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Thread: The Preterist Gap

  1. #106
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Its not illogical when we realise that one Prince is Christ and the other prince is Titus.
    It's illogical if there are not supposed to be any gaps in the 70 weeks, but that all of verse 27 pertains to the 70th week. That's a contradiction, thus illogical. There is zero reason to conclude anything in verse 27 involves a period of time outside of the 70th week. You only need it to mean that because you know you can't apply the part after the middle of the week to that of Christ's death. So your interpretation then changes the goal post, only some of verse 27 pertains to the 70th week, rather than all of it pertains to the 70th week.

  2. #107
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    What you are saying stems from futurism's idea of a last-days abomination in a rebuilt future temple. But you need to reconsider what the "overspreading" abomination actually is. It is the continuance of animal sacrifice after it was supposed to stop!

    Some Preterists make the same mistake by assuming a gap followed by a Roman abomination. But the abomination happened when the Jews defied Christ's "It is finished", stitched up the curtain, repaired the earthquake-damaged temple, and recommenced their atoning sacrifices.

    So, the answer to your question is quite simple. The fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple did not take place within the actual seventy weeks; the prophet was simply providing information of the aftermath to the weeks in order to explain what the eventual outcome would be.
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  3. #108
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Its not illogical when we realise that one Prince is Christ and the other prince is Titus.
    If only you could admit that all of verse 27 pertains to the 70th week, you would then know without a doubt that your interpretation cannot work whatsoever if you have Christ fulfilling anything in verse 27. Someone such as DurbanDude has allegedly found a way around this problem. Both your interpretation and his interpretation place a gap after the middle of the week in verse 27. His interpretation still has the entire verse pertaining to the 70th week, yours doesn't. He at least realizes all of verse 27 pertains to the 70th week, thus admits it via his interpretation of that verse. You OTOH won't even admit that all of verse 27 pertains to the 70th week. Why should anyone think your interpretation might be correct then?

  4. #109
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    To clarify, here is how I read Dan 9:26,27 (N.K.J.Version, bracketed notes added)


    After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for himself; and the people (Roman troops in ad 70) of the prince who is to come (Titus, a roman general and prince) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

    He (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after his revealing) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (temple curtain torn) And on the wing of abominations (ongoing sacrifice an abomination) shall be one who makes desolate, (Titus destroys temple) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. (judgement on Jerusalem)
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  5. #110
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    DurbanDude, I have been rethinking your interpretation of verse 27. Currently I still don't agree with your interpretation of that verse, yet I have now decided that it was wrong of me to insist your interpretation is illogical based on you placing a gap after the middle of the 70th week. There is some logic to your interpretation, the more I think about it, the fact you have the entire verse pertaining to the 70th week. But I wasn't wrong to insist that it is indeed illogical if anyone not seeing any gaps in the 70 weeks whatsoever, then having Christ fulfill the middle of the 70th week, then having the remainder of that verse referring to a period of time post the 70 weeks, thus a gap. The reason it's illogical is because all of verse 27 pertains to the 70th week. Therefore if Christ is meant, the part after the middle of the week would then need to be fulfilled within 3.5 years of Christ's death in order for there to be no gaps in the 70 weeks.

  6. #111
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    To clarify, here is how I read Dan 9:26,27 (N.K.J.Version, bracketed notes added)


    After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for himself; and the people (Roman troops in ad 70) of the prince who is to come (Titus, a roman general and prince) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

    He (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after his revealing) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (temple curtain torn) And on the wing of abominations (ongoing sacrifice an abomination) shall be one who makes desolate, (Titus destroys temple) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. (judgement on Jerusalem)
    But if verse 27 only involves the 70th week, and that your argument is that there are no gaps in the 70 weeks, your interpretation here is then a contradiction of your position. Keep in mind though, this is if verse 27 only pertains to the 70th week, all of it IOW. Maybe you are not convinced, but many of us are though, that every single thing mentioned in verse 27 pertains to the 70th week.

  7. #112
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Anyone reading the OT after what has been revealed in the NT, and has been revealed by Christ's first coming, would know from the prophecies in the OT that God stuck with the same plan, thus wasn't subject to changing plans if Israel did this, or if Israel didn't do this, etc.

    Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

    Here is an example of what I am meaning. Clearly Christ is meant here. In order for Him to fulfill this, this requires a coming, a leaving, and then a returning. and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked....this is what He does upon return. This is the same prophecy found in Rev 19. God was never subject to changing His plans based on what Israel would or would not do.
    God knows the Future, God knows His offer will bee rejected, that doesn't mean God's heart did not desire the former. God also did not desire to kill mankind with a flood, but it had to happen. Jesus tells us Gods heart was to gather Israel unto himself, but they would not.

    Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

    39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

    Jesus tells us what the original plan was here, we should know this, God in scriptures tells us He is going to call on a STRANGE PEOPLE because Israel would not OBEY and walk after His ways. God's desire was to bring the world to Christ via Israel, instead he brought the Savior to the world via the Gentiles.

    Gods desire and his understanding of what mankind will do are 2 different things.

  8. #113
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    God knows the Future, God knows His offer will bee rejected, that doesn't mean God's heart did not desire the former. God also did not desire to kill mankind with a flood, but it had to happen. Jesus tells us Gods heart was to gather Israel unto himself, but they would not.

    Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

    39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

    Jesus tells us what the original plan was here, we should know this, God in scriptures tells us He is going to call on a STRANGE PEOPLE because Israel would not OBEY and walk after His ways. God's desire was to bring the world to Christ via Israel, instead he brought the Savior to the world via the Gentiles.

    Gods desire and his understanding of what mankind will do are 2 different things.
    I have no objections you understanding it like that. I didn't realize that's what you were ultimately meaning in your other post I was addressing.

  9. #114
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    What you are saying stems from futurism's idea of a last-days abomination in a rebuilt future temple. But you need to reconsider what the "overspreading" abomination actually is. It is the continuance of animal sacrifice after it was supposed to stop!

    Some Preterists make the same mistake by assuming a gap followed by a Roman abomination. But the abomination happened when the Jews defied Christ's "It is finished", stitched up the curtain, repaired the earthquake-damaged temple, and recommenced their atoning sacrifices.

    So, the answer to your question is quite simple. The fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple did not take place within the actual seventy weeks; the prophet was simply providing information of the aftermath to the weeks in order to explain what the eventual outcome would be.
    As to me though, I don't even remotely think there will be a rebuilt temple in the future, where animal sacrificing then resumes, and that the AC sitting in the alleged rebuilt temple then places an abomination in the temple, thus causing the animal sacrificing to cease. Though there was a time decades ago I did take those things in a literal sense. Since then I have concluded there is no logic to it if taken in the literal sense, that assuming these things are fulfilled in the future.. But I do still think the 70th week is fulfilled in the future, but not in a literal sense where it will involve the literal city of Jerusalem, a rebuilt temple there, and the Jews living there. The reign of the beast in Rev 13 is what precedes the 2nd coming. The beast opposes the church and not unbelieving Jews living in Jerusalem instead.

  10. #115
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    What questions am I not answering?



    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    You didn't address my concerns regarding the atonement for sin.

    You have Jesus being cut off after 69 weeks correct?

    Do you believe Jesus had made atonement for sin when he was cut off?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    You didn't address my post and answer my questions.

    How many weeks were decreed for the atonement of iniquity? 69 or 70 ?

    Was it Jesus death and resurrection that secured it?

    ……...………...……….
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  11. #116
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Even though you too have a gap after the middle of the week, as does everyone who sees Jesus fulfilling verse 27, you at least have all of that verse pertaining to the 70th week. All of these others only have some of verse 27 pertaining to the 70th week, while the remainder of it they have being fulfilled post the 70 weeks.

    No doubt whatsoever, they couldn't possibly be correct about verse 27 if they conclude only some of it, rather than all of it, is fulfilled during the 70th week. Shouldn't this be telling you that by putting Christ in verse 27 it makes verse 27 illogical?

    The 42 month reign of the beast is what precedes the 2nd coming. But when I look at Rev 13 though, I'm not getting any impression from the texts that Jesus is confirming the covenant with the Jews during the entire 3.5 year reign of the beast, or even at all. The beast is waging war against the saints, IOW against the church. The focus at this point is not the Jews, but is the church. Think Revelation 12:14-17. Verse 17 is during the reign of the beast.
    Thanks for seeing the possibilities.
    I'm pretty confident of a Jewish revival during the GT, due to a combination of Rev 11, Rev 12 and Romans 11:25

    The great victory of our testimony as described in Rev 12 is obviously the gospel preached to all nations, nothing else fits. Thus the nations have reached their fullness and then there are 3.5 years left of Jewish protection and the two witnesses in Jerusalem during the GT.

    Romans 11:25 confirms that after the fullness of the Gentiles, is a special period of salvation for Israel

  12. #117
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post









    ……...………...……….
    In the meantime....Jeff, let's get on the same page here for a moment anyway. For the sake of argument only, let's assume that you agreed that all of verse 27 involves the 70th week. IOW none of it involves a time period before or after the 70th week. Would you still place Christ fulfilling the middle of the week, then insisting your interpretation of verse 27 is correct? Recall what I said in the following, if that was the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    The context of this verse is the 70th week. If Christ is meant in this verse and that there are no gaps in the 70 weeks, this verse needs to be understood like such then.

    And Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for seven years: and in the midst of the seven years he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the end of the seven years, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Good luck with that interpretation being valid.

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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post









    ……...………...……….
    Does anything I submitted in post #82 address any of that?

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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    I can see no mention of an imposter in verse 27, but I do know what you are referring to, and I see no implied new temple. My feelings are that these are themes added to allow them to be combined with other prophecy.
    As far as the list of 6 conclusions expected at the end as revealed by Daniel, the first four are actually saying similar things. Were they realized in the first century?

    “22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification and the outcome, eternal life.” (Romans 6:22 NASV)

    18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.” (2 Corinthians 5:18-19 NASB)

    Was the vision and prophecy of the Old Testament sealed until the end? 25“...according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith...” (Romans 16:25-26 NASB)

    Was the most Holy anointed? 9“For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians 2:9-11 NASB)
    But the prophecy of Daniel 9 is to "DANIEL'S PEOPLE". The verses you have brought apply to the Church.

  15. #120
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    Re: The Preterist Gap


    ……….…………………………………..
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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