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Thread: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

  1. #31
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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    But how could God's presence be at that physical location forever when our world flees from God's presence and there is a new heaven and a new earth?
    The Bible says that the foundations of the earth remain forever. Thus we will NEVER have a new planet earth according to Psalm 104:5 and Micah 6:2

    Whenever the Bible refers to a "new earth", this means new ground/land. This is what the Hebrew word Erets means, and the Greek word GE.

    God's presence will forever be in Jerusalem, that is where the New Jerusalem will be, even when the land rolls away and becomes new. God's promise in Ezekiel is that his presence in that location will be there forever, from the moment his presence enters that future temple.

  2. #32
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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by RockSolid View Post
    I believe it is symbolic of the New Jerusalem where the Lord dwells with His people forever. Where the true worshippers worship in Spirit and in truth. Where His Law is written on our hearts.

    Notice the name that is given to the city,
    “...And from that day the name of the city will be ‘The Lord Is There.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *48:35‬ *NLT‬‬

    Isaiah describes it with a new name,
    “...They will call you the City of the Lord, and Zion of the Holy One of Israel.”
    **Isaiah‬ *60:14‬ *NLT‬‬

    The writer of Hebrews states that the New Covenant saints have come to this city,
    “You have not come to a physical mountain, to a place of flaming fire, darkness, gloom, and whirlwind, as the Israelites did at Mount Sinai.”
    **Hebrews‬ *12:18‬ *NLT
    “No, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to countless thousands of angels in a joyful gathering.”
    **Hebrews‬ *12:22‬ *NLT
    You are getting confused with the destiny of the saved, who are citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem. Yes we have this spiritual citizenship where the Lord dwells with us forever.

    On the other hand the Bible repeatedly describes the destiny of mortal nations on earth. Many verses give detailed descriptions of their destiny. It's nonsensical to allegorise all those descriptions and it is nonsensical to allegorise 90 verses of Ezekiel 40-42 which describe a detailed future temple to be rebuilt. Those surviving nations are mortal, and Israel is chief among them and shall have a future blessed temple as per Ezekiel 42.

    Its easy to brush off 90 verses of measurements and construction detail as symbols, symbols of what may I ask?

  3. #33
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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    I've been all over the map on Ezekiel's temple vision. It seems unlikely that a temple is in the near future due to my belief that the only party interested in such a project is a small Jewish minority, and they have not had control of the site for 1,949 years -- and still counting.
    Yea, it's a tough one. I tend to agree that it is unlikely that Israel's small religious party will get its temple. For one, God destroyed Herod's temple because the OT temple worship had expired in the midst of Jewish apostasy. I don't see any major prophecies, apart from symbolism, that indicates a great temple restoration will take place. Lots of Scriptures and prophecies were devoted to the Persian restoration of the temple. Why nothing with regard to a future temple restoration? Probably because it's not going to happen. The NT temple is Christ and the Church, and it is a heavenly temple--not an earthly temple.

  4. #34
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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yea, it's a tough one. I tend to agree that it is unlikely that Israel's small religious party will get its temple. For one, God destroyed Herod's temple because the OT temple worship had expired in the midst of Jewish apostasy. I don't see any major prophecies, apart from symbolism, that indicates a great temple restoration will take place. Lots of Scriptures and prophecies were devoted to the Persian restoration of the temple. Why nothing with regard to a future temple restoration? Probably because it's not going to happen. The NT temple is Christ and the Church, and it is a heavenly temple--not an earthly temple.
    Yes the church is a heavenly temple. And we are citizens of the heavenly New Jerusalem.

    Ezekiel 40-43 describes detailed dimensions over 90 verses, and a promise from God to indwell that temple. This detail is not convincingly contradicted by the fact that we are the temple. The 2 concepts are not mutually exclusive, they can co-exist.

    In addition to Ezekiel 40-43, we have 2 Thess 2, Rev 11:1-2, and Amos 9:11. Both the OT and NT are pointing towards a rebuilt temple. I believe it will be built in this age, yet sanctified in the Messianic Age.

