise (contingent upon us to remain in Him to the end) of eternal life that will be redeemed at the appointed time.

  11. #116
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    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by dailyprayerwarrior View Post
    I've heard it said that the soul is your mind, will, and emotions. Your spirit is who you ultimately are. God breathed His life into your spirit. Together, your spirit and soul make up who you are. Your physical body is an "earth suit" so that you can live on the planet. 1 Thessalonians 5:23, we are 3 part beings. We have a spirit, soul, and body.
    This is an acceptable belief. Thank you.

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    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Those who have accepted the promised eternal life will become immortal at the resurrection.
    Right. This language is fraught with difficulty. It sounds like if all human beings will exist forever that all have "eternal life." But "eternal life" has a more technical meaning, indicating that there are an exclusive set of people who will not just exist forever, but will also receive immortal bodies to look like Christ.

    This kind of immortality relates to the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden. It is the life in which we fellowship with God and with His people forever. Those who reject Christ will exist forever, but will not have this kind of "immortality."

    Yes, immortality begins with the resurrection and with those who put on new bodies designed to look like Christ. We already have Eternal Life legally, according to Christ. But immortality begins with the "1st Resurrection." It begins with we put on new immortal bodies.

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    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Adam was mortal but death was not in the picture because he had the tree of life. No matter that phrase used he could have lived for eternity. The tree of life returns for mortals and it is said - no more death. Do with that what you want.

    no matter the phrase, not that phrase.

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    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Adam was mortal but death was not in the picture because he had the tree of life.
    Not eating of that tree means death was in the picture. Had he eaten of it, he would not have died. Since he died, we know he never ate of it and that is based upon this:

    Gen 3:22* And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:*

    God did not want that to happen after the fall so he made it impossible to reach.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Not eating of that tree means death was in the picture. Had he eaten of it, he would not have died. Since he died, we know he never ate of it and that is based upon this:

    Gen 3:22* And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:*

    God did not want that to happen after the fall so he made it impossible to reach.
    completely wrong. Mortals must continue to not sin to have access and not die. Sin.....no access.....die.

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