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Thread: The Preterist Gap

  1. #91
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The short answer is;
    1. How do we fit two men into the grammar?
    2. How could our Lord "confirm" (strengthen - lit. Heb.) the Covenant if He is dead?

    And in my posting #13 I wrote ...



    You can at once see that the actions of the "HE" could not, and would not, be accomplished by our Lord. The whole of verse 27 concerns the "prince" of the people who destroyed Jerusalem. Our Lord is "cut off" at the hind part of the 69th week. He is in heaven for the dawn of the 70th week because He returns from the clouds after the 70th Week in Matthew 24. But the most powerful proof is in the meaning of "confirming the Covenant". How can we identify which Covenant he strengthens or confirms? Israel have a number of Covenants. Which one is strengthened? It must the Covenant of Law of Sinai because it contains the daily oblations. And why is the Covenant of Law weak, or in need of confirming? Because without the Temple the Law can not only be fulfilled by it is continuously broken. The Temple is quasi the CENTER of the Law. It is is the CENTER of the Feast Days, It is is the CENTER of the tithing, it is the CENTER of the ordinances of service and worship and it is the place where God dwells among Israel. The Beast needs the Temple (2nd Thess.2:4), and so the ONE SINGLE THING that changes the face of Israel and the Law, is the Temple.

    Conversely, does our Lord Jesus strengthen the Covenant that contains the oblations? And does He do it for only one week - or seven years? NO! When He returns He will DO AWAY WITH THE COVENANT OF SINAI! He will make a NEW COVENANT of Law with Israel. And this NEW COVENANT is FOREVER!

    There is not a single indication in verse 27 that our Lord is in view. ALL is accomplished by the Prince of the Romans people who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD.

    In closing, there are many students of eschatology who deny that a Temple will be in place during the Great Tribulation. So my answer is, besides 2nd Thessalonians 2:4, that Revelation Chapter 11 clearly shows a Temple (v.1-2), clearly shows where it is - Jerusalem, clearly shows when - the last 1260 days, has two God-ordained COUNTER WITNESSES telling the population of Jerusalem that what is going on in the Temple is UNLAWFUL, and is standing at the time of the Beast.

    Since none of these things have happened, Daniel's 70th SEVEN is still future. The Gap then is most likely 2,000 years as Hosea 6.2 predicts.
    Although most translations use the word destroyed, the word is shachath meaning morally or physically ruined. It was the Jewish Civil War that ruined and weakened Jerusalem allowing the Romans to rapidly win that war "like a flood". Both the Galilean kinsmen of Jesus and the Roman's were involved, Jews ruined the city and temple, and Roman's destroyed the city and temple "like a flood".


    In V25 God promised to send the Messiah, Jesus confirmed this to Israel during 3.5 years of ministry, then Romans 11:25 promises that Jesus will again be confirmed as Messiah during the final GT of 3.5 years. For 7 years Jesus will confirm he is the coming prince of V25.

    That last 7 had two events that occur in the midst, firstly Jesus is the end of sacrifices, the final lamb sacrifice. Secondly one will come on the temple to set up the abomination.

    This is where the 490 years of Israel are split, in the midst of the last seven. This in-between period is the growth of the Gentile church until the fulness of the Gentiles. The in-between period is not part of the 490 years "for your people" because it is mainly for the Gentiles. Jesus ministry and the GT are exclusively for revival of the Jews.

    I agree with you on some dual fulfillment though of the temple rebuilding, and stopping of sacrifices as being signs to start the final 3.5 years of the GT during which Jews will have a revival. V25 will be confirmed to them for the final 3.5 years.

  2. #92
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Although most translations use the word destroyed, the word is shachath meaning morally or physically ruined. It was the Jewish Civil War that ruined and weakened Jerusalem allowing the Romans to rapidly win that war "like a flood". Both the Galilean kinsmen of Jesus and the Roman's were involved, Jews ruined the city and temple, and Roman's destroyed the city and temple "like a flood".
    You have to make a choice. The inspired record says that the Prince is from a "People" (singular) who destroyed the city and the sanctuary. It was the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem and its Temple. That's just history. It is well documented that the Roman army had mercenaries and slaves fighting for it, but the "People" who commanded it and executed the destruction was Titus's army - a Roman Army.

