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Thread: The Preterist Gap

  1. #46
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Regardless of how you do or don’t take the 3.5 years related to the 70 weeks, the bigger issue to me is the inconsistency of how Premillennielism doesn’t apply the attributes of 9:24 within the 70 ‘literal’ weeks either.

    Even if the Premill Israel 70th week gap theory is taken at face value, at the end of the 70th week, at Armageddon and Christ’s return, Premill still has another 1000 years on top of Israel’s already completed 70 weeks, that the items of 9:24 (that belong to the 70th week), are still not fulfilled.

    Premill ends up pushing the final fulfillment of the items of 9:24 out to the GWT judgment, when sin is finally ended for Israel.
    Don't you have the same problem if the 70 weeks have already been fulfilled? That would mean there have been 2000 years since that time, and look where we are now, where Israel is now. So using your arguments above, why should it be like this for going on 2000 years if the 70 weeks have already been entirely fulfilled?

  2. #47
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:...this is meaning the cross. We therefore are already told in verse 26 as to when He goes to the cross. Why would we need to be reminded yet again in verse 27?


    In verse 26 there are two princes, and that there are also the people of one of the princes. It is the latter prince that the pronouns in verse 27 have to be referring to.

    If we consider Rev 11:1-2, it tends to identify the people meant in verse 26.

    Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
    2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    It would be meaning the Gentiles. The 42 months they tread the holy city under foot, that 42 months is meaning the reign of the beast in Rev 13. That would make the prince that shall come, in Dan 9:26, to be meaning this same beast.

    Even though I'm Premil, I don't take the holy city nor the temple in Rev 11:1-2, in the literal sense. And if this connects to Dan 9:26-27 like I'm thinking, the city and sanctuary in verse 26 is not meaning in the literal sense either.

  3. #48
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    By reading the teachings of Paul regarding the man of sin (son of perdition), seems to imply all this is the Lord's doing:

    2 Thessalonians 2:
    7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


    * And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: - Christ
    * and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation - Christ
    * and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. - Christ

    I'm not seeing your point, the fact nothing in 2 Thess 2 has even been fulfilled yet. And like I already pointed out, regardless that some might disagree, there is nothing in Dan 9:27 that happens outside of the 70th week.

  4. #49

    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Why anyone would think Christ did that, that is beyond me?
    By reading the teachings of Paul regarding the man of sin (son of perdition), seems to imply all this is the Lord's doing:

    2 Thessalonians 2:
    7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


    * And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: - Christ
    * and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, - Christ
    * and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation - Christ
    * and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. - Christ

  5. #50

    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I'm not seeing your point, the fact nothing in 2 Thess 2 has even been fulfilled yet. And like I already pointed out, regardless that some might disagree, there is nothing in Dan 9:27 that happens outside of the 70th week.
    Jesus himself made reference to the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet in Matthew 24:15

    "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand"

    From that point, his discussion is regading the end of time and signs of his coming.

    So the last week of the prophecy cannot have been fulfilled yet.

  6. #51
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    By reading the teachings of Paul regarding the man of sin (son of perdition), seems to imply all this is the Lord's doing:

    2 Thessalonians 2:
    7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


    * And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: - Christ
    * and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, - Christ
    * and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation - Christ
    * and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. - Christ
    You already posted that though. I already indicted I failed to see your point, then gave a reason why.

  7. #52
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post

    So the last week of the prophecy cannot have been fulfilled yet.
    We are at least in agreement here. I don't know why we are not on the same page then?

  8. #53

    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    You already posted that though. I already indicted I failed to see your point, then gave a reason why.
    Yes, I accidentally deleted the 1st post.

    I'm trying to point out, if Jesus is discussing with his disciples regarding the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet in Matthew 24:15, letting them know when they shall see the abomination of desolation, then whos readth, let him understand. Then you know for a fact the prophecy in Daniel 9:27 has not been fulfilled at the time when Jesus discussed it.

    "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand"

    Then Apostle Paul discussed the same event regarding man of sin (2 Thess 2) and made it clear that this an end time event prior to the coming of the Lord who will be comsumed at the brightness of his coming.

    Therefore, 70th week has not been fulfilled yet.

  9. #54
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Yes, I accidentally deleted the 1st post.

    I'm trying to point out, if Jesus is discussing with his disciples regarding the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet in Matthew 24:15, letting them know when they shall see the abomination of desolation, then whos readth, let him understand. Then you know for a fact the prophecy in Daniel 9:27 has not been fulfilled at the time when Jesus discussed it.

    "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand"

    Then Apostle Paul discussed the same event regarding man of sin (2 Thess 2) and made it clear that this an end time event prior to the coming of the Lord who will be comsumed at the brightness of his coming.

    Therefore, 70th week has not been fulfilled yet.
    I don't disagree with any of this. Could you then further explain what you meant by the following? "and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, - Christ"

    How are you applying that part to Christ if you are concluding the 70th week is yet future?

  10. #55

    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    We are at least in agreement here. I don't know why we are not on the same page then?
    I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but in your previous post, you stated:


    "Every single thing mentioned in this verse involves the 70th week. There is nothing in this verse that happens outside of the 70th week.