  5. #35

    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    I marvel at all the wonderful thought and faith that has been expressed on this thread. I originally said I thought there were three options to explain why Ezekiel's vision of a temple was never realized, or even attempted, but I now realize I left out a fourth option that may have been hinted at here.

    Ezekiel was shown and measured the temple in heaven. We know there was a temple in heaven; Jesus promised to return to Earth to bring his disciples to his Father's house with many rooms, and in 2 Cor. 5:1, "For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands."

    The temple in heaven is mentioned several times in Rev. I take this house to be God's temple in heaven, and now lean toward Ezekiel's vision being the promise to enter that dwelling place.

  6. #36

    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The Bible says that the foundations of the earth remain forever. Thus we will NEVER have a new planet earth according to Psalm 104:5 and Micah 6:2

    Whenever the Bible refers to a "new earth", this means new ground/land. This is what the Hebrew word Erets means, and the Greek word GE.

    God's presence will forever be in Jerusalem, that is where the New Jerusalem will be, even when the land rolls away and becomes new. God's promise in Ezekiel is that his presence in that location will be there forever, from the moment his presence enters that future temple.
    The New Jerusalem had no sea, no need for a Sun or Moon, and NO TEMPLE. New Jerusalem is a spirit city, not physical by our standards. Need I repeat that flesh cannot inherit spirit, and mortal cannot inherit immortality.

  7. #37
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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    The New Jerusalem had no sea, no need for a Sun or Moon, and NO TEMPLE. New Jerusalem is a spirit city, not physical by our standards. Need I repeat that flesh cannot inherit spirit, and mortal cannot inherit immortality.
    We will have spiritual bodies, but the disciples interacted with Jesus and his spiritual body and it had a strong physical aspect to it. They could touch him, he could walk, eat fish, break bread. So even a spiritual city could have a physical aspect, just like a spiritual body has a physical aspect.

    Sure after the 1000 years when the New Jerusalem comes to earth, there is no temple and no sea in that new land surface on earth, yet we know that the foundations of the land (the earth's foundations) will last forever according to Psalm 104:5 and Micah 6:2. So our views on the "new land" should take into account that the original languages never meant a new planet.

    In Ezekiel 43 God promises that when he enters the rebuilt temple of the precise detailed dimensions of Ezekiel 40-42, that "this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet. This is where I will live among the Israelites forever."

    Sure the temple may cease, but God promises that his presence will be in that place forever, and he also promises that the foundations of the land /ground will last forever.

    To correctly divide the word, we need to learn to embrace every sentence in the Bible, not just our favorite concepts.

  8. #38
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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Ezekiel 43:7 *And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

    8 *In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.(this verse is meaning what they had already done in the past and perhaps were still doing at the time, thus not a prophecy of things they will do in the future instead)

    9 *Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.(This verse is meaning that God wanted them to do that at that time, IOW during the days they were all currently living in at the time)

    10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.(Obviously Ezekiel would have to shew them this while he was still physically alive, therefore he was to shew this to the house of Israel in his day and time, and not to a house of Israel well beyond his day and time)

    11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.(Obviously Ezekiel would have to shew them this while he was still physically alive, therefore he was to shew this to the house of Israel in his day and time, and not to a house of Israel well beyond his day and time)

    The above is basically the way the texts appear to be reading to me. How then can these things be referring to a future time instead, such as post the 2nd coming, when the texts indicate these things were applicable to the house of Israel at that time instead?


    As to the house of Israel meant above. Obviously it was meaning the house of Israel during Ezekiel's day and time. All of that house of Israel are long dead and gone by now. In order for this same house of Israel back then to fulfill these things in a future period of time, it requires they all rise from the dead first. There is indeed a rising of the dead at the 2nd coming, but it is a rising of the dead unto bodily immortality, IOW the rising of saints, the first resurrection(Rev 20:4-6).

    No way will anyone who puts on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming are then going to fulfill any of these prophecies in Ezekiel in the future. In order to fulfill these prophecies in Ezekiel, whether in the past or in the future still, it requires that the house of Israel meant has to be in a mortal state of being at the time. I see a lot of problems already, just by the above alone, if we somehow project these things into the future even though they appear to be applicable to them at the time in their day and age instead.