    In V25 God promised to send the Messiah, Jesus confirmed this to Israel during 3.5 years of ministry, then Romans 11:25 promises that Jesus will again be confirmed as Messiah during the final GT of 3.5 years. For 7 years Jesus will confirm he is the coming prince of V25.
    I don't see the plain language of these verses saying that. On the contrary, Jesus is never on the scene until He bursts forth from the clouds "after those days (of Tribulation)"

    That last 7 had two events that occur in the midst, firstly Jesus is the end of sacrifices, the final lamb sacrifice. Secondly one will come on the temple to set up the abomination.
    There is no record of this. You have our Lord Jesus and the Beast in Jerusalem at the same time. Yet John, in Revelation 17 has the coming Beast dead already. He only goes to the Lake of Fire AFTER his resurrection and 7 year reign. Then you have Jesus "confirming the Covenant that contains the oblations, and then, abolishing the Law which He said He had NOT come to abolish. And then, on top of that you have Jesus abolishing sacrifice when He promised to feast the Passover when He returned to set up His Kingdom (Lk.22:15-16). This is full of contradictions.

    This is where the 490 years of Israel are split, in the midst of the last seven. This in-between period is the growth of the Gentile church until the fulness of the Gentiles. The in-between period is not part of the 490 years "for your people" because it is mainly for the Gentiles. Jesus ministry and the GT are exclusively for revival of the Jews.
    But you have just stated that while Jesus is dying the Beast is taking over the Temple. Where then is the "gap" you speak of?

    I agree with you on some dual fulfillment though of the temple rebuilding, and stopping of sacrifices as being signs to start the final 3.5 years of the GT during which Jews will have a revival. V25 will be confirmed to them for the final 3.5 years.
    Verse 27 does not make any "gap" nor a dual prophecy. The same man who confirms the Covenant is the one who stops the daily oblation. The language is plain and unambiguous. The same man is operating FOR ONE WEEK.

    "And he (the coming Roman prince) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (the coming Roman prince) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (the coming Roman prince) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

    What the plain language says is that
    1. 70 sevens are set aside for Daniel's People to be restored, recovered, reconciled and have their true King ruling them
    2. 7 of these sevens take up rebuilding the fortification of Jerusalem
    3. 62 further weeks sevens will pass and then the Messiah will be cut off
    4. 1 seven is set aside for Israel to again choose their king

    Now, the following is unequivocal.
    (1) Messiah was killed exactly 483 years after Artaxerxes gave the order to build the walls of Jerusalem in 457 BC (Roman Calendar)

    (2) Messiah is cut off with the Temple still standing and Jerusalem intact. 40 years go by and then the People of the coming prince destroy them both. It is, in verse 26, "... the people of the prince THAT SHALL COME", meaning that the prince is FUTURE TO THE ROMAN DESTRUCTION of Jerusalem and its Temple. So when did this prince come? Was it in the 41st year after Messiah was cut off, or the 43 perhaps? WE all know the answer. He has not yet arrived because Israel was dispersed in 40 AD. There was no one to confirm a Covenant with. And there is - TILL TODAY - NO Temple for (1) daily oblations, and (2) for this prince to set himself up in as 2nd Thessalonians 2:4 predicts. Now, 2nd Thessalonians was written by Paul in 54 AD and Paul tells us that the prince would not come UNTIL OUR GATHERING TO THE LORD (2nd Thess.2:1).

    There is only one sequence that fits the plain language, the grammar, history and the facts. It is this:

    Jesus Messiah was killed at the end of the 69th seven. For another 40 years, NONE of the events of Daniel's prophecy took place. In 70 AD, Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed by Rome - the only event mentioned in Daniel's prophecy that has been fulfilled. Since then NONE of the events of Daniel's prophecy have taken place. Israel remain in dispersion from 70 AD until 1948 AD. There is, and has been, no Temple since 70 AD. The Covenant of Law is intimately bound with the Temple, thus the Covenant of Law of Sinai CANNOT be carried out to this day. The 'prince' of the Romans "who SHALL (future) COME" has no Temple to "desolate". Thus, 2nd Thessalonians 2:4 is not yet fulfilled. Thus Matthew 24:15 is not fulfilled. The Great Tribulation of 3.5 years which starts at the "abomination of desolation" has not taken place. Since Jesus will be "anointed" King at the end of the 70th seven, these last 3.5 years have not taken place. Israel have not been recovered, gathered to their land, have not been reconciled with God, have not anointed Jesus as their King and and not stopped iniquity.

