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Thread: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

  1. #46
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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    Jesus was talking about the Holy Place He was looking at -at that time, in response to a question about the destruction of that temple.
    Sure but the vision was future.

    Current temple

    24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

    Future end time event

    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    Even they knew it to be "end time" not 70AD. If all thought it to be 70 AD well they got that one wrong.

    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    The signs signifying thy coming did not happen in 70AD thus neither was it the end of the world.

  2. #47
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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    For those on this thread to consider...Ö.

    Ezekiel's temple is the measurement for the holy place in the kingdom of God.

    It will be copied and reconstructed made by hands, however there is still a original with the same measurements made without.

    So Ezekiel 40-48 is showing us a time when this temple will be occupied by the heathen then ultimately by the Godly.

  3. #48

    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Sure but the vision was future.


    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    And then added, "..this generation [those living then] will not pass from the scene until ALL these things take place."

  4. #49
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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    And then added, "..this generation [those living then] will not pass from the scene until ALL these things take place."
    "this generation" is the generation to see all these things. Not simply this generation whom he was speaking.....

    Did the generation in 70AD see all these things? NO. So then "this generation" did not mean those whom Paul was speaking.

  5. #50
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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    The Ark and the other Temple furnishings were hidden by Jeremiah, as recorded in 2 Maccabees 2:4-8.....hidden in a cave near Mt Nebo. In the latter days the Lord will show His people where they are and they will adorn the new Temple.

    Many prophesies confirm the new Temple, to be built by the Lord's faithful Christian peoples, His Israelites from every race, nation and language.
    After Jesus Returns, people from all the nations will come to worship King Jesus there. Zechariah 14:16-21

  6. #51

    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    "this generation" is the generation to see all these things. Not simply this generation whom he was speaking.....

    Did the generation in 70AD see all these things? NO. So then "this generation" did not mean those whom Paul was speaking.
    Dead wrong. "This" is a determiner which implies that current generation. If another generation is meant it would say "that" generation.

    For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
    28 “Truly I tell you, SOME WHO ARE STANDING HERE will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matt 16:27-28

    And this is repeated in Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:26-27. There is a lot more that speak of the imminent nature of the end times in ancient times.

    Now tell me that "some who are standing here" doesn't mean those who were standing there.

    Did the generation in 70 AD see all these things? Well, not the way you want them.

  7. #52
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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Lets look at all of the times Jesus used the term this generation in the book of Matthew

    Jesus used the term this generation in the book of Matthew in Ch 23:36

    36Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

    Matthew 24:34
    34Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    Mt 11:16
    16To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others

    Mt 12:39
    39 He answered, ďA wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

    MT12: 41-42.
    41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomonís wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.


    Mt 23:36 .
    36Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

    Why would Jesus confuse them by using the term this generation in Matthew 24 if he meant a different generation as he meant this actual generation in those other verses?

  8. #53

    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    What His disciples saw just after He'd said that, was His "Transfiguration" (on the "Mount of Transfiguration"), which is a picture/snapshot (so to speak) of His Second Coming glory, and which Matt17:9 calls "the vision"). This is what they saw.

  9. #54

    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    [quoting Wm Kelly on the Olivet Discourse, esp in Luke 21]

    "But, this is not the only point of interest in this appendix to the prophecy. For the Lord has given us the positive proof, by the way in which verse 32 stands here, that "this generation" cannot mean a mere chronological space of thirty or even one hundred years, for it is brought in after the running out of Gentile times and the coming of the Son of man with power and glory, events still unfulfilled. Its force is moral; not exactly the nation of Israel but that Christ-rejecting race which then refused their Messiah as they do still. This will go on till all these solemn threats of judgment are accomplished. It is profitable to remark that here, not in doctrine or in practice only, but in these unfoldings of the future, the Lord pledges the impossibility of failing in His words. The Lord does not say that this generation "shall not pass away till the temple is destroyed or the city taken," but till all be fulfilled. Now, He had introduced the subsequent treading down of Jerusalem to the end of Israel's trials at His appearing, and He declares that this generation shall not pass away till then; as indeed it is only then grace will form a new [future] generation, the generation [yet] to come. The more we hold fast the continuity of the stream of the prophecy, as distinguished from the crisis in Matthew and Mark, the greater will be seen to be the importance of this remark."