  9. #39

    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    We will have spiritual bodies, but the disciples interacted with Jesus and his spiritual body and it had a strong physical aspect to it. They could touch him, he could walk, eat fish, break bread. So even a spiritual city could have a physical aspect, just like a spiritual body has a physical aspect.

    Sure after the 1000 years when the New Jerusalem comes to earth, there is no temple and no sea in that new land surface on earth, yet we know that the foundations of the land (the earth's foundations) will last forever according to Psalm 104:5 and Micah 6:2. So our views on the "new land" should take into account that the original languages never meant a new planet.

    In Ezekiel 43 God promises that when he enters the rebuilt temple of the precise detailed dimensions of Ezekiel 40-42, that "this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet. This is where I will live among the Israelites forever."

    Sure the temple may cease, but God promises that his presence will be in that place forever, and he also promises that the foundations of the land /ground will last forever.

    To correctly divide the word, we need to learn to embrace every sentence in the Bible, not just our favorite concepts.
    You are correct in that we must learn to embrace every sentence in the Bible, and I might add, resist changing the meaning of those precious words.

  10. #40
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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    You are getting confused with the destiny of the saved, who are citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem. Yes we have this spiritual citizenship where the Lord dwells with us forever.

    On the other hand the Bible repeatedly describes the destiny of mortal nations on earth. Many verses give detailed descriptions of their destiny. It's nonsensical to allegorise all those descriptions and it is nonsensical to allegorise 90 verses of Ezekiel 40-42 which describe a detailed future temple to be rebuilt. Those surviving nations are mortal, and Israel is chief among them and shall have a future blessed temple as per Ezekiel 42.

    Its easy to brush off 90 verses of measurements and construction detail as symbols, symbols of what may I ask?
    There is no command to build it and there are no instructions on how to build it. It is so massive that it wouldn’t fit on the Temple Mount, not even close.

    “The Lord said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place where I will rest my feet. I will live here forever among the people of Israel. They and their kings will not defile my holy name any longer by their adulterous worship of other gods or by honoring the relics of their kings who have died.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *43:7‬ *NLT‬‬

    The Lord isn’t going to live forever in a temple built on the Earth.

  11. #41

    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Ezekiel 43:7 *And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

    8 *In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.(this verse is meaning what they had already done in the past and perhaps were still doing at the time, thus not a prophecy of things they will do in the future instead)

    9 *Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.(This verse is meaning that God wanted them to do that at that time, IOW during the days they were all currently living in at the time)

    10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.(Obviously Ezekiel would have to shew them this while he was still physically alive, therefore he was to shew this to the house of Israel in his day and time, and not to a house of Israel well beyond his day and time)

    11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.(Obviously Ezekiel would have to shew them this while he was still physically alive, therefore he was to shew this to the house of Israel in his day and time, and not to a house of Israel well beyond his day and time)

    The above is basically the way the texts appear to be reading to me. How then can these things be referring to a future time instead, such as post the 2nd coming, when the texts indicate these things were applicable to the house of Israel at that time instead?


    As to the house of Israel meant above. Obviously it was meaning the house of Israel during Ezekiel's day and time. All of that house of Israel are long dead and gone by now. In order for this same house of Israel back then to fulfill these things in a future period of time, it requires they all rise from the dead first. There is indeed a rising of the dead at the 2nd coming, but it is a rising of the dead unto bodily immortality, IOW the rising of saints, the first resurrection(Rev 20:4-6).

    No way will anyone who puts on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming are then going to fulfill any of these prophecies in Ezekiel in the future. In order to fulfill these prophecies in Ezekiel, whether in the past or in the future still, it requires that the house of Israel meant has to be in a mortal state of being at the time. I see a lot of problems already, just by the above alone, if we somehow project these things into the future even though they appear to be applicable to them at the time in their day and age instead.
    I will say that I read this anew and now lean heavily toward the temple described in Ezekiel as the heavenly temple where God dwelt at that time. This does satisfy my original question of why the temple described was known, but never built. They too, I now believe, had knowledge that it was the heavenly temple where God dwelt. I believe the same heavenly temple occupied by the martyrs of Rev. 6:9 and 20:4.