    There is no doubt that the GAP between the 69th seven and the 70th seven is the time that Israel suffer Gentile rule - that is, from the day they called on Caesar's name (the same day that Messiah was cut off) till the Beast is revealed and has power from ten kings to have dealings with the government of Israel.

  3. #93

    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    The context of this verse is the 70th week. If Christ is meant in this verse and that there are no gaps in the 70 weeks, this verse needs to be understood like such then.

    And Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for seven years: and in the midst of the seven years he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the end of the seven years, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Good luck with that interpretation being valid.
    The translated verse would read, And the prince who will come will make an agreement with several others for a seven year period. In the middle of that seven years he will end the sacrifices and obligations in the temple, and it will be made desolate with abominations right to the end of the seven years.

    Daniel is warning about the total destruction of the temple and its rituals.

  4. #94
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    The translated verse would read, And the prince who will come will make an agreement with several others for a seven year period. In the middle of that seven years he will end the sacrifices and obligations in the temple, and it will be made desolate with abominations right to the end of the seven years.

    Daniel is warning about the total destruction of the temple and its rituals.
    I don't agree, but at least this interpretation has all of verse 27 involving the 70th week, plus it doesn't have a gap in the middle of it like some others' interpretations do. From what I can tell, pretty much everyone that sees Jesus fulfilling verse 27, they all place a gap in the middle of the week. then they claim the parts fulfilled after the gap, they don't even get fulfilled during the 70th week. IOW the 70th week is already in the past by that time. But there are some who do think the parts after the gap still involve the 70th week. The gap in their case is at least 2000 years in length. Your interpretation does not do that, nor does an interpretation having a gap between the 69th and 70th week do that either. So my point is, if there has to be a gap in the 70 weeks, the only logical place for it to be would be between the 69th and 70th week, and certainly not during the 70th week instead.

    So no matter how one looks at it, except for your interpretation and maybe some other Preterist interpretations, all other interpretations are seeing a gap of some kind in the texts. Some see the gap being between the 69th and 70th week. Pretty much all others see a gap in the middle of the 70th week, but that the biggest majority of them don't see it being a gap in the 70 weeks though, yet it clearly and undeniably is.

  5. #95
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    The translated verse would read, And the prince who will come will make an agreement with several others for a seven year period. In the middle of that seven years he will end the sacrifices and obligations in the temple, and it will be made desolate with abominations right to the end of the seven years.

    Daniel is warning about the total destruction of the temple and its rituals.
    I think this is what Daniel is writing about. Daniel 9:24;

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6) anoint the most Holy."

    The destruction of the Temple is taken for granted in verse 26. Equally, in verse 27 a new Temple is implied. Verse 27 is the prediction that an imposter will "make desolate" the holy place, implying and predicting that Israel's TRANSGRESSION, INIQUITY and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS remain till the last day of the allotted recovery time. In the wilderness Israel chose Egypt and carried their idols in their tents. In the Good Land Israel chose the gods of the Canaanites. At our Lord Jesus's trial they chose Caesar. And, in the final event of their tortured existence, they choose another Caesar - a Roman Prince with the name whose number is 666 - Caesar Nero. But as Israel WANT what they want, the prophecy is "sealed" that their eyes might be blind to what is coming - even when Christianity has deciphered the prophecy (Deut.28:28; Rom.11:25).

  6. #96
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The destruction of the Temple is taken for granted in verse 26.
    Maybe that's what that part in verse 26 is referring to, and maybe it isn't. I tend to think it isn't. I tend to think it belongs with the 70th week, the same way the cutting off of the Messiah in that same verse belongs with the first 69 weeks.