    If one concludes there are no gaps in the 70 weeks, and that if one concludes Christ is meant in verse 27, and that if...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...is meaning His death on the cross, the remainder of that verse has to be fulfilled within 3.5 years of the cross in that case. Otherwise that places a gap in the 70th week itself."

    So then I gather you do believe there was a gap in the 70 week? If so, disregard my post.

  11. #56
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but in your previous post, you stated:


    "Every single thing mentioned in this verse involves the 70th week. There is nothing in this verse that happens outside of the 70th week.

    If one concludes there are no gaps in the 70 weeks, and that if one concludes Christ is meant in verse 27, and that if...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...is meaning His death on the cross, the remainder of that verse has to be fulfilled within 3.5 years of the cross in that case. Otherwise that places a gap in the 70th week itself."

    So then I gather you do believe there was a gap in the 70 week? If so, disregard my post.
    I don't believe there is a gap in the 70th week. But I do believe there is a gap though, that being between the 69th and 70th week. Basically then, in my view, everything in verse 27 is fulfilled by the AC, IOW the beast in Rev 13. And since I am not taking these things in a literal sense to begin with, such as a literal city, a literal temple, the sacrifices that he causes to cease, it's not meaning animal sacrificing that might take place in a temple. It's basically meaning what Christ did at the cross, the AC causes to cease in the midst of the week. IOW, the beast forces everyone to worship him instead, thus making Christianity against the law. And the ones who refuse, they must be killed then.

  12. #57
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Regarding the 70th week or 7 years, based on other scriptures in the bible, I do not see how this period of time can be fulfilled in 70AD.

    Below are references that indicate this is a time period at a minimal of 3-1/2 years prior to the end of time. (I posted the same response on another thread.)

    Point #1
    By 70AD, the gospel of the kingdom had not been preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations.
    Matthew 24:14
    And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


    Point #2
    Based on other passages by Jesus, as well as other apostles, Jesus was referring to a period of time near the end of time and refers to the passage in Daniel as a time in the future.
    Matthew 24:15
    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand


    Point #3
    Clearly Jesus was referring to the time of his 2nd coming and not 70AD. He also places the sign of his coming immediately after the tribulation of those days.
    Matthew 24:
    27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    Point #4
    Then Jesus concludes by say that this is (1) generation in which all will be fulfilled. And goes on to say that no man knows the day and the hour. Only my Father knows. Therefore, the time could not have been 70AD.
    Matthew 24:
    34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


    Point #5
    Apostle Paul refers to the same event as Jesus, regarding the abomination of desolation and gives reference to the man of sin (son of perdition). And later states that the Lord will consume with the brightness of his coming.
    2 Thessalonians 2:
    3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    I didn't claim that it was fulfilled in 70AD

  13. #58
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    A worm transverses a multicolored carpet. Sometimes he is in a blue area, then he is a red area and then an orange area. He wonders why the colors change. But then he is metamorphosed into a butterfly and flies above the carpet. Suddenly, all the diverse colors make sense. It is a carpet with an intricate but beautiful picture. So let us fly above Daniel 9 and above the whole Bible to get a picture.

    God made man to be occupier and ruler of this earth. And He made man to be a vessel so that He could dwell in man on earth. So God's dwelling on earth is connected with His proxy, man, ruling for Him. But due to man becoming defiled, God must wait. But anon, after some 2,500 years God has a dwelling on earth. Man is still profane and defiled so God, in order to reach His goal, lives WITH men in a Temple - His House - His dwelling on earth. And while He dwells in that dwelling, the surrounding earth, Canaan at first and later Judea, are invincible to His rule and presence. Israel's occupation of Canaan is subject to God being WITH them. Now, it takes but a few seconds to realize that the 70 weeks of Daniel are about TWO things. Israelites occupying the Land, and God's dwelling place in their midst. The whole prophecy we discuss here is about:
    1. building the House of God after the captivity
    2. Israel's moral condition in order to be a worthy host to that God

    The Chapter begins with a confession by Daniel as to why (1) Israel is in captivity, (2) Israel could not maintain the Land of Canaan, and (3) God is no longer with them, His House being "DESOLATE" (v.17). While Daniel is confessing and pleading with God, Gabriel appears with a message. It is this; "Daniel, your prayers are heard and my promises to Israel are not forgotten. I have set aside 70 sevens to achieve a Fence, or Wall around my House, and to restore David's Kingdom again with Israel finished with Law-breaking and righteous." Without going into all the proofs, the "sevens" must be blocks of 7 years because the first matter, that of fencing the house of God with a Siege Wall took 49 years in history. And from the time that the Siege Wall was in place till Messiah was murdered, took 434 years in history.

    But the prophecy is complicated by the "GAP" we now discuss. So we must revert to the context again to understand it. The whole prophecy rests on God's House and Israel's moral condition. And in the middle of God's working with Israel, they upped an murdered the Sent One, their Messiah- Jesus. So God STOPS THE CLOCK. Jesus, just before His murder, advises Israel that "YOUR house is left desolate" (Matt.23:38). Not only is not called "God's House" any more, but it is left empty. Israel's moral condition is such that God again forsakes them. And the intervening time is not counted by God IN HIS DEALINGS WITH "DANIEL'S PEOPLE". The question is, do we have a precedent for this behavior on God's part? WE DO!