    --William Kelly, Luke 21 Commentary

    [end quoting; bold, underline, and brackets mine]


    [also, same source]

    "522a The "times of the nations" run from Nebuchadnezzar to the Apocalyptic head of the revived Roman empire (Revelation 13:1-10). It is a phrase to be distinguished from "fulness of the Gentiles" in Romans 11:25, which refers to the completion of the Church."

    [end quoting]



    [hoping no editing is required in this post ]


  10. #55

    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    ^ EDIT to add: the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" speaks of that which started in 606/605bc (think: Neb's dream/statue/image, with Neb as "head of gold") and runs to the END of the future tribulation period (Lk21:24b / Rev11:2) and represents "Gentile domination over Israel" (NOT "the Church age"); it is indeed entirely distinct from the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles" (Rom11:25)

  11. #56
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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post

    For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
    28 “Truly I tell you, SOME WHO ARE STANDING HERE will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matt 16:27-28

    And this is repeated in Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:26-27. There is a lot more that speak of the imminent nature of the end times in ancient times.

    Now tell me that "some who are standing here" doesn't mean those who were standing there.
    Did some whom he was speaking stand in this place and see the Son of Man coming and then died? Of course not. So NO it is not mean those standing there at that time but of a future time when there will be some standing in this location which will see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom and will taste death.

    If you are claiming Christ himself spoke of the first century and then the events did not happen as he predicted (which they did not) you make Christ a lunatic and a liar.

  12. #57

    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Lets look at all of the times Jesus used the term this generation in the book of Matthew

    Jesus used the term this generation in the book of Matthew in Ch 23:36

    36Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

    Matthew 24:34
    34Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    Mt 11:16
    16To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others

    Mt 12:39
    39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

    MT12: 41-42.
    41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.


    Mt 23:36 .
    36Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

    Why would Jesus confuse them by using the term this generation in Matthew 24 if he meant a different generation as he meant this actual generation in those other verses?
    You are of course right. The theme is repeated constantly and any attempt to alter the meaning seems to be based purely on the assumption the scriptures were not fulfilled as promised, and therefore must be yet to be fulfilled. The contradiction between what scripture said and the lack of the expected outcome must then be rationalized by altering the meaning of scripture to allow a different outcome. This instead of examining the original assumption itself.

    I have often wondered why the scriptures abruptly end. We are not told what happened to Peter, or Paul or anybody else except for James. Acts ends with Paul in house arrest in Rome. Peter, we don't even know where he was but last read of him still in Jerusalem. These missing pieces were filled in with myth and legend in the third century, but are not in scripture.

    And why, since Jesus spoke specifically about the destruction of the temple on several occasions, is that very destruction not mentioned in scripture after it actually happened? It is a real fulfillment, and yet nothing.

    If John of Patmos wrote Revelation after the destruction of the temple, as some believe, why did he not mention it?

    The silence is deafening. But you can't write about things if your no longer there. Are these missing pieces evidence of an ancient rapture?

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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    You are correct in that we must learn to embrace every sentence in the Bible, and I might add, resist changing the meaning of those precious words.
    Exactly, so why then did the translators say "new earth" when it means "new land". The foundation of the land/ground last forever so there will never be a new planet, just new ground.

    People don't seem to be interested in the fact that they did not have a word for planet earth in the Bible, they understood the universe like this :

    SKY (clouds, stars, sun, moon, blue sky)
    GROUND (soil, countries, continents, land)
    OCEAN
    UNDERWORLD

    There was no word in the Bible for planet earth, the planet will always exist because the foundation of the ground lasts forever. At the second coming there will be new land/ground, and 1000 years later there will be new land again

    Precisely as the Bible states in Ezekiel 43, God will dwell in that place, Mount Zion forever, starting from the day he enters that Ezekiel temple among earthly mortals.

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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Ezekiel 43:7 *And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

    8 *In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.(this verse is meaning what they had already done in the past and perhaps were still doing at the time, thus not a prophecy of things they will do in the future instead)

    9 *Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.(This verse is meaning that God wanted them to do that at that time, IOW during the days they were all currently living in at the time)

    10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.(Obviously Ezekiel would have to shew them this while he was still physically alive, therefore he was to shew this to the house of Israel in his day and time, and not to a house of Israel well beyond his day and time)

    11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.(Obviously Ezekiel would have to shew them this while he was still physically alive, therefore he was to shew this to the house of Israel in his day and time, and not to a house of Israel well beyond his day and time)

    The above is basically the way the texts appear to be reading to me. How then can these things be referring to a future time instead, such as post the 2nd coming, when the texts indicate these things were applicable to the house of Israel at that time instead?