  7. #97
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Maybe that's what that part in verse 26 is referring to, and maybe it isn't. I tend to think it isn't. I tend to think it belongs with the 70th week, the same way the cutting off of the Messiah in that same verse belongs with the first 69 weeks.
    What I meant was that that the prophecy is not primarily to predict the destruction of the Temple as our esteemed brother Bryan Pergola sees it. The destruction of the Temple alluded to in verse 26;
    1. Is to give the nationality of the future prince
    2. Is to tell that another Temple will be built as hope for Daniel that Israel again will be restored to their Land as Jeremiah predicted
    3. Is to tell that this next Temple will meet the same fate as Solomon's

    I judge that nothing is said about WHEN it will be destroyed, BUT,
    1. looking forward like Daniel was, it must be AFTER the Messiah is cut off because there is no prophecy that the Romans will wage war while the Messiah is alive. If there was, then Daniel would have to believe that the prophecy of the effigy in Chapter 2 was then fulfilled. A war between Rome and Messiah would mean the end of Gentile rule - as it will eventually turn out, but Messiah being cut off puts Chapter 2 way into the future for Daniel.
    2. looking back like we can, it must lie in the GAP between Messiah being cut off and the future Roman prince.
    3. as I say, in this prophecy it is not told when. Nor did our Lord tell when when He foretold it in Matthew 24

  8. #98

    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I think this is what Daniel is writing about. Daniel 9:24;

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6) anoint the most Holy."

    The destruction of the Temple is taken for granted in verse 26. Equally, in verse 27 a new Temple is implied. Verse 27 is the prediction that an imposter will "make desolate" the holy place, implying and predicting that Israel's TRANSGRESSION, INIQUITY and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS remain till the last day of the allotted recovery time. In the wilderness Israel chose Egypt and carried their idols in their tents. In the Good Land Israel chose the gods of the Canaanites. At our Lord Jesus's trial they chose Caesar. And, in the final event of their tortured existence, they choose another Caesar - a Roman Prince with the name whose number is 666 - Caesar Nero. But as Israel WANT what they want, the prophecy is "sealed" that their eyes might be blind to what is coming - even when Christianity has deciphered the prophecy (Deut.28:28; Rom.11:25).
    I can see no mention of an imposter in verse 27, but I do know what you are referring to, and I see no implied new temple. My feelings are that these are themes added to allow them to be combined with other prophecy.
    As far as the list of 6 conclusions expected at the end as revealed by Daniel, the first four are actually saying similar things. Were they realized in the first century?

    “22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification and the outcome, eternal life.” (Romans 6:22 NASV)

    18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.” (2 Corinthians 5:18-19 NASB)

    Was the vision and prophecy of the Old Testament sealed until the end? 25“...according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith...” (Romans 16:25-26 NASB)

    Was the most Holy anointed? 9“For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians 2:9-11 NASB)

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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You have to make a choice. The inspired record says that the Prince is from a "People" (singular) who destroyed the city and the sanctuary. It was the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem and its Temple. That's just history. It is well documented that the Roman army had mercenaries and slaves fighting for it, but the "People" who commanded it and executed the destruction was Titus's army - a Roman Army.



    I don't see the plain language of these verses saying that. On the contrary, Jesus is never on the scene until He bursts forth from the clouds "after those days (of Tribulation)"



    There is no record of this. You have our Lord Jesus and the Beast in Jerusalem at the same time. Yet John, in Revelation 17 has the coming Beast dead already. He only goes to the Lake of Fire AFTER his resurrection and 7 year reign. Then you have Jesus "confirming the Covenant that contains the oblations, and then, abolishing the Law which He said He had NOT come to abolish. And then, on top of that you have Jesus abolishing sacrifice when He promised to feast the Passover when He returned to set up His Kingdom (Lk.22:15-16). This is full of contradictions.



    But you have just stated that while Jesus is dying the Beast is taking over the Temple. Where then is the "gap" you speak of?



    Verse 27 does not make any "gap" nor a dual prophecy. The same man who confirms the Covenant is the one who stops the daily oblation. The language is plain and unambiguous. The same man is operating FOR ONE WEEK.