    I do not however agree with the concept of bodily immortality as that which perishes cannot be made unperishable, they would need to be changed, changed in the twinkling of an eye, into spirit.

  12. #42

    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by RockSolid View Post
    There is no command to build it and there are no instructions on how to build it. It is so massive that it wouldn’t fit on the Temple Mount, not even close.

    “The Lord said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place where I will rest my feet. I will live here forever among the people of Israel. They and their kings will not defile my holy name any longer by their adulterous worship of other gods or by honoring the relics of their kings who have died.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *43:7‬ *NLT‬‬

    The Lord isn’t going to live forever in a temple built on the Earth.
    I think this is right on.

  13. #43
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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by RockSolid View Post
    There is no command to build it and there are no instructions on how to build it. It is so massive that it wouldn’t fit on the Temple Mount, not even close.

    “The Lord said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place where I will rest my feet. I will live here forever among the people of Israel. They and their kings will not defile my holy name any longer by their adulterous worship of other gods or by honoring the relics of their kings who have died.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *43:7‬ *NLT‬‬

    The Lord isn’t going to live forever in a temple built on the Earth.
    There is a command to build it, just not in Ezekiel:

    Zec. 6:13 "Even he (the Branch of v. 12, therefore Christ after His return) shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both."

    You seem to think it is about the New Jerusalem in Ezekiel? If so, this is build by God:

    Heb. 11:10 "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God"
    "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
    a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
    rightly dividing the word of truth."
    2 Tim. 2:15


  14. #44

    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

    Ezekiels temple is this "holy place".

    The temple is the image of the beast (false God).
    Jesus was talking about the Holy Place He was looking at -at that time, in response to a question about the destruction of that temple.

  15. #45
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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes the church is a heavenly temple. And we are citizens of the heavenly New Jerusalem.

    Ezekiel 40-43 describes detailed dimensions over 90 verses, and a promise from God to indwell that temple. This detail is not convincingly contradicted by the fact that we are the temple. The 2 concepts are not mutually exclusive, they can co-exist.

    In addition to Ezekiel 40-43, we have 2 Thess 2, Rev 11:1-2, and Amos 9:11. Both the OT and NT are pointing towards a rebuilt temple. I believe it will be built in this age, yet sanctified in the Messianic Age.
    I agree that the concept of the Church as the Heavenly Temple and the notion of a future rebuilt physical temple are *not* mutually exclusive as ideas. But in terms of substance, I think they are. If the NT temple is *defined* exclusively as non-physical, then it does exclude the idea of a physical temple. So the question becomes, is the NT temple *exclusively defined* as non-physical?

    Heb 9.8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning.

    What this explicitly says is that the 1st temple, which was physical, corresponded to a time when the way into the Most Holy Place was still prohibited. The adjunct or logical outcome of this is that once Christ had made his own way into the Most Holy Place there was no longer any purpose for the physical temple to function. If it functioned at all, it was illegitimate. So you would have to argue that God plans to rebuild an illegitimate physical temple in the future?

    Again, the restoration of the temple in the time of ancient Persia was not only a legitimate temple, but it was endorsed and accompanied by many biblical prophecies. This supposed future physical temple is not only illegitimate, if real, but it has no corroboration from biblical prophecies. An incidental and isolated reference to the "temple" in 2 Thes 2 certainly is not in itself a prophecy of a *restored temple!* Nor is Rev 11's mention of the temple as symbolic of true worshipers in the NT an indication of a rebuilt OT temple with physical properties! You are simply making references to the word "temple" and then claiming they are prophecies of a *temple restoration.* This is false!

    Amos 9.11 certainly talks about the restoration of David's "fallen tabernacle," which is hardly a reference to a temple which had not even been built yet! And again, the prophecy in Eze 40-48 was given as a vision of the way things were *supposed to be under the Law,* projecting into the future a more perfect worship, described in the language of OT worship. It was not a prophecy of a future temple reconstruction. OT worship is clearly not going to happen in the NT era, since Christ fulfilled all that!

    Heb 9.23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

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