    As to the house of Israel meant above. Obviously it was meaning the house of Israel during Ezekiel's day and time. All of that house of Israel are long dead and gone by now. In order for this same house of Israel back then to fulfill these things in a future period of time, it requires they all rise from the dead first. There is indeed a rising of the dead at the 2nd coming, but it is a rising of the dead unto bodily immortality, IOW the rising of saints, the first resurrection(Rev 20:4-6).

    No way will anyone who puts on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming are then going to fulfill any of these prophecies in Ezekiel in the future. In order to fulfill these prophecies in Ezekiel, whether in the past or in the future still, it requires that the house of Israel meant has to be in a mortal state of being at the time. I see a lot of problems already, just by the above alone, if we somehow project these things into the future even though they appear to be applicable to them at the time in their day and age instead.
    At the second coming the church is resurrected, we are citizens of the New Jerusalem. We never need further sacrifice because we trusted the sacrifice of Jesus. Forever cleansed.

    Of those left behind, those mortal nations are judged and some survive (Israel), and some are destroyed (Edom). Israel is chief among the surviving nations and their temple is sanctified, and ritual cleansing occurs to that nation of mortals.


    The 12 apostles rule over the 12 tribes (Matt 19:28), and the martyrs (Rev 20) and the church (eg Rev 2, 1Cor 6:1-4) will rule over the nations.

    This explains the contrast between grace and trust in Jesus in this age, and the introduction of cleansing rituals to mortal nations in the next age.

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    Re: Ezekiel's Temple Vision

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree that the concept of the Church as the Heavenly Temple and the notion of a future rebuilt physical temple are *not* mutually exclusive as ideas. But in terms of substance, I think they are. If the NT temple is *defined* exclusively as non-physical, then it does exclude the idea of a physical temple. So the question becomes, is the NT temple *exclusively defined* as non-physical?

    Heb 9.8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning.

    What this explicitly says is that the 1st temple, which was physical, corresponded to a time when the way into the Most Holy Place was still prohibited. The adjunct or logical outcome of this is that once Christ had made his own way into the Most Holy Place there was no longer any purpose for the physical temple to function. If it functioned at all, it was illegitimate. So you would have to argue that God plans to rebuild an illegitimate physical temple in the future?

    Again, the restoration of the temple in the time of ancient Persia was not only a legitimate temple, but it was endorsed and accompanied by many biblical prophecies. This supposed future physical temple is not only illegitimate, if real, but it has no corroboration from biblical prophecies. An incidental and isolated reference to the "temple" in 2 Thes 2 certainly is not in itself a prophecy of a *restored temple!* Nor is Rev 11's mention of the temple as symbolic of true worshipers in the NT an indication of a rebuilt OT temple with physical properties! You are simply making references to the word "temple" and then claiming they are prophecies of a *temple restoration.* This is false!

    Amos 9.11 certainly talks about the restoration of David's "fallen tabernacle," which is hardly a reference to a temple which had not even been built yet! And again, the prophecy in Eze 40-48 was given as a vision of the way things were *supposed to be under the Law,* projecting into the future a more perfect worship, described in the language of OT worship. It was not a prophecy of a future temple reconstruction. OT worship is clearly not going to happen in the NT era, since Christ fulfilled all that!

    Heb 9.23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
    I see no reason for 90 verses of precise detail and exact measurements in Ezekiel 40-42 to be symbols. Can you give any reason for that precise detail?

    The context of Ezekiel 40-48 is a renewed Israel in a world where life-giving rivers flow out from Jerusalem, matching the river in Zech 14 on the day of the Lord, and matching the descriptions of a restored and blessed Israel from the Day of the Lord.

    Even though we are the spiritual temple, I see no reason to deny a physical temple in the next age. When prophecy contains a lot of detail it makes more sense to accept the literal fulfiment than to start seeing multiple symbols in the detail of 9 entire chapters in the Bible.

    You say that the prophecy in Eze 40-48 was given as a vision of the way things were supposed to be under the Law, yet the wording God uses describes events that are going to occur, not events that were supposed to be.
    .

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