    "And he (the coming Roman prince) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (the coming Roman prince) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (the coming Roman prince) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

    What the plain language says is that
    1. 70 sevens are set aside for Daniel's People to be restored, recovered, reconciled and have their true King ruling them
    2. 7 of these sevens take up rebuilding the fortification of Jerusalem
    3. 62 further weeks sevens will pass and then the Messiah will be cut off
    4. 1 seven is set aside for Israel to again choose their king

    Now, the following is unequivocal.
    (1) Messiah was killed exactly 483 years after Artaxerxes gave the order to build the walls of Jerusalem in 457 BC (Roman Calendar)

    (2) Messiah is cut off with the Temple still standing and Jerusalem intact. 40 years go by and then the People of the coming prince destroy them both. It is, in verse 26, "... the people of the prince THAT SHALL COME", meaning that the prince is FUTURE TO THE ROMAN DESTRUCTION of Jerusalem and its Temple. So when did this prince come? Was it in the 41st year after Messiah was cut off, or the 43 perhaps? WE all know the answer. He has not yet arrived because Israel was dispersed in 40 AD. There was no one to confirm a Covenant with. And there is - TILL TODAY - NO Temple for (1) daily oblations, and (2) for this prince to set himself up in as 2nd Thessalonians 2:4 predicts. Now, 2nd Thessalonians was written by Paul in 54 AD and Paul tells us that the prince would not come UNTIL OUR GATHERING TO THE LORD (2nd Thess.2:1).

    There is only one sequence that fits the plain language, the grammar, history and the facts. It is this:

    Jesus Messiah was killed at the end of the 69th seven. For another 40 years, NONE of the events of Daniel's prophecy took place. In 70 AD, Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed by Rome - the only event mentioned in Daniel's prophecy that has been fulfilled. Since then NONE of the events of Daniel's prophecy have taken place. Israel remain in dispersion from 70 AD until 1948 AD. There is, and has been, no Temple since 70 AD. The Covenant of Law is intimately bound with the Temple, thus the Covenant of Law of Sinai CANNOT be carried out to this day. The 'prince' of the Romans "who SHALL (future) COME" has no Temple to "desolate". Thus, 2nd Thessalonians 2:4 is not yet fulfilled. Thus Matthew 24:15 is not fulfilled. The Great Tribulation of 3.5 years which starts at the "abomination of desolation" has not taken place. Since Jesus will be "anointed" King at the end of the 70th seven, these last 3.5 years have not taken place. Israel have not been recovered, gathered to their land, have not been reconciled with God, have not anointed Jesus as their King and and not stopped iniquity.

    There is no doubt that the GAP between the 69th seven and the 70th seven is the time that Israel suffer Gentile rule - that is, from the day they called on Caesar's name (the same day that Messiah was cut off) till the Beast is revealed and has power from ten kings to have dealings with the government of Israel.
    You say I have to choose, yet history is clear that the Jewish Civil War in Jerusalem morally and physically ruined Jerusalem which weakened the defenses for the Roman attack.

    The people (Jewish leaders in the Civil War) of the ruler who will come (Jesus) will SHACHATH (to ruin) the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood (Romans) : War will continue until the end (Romans) and desolations have been decreed (continued Roman persecution of Israel)

    You cannot say that view is impossible, because it both fits the history, and fits the text. Thus Jesus could be the "he" that confirms the promise. Which promise you may ask, the promise of v25 that an anointed one would come.

    You seem to deny that Jesus 3.5 year ministry, or an end times revival among the Jews would confirm Jesus as Messiah. That is what revival is, when a certain group of people become certain that Jesus is our saviour/Messiah. They get saved, Jesus as savior is confirmed in their hearts, the promise of v25 will be confirmed to the Jews when their blindness is lifted during the 3.5 years of the GT.

    Ps if you add 483 years from 457 BC, you do not get to the crucifixion. Try experiment with the maths, it doesnt work. What does however work, if you start from Ezras decree to spiritually restore Jerusalem in national repentance, 483 years later is the START of Jesus ministry, the coming of the anointed one in autumn 26 AD.

  10. #100

    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Which clues have we missed?
    Okay, you're saying that grammatically "he" must refer to the nearest antecedent, which is Prince. And since the Prince was Roman, therefore the future "he" must also be Roman. I'm saying that "he" could refer to anyone, be he Roman or otherwise. This would be illogical grammatically, for if "he" is Egyptian—for example—then he's not Roman. I don't exclude the possibility that you're right, I'm just including another possibility.

    Cheers.

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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    And just when I thought I'd heard them all! There is no gap, because there was no Israel? Your realm of thinking is too deep for my simple brain Revman.
    Its true, looking at it from God's perspectives, NOT MANS.