    During the time of the Judges, when Israel went a Law-breaking, God caused them to be ruled by Gentiles. The total time that Israel was under Gentile rule, if we allow parallel rule by more than one Gentile king, was 93 years. Now this might seem insignificant at first, but if we stick to the context of God's House, we find a strange thing. In 1st Kings Chapter 6 the time given from Israel exiting Egypt to the start of work of building the Temple is 480 years. But in Acts Chapter 7, Paul, expounding Israel's crisis, gives some figures, that when added together, give this time as 573 years. Scoffers of God's Word are gleeful. The Bible contradicts itself they say! But no! The figure given in 1st Kings 6 does not include the 93 years of Gentile Government. That is: IN PROPHECY, GOD TENDS NOT TO COUNT THE YEARS OF ISRAEL'S YEARS UNDER FOREIGN RULE.

    On the day He was murdered, the Isreali people (Daniel's People) were posed a question by the Gentile governor. It was; "WHO IS YOUR KING?". With one voice Israel chose CAESAR! (Jn.19:12-15). And so the day that Messiah was cut off, GOD STOPPED THE CLOCK IN REGARD TO ISRAEL. Now, seeing that Israel has the Covenant of Promise PLUS the promises of the prophets that they will one day occupy Canaan in righteousness, there must be a time when God starts the clock again. When is that day? The answer is, look at the context of the prophecy. It must have something to do with God's House. THE CLOCK STARTS AGAIN WHEN A HOUSE FOR GOD IS BUILT IN JERUSALEM. With the building of God's House again in Jerusalem Israel can keep the Law again - SO THE CLOCK STARTS.

    But after three and a half years Israel AGAIN DECIDE ON THEIR MESSIAH. They are faced with a choice again - Emmanuel or a Roman king - a CAESAR. And this CAESAR - a Prince of the nation who destroyed both city and Temple in 70 AD convinces Israel to INSTALL HIM AS THEIR KING AND GOD IN GOD'S NEWLY BUILT HOUSE. The question is, does God stop the clock again. This time He does not. Why? Because HIS CHOICE OF KING - the Son of David, and His army, are ready to CONTEND. The LEGITIMATE KING, JESUS, IS NEARBY - IN THE CLOUDS. He is just about to finish judging the Church at His "traveling throne" - the BEMA, and then, with a grand show of power and pomp, will enter His City and take command of it. Then, with His army, He proceeds about 70 miles west of Jerusalem to Megiddo in the Valley of Jezreel and faces off with the combined Gentile power on earth. The last three and a half years of the 70th seven are retained by God to show His displeasure at (1) Israel for choosing a CAESAR again, and (2) His displeasure at the rest of mankind for rejecting the Jesus of the Gospel and taking an evil Gentile Caesar. These three and a half years is the time of God's WRATH on the earth. "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:21)

    Of course, the butterfly cannot see all the detail from above, so I have shown the grand picture without the detail. Some will reject it, and some will be helped. But the context of Daniel 9 is about God's House and Israel's moral condition. Daniel 9:24 says;

    "Seventy SEVENS are determined upon (1) thy people and (2) upon thy holy city, to (3) finish the transgression (moral), and (4) to make an end of sin (moral), and (5) to make reconciliation for iniquity (moral), and (6) to bring in everlasting righteousness (moral), and (7) to seal up the vision and prophecy (of God's desolate House), and (8) to anoint the most Holy (God's choice of King for Canaan)."

  14. #59

    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I don't disagree with any of this. Could you then further explain what you meant by the following? "and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, - Christ"

    How are you applying that part to Christ if you are concluding the 70th week is yet future?
    These are the end of time events, all ordained of God. The sacrifice and the oblation to cease will most likely be a result of the killing of the 2 witnesses. This will end their ministry and the remaining blinded Jews will be brought back in accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior. Once they are dead, the Beast will have full power. This is the beginning of the 3-1/2 year period of the man of sin. After this period, the Lord will consume him with the brightness of his coming.

    But not only this, sin will be so bad, that all that is holy will be defiled by the wicked. And the Lord allows this, and shall send them strong delusion to believe a lie, due to their unbelief.

    2 Thess 2:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

  15. #60
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    These are the end of time events, all ordained of God. The sacrifice and the oblation to cease will most likely be a result of the killing of the 2 witnesses. This will end their ministry and the remaining blinded Jews will be brought back in accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior. Once they are dead, the Beast will have full power. This is the beginning of the 3-1/2 year period of the man of sin. After this period, the Lord will consume him with the brightness of his coming.

    But not only this, sin will be so bad, that all that is holy will be defiled by the wicked. And the Lord allows this, and shall send them strong delusion to believe a lie, due to their unbelief.

    2 Thess 2:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    In that case, perhaps we're more on the same page than I thought. I don't disagree with any of the above. Pretty much how I see some of it as well.

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