    Now does the Statue FIT ? Do the 5 Beasts fit better ? Yes.

    You see the Church was an insertion because Israel rejected Christ. Ever notice that the 70 AD events are just lie the End Time Events ? Which is why Jesus warned the Disciples not to be deceived in Matthew 24:1-6, by false christs {whom the Pharisees put forth, understanding Rome was indeed the Fourth Beast}. Jesus told them that the end would be BY AND BY .......Way later.

    But if Israel had accepted Christ, Jesus would have came back in 70 AD to save then from the Fourth Beast. The KEY is Israel has to repent before Jesus Second Coming. Of course God knew they would not repent, but God always gives the chance, like he did to Nineveh etc. etc.

    So the Plan was the plan........Israel does not repent......God inserts the Church age........God brings a Dead Israel back to life and restarts the timeline. Once the Rapture happens {Church Age ends} Israel will have 7 years to repent. They do so 75 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Israel at the 1260. They do so at the 1335 {Two-witnesses}.

    God says they did not exist, so who am I to say God is a liar ? Thus there is no Gap.

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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Its true, looking at it from God's perspectives, NOT MANS.

    Now does the Statue FIT ? Do the 5 Beasts fit better ? Yes.

    You see the Church was an insertion because Israel rejected Christ. Ever notice that the 70 AD events are just lie the End Time Events ? Which is why Jesus warned the Disciples not to be deceived in Matthew 24:1-6, by false christs {whom the Pharisees put forth, understanding Rome was indeed the Fourth Beast}. Jesus told them that the end would be BY AND BY .......Way later.

    But if Israel had accepted Christ, Jesus would have came back in 70 AD to save then from the Fourth Beast. The KEY is Israel has to repent before Jesus Second Coming. Of course God knew they would not repent, but God always gives the chance, like he did to Nineveh etc. etc.

    So the Plan was the plan........Israel does not repent......God inserts the Church age........God brings a Dead Israel back to life and restarts the timeline. Once the Rapture happens {Church Age ends} Israel will have 7 years to repent. They do so 75 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Israel at the 1260. They do so at the 1335 {Two-witnesses}.

    God says they did not exist, so who am I to say God is a liar ? Thus there is no Gap.
    What I meant was WITHOUT the Church Age the Statue and 5 Beasts fit perfectly. Its also why the 5th Beast is technically a 5th Beast much later to us men, BUT God considers it a part of the Fourth Beast like a continuum. But it is one of the Seven Heads as the Last Beast is a MAN {666).

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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    You say I have to choose, yet history is clear that the Jewish Civil War in Jerusalem morally and physically ruined Jerusalem which weakened the defenses for the Roman attack.

    The people (Jewish leaders in the Civil War) of the ruler who will come (Jesus) will SHACHATH (to ruin) the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood (Romans) : War will continue until the end (Romans) and desolations have been decreed (continued Roman persecution of Israel)

    You cannot say that view is impossible, because it both fits the history, and fits the text. Thus Jesus could be the "he" that confirms the promise. Which promise you may ask, the promise of v25 that an anointed one would come.

    You seem to deny that Jesus 3.5 year ministry, or an end times revival among the Jews would confirm Jesus as Messiah. That is what revival is, when a certain group of people become certain that Jesus is our saviour/Messiah. They get saved, Jesus as savior is confirmed in their hearts, the promise of v25 will be confirmed to the Jews when their blindness is lifted during the 3.5 years of the GT.

    Ps if you add 483 years from 457 BC, you do not get to the crucifixion. Try experiment with the maths, it doesnt work. What does however work, if you start from Ezras decree to spiritually restore Jerusalem in national repentance, 483 years later is the START of Jesus ministry, the coming of the anointed one in autumn 26 AD.
    Even though you too have a gap after the middle of the week, as does everyone who sees Jesus fulfilling verse 27, you at least have all of that verse pertaining to the 70th week. All of these others only have some of verse 27 pertaining to the 70th week, while the remainder of it they have being fulfilled post the 70 weeks.

    No doubt whatsoever, they couldn't possibly be correct about verse 27 if they conclude only some of it, rather than all of it, is fulfilled during the 70th week. Shouldn't this be telling you that by putting Christ in verse 27 it makes verse 27 illogical?

    The 42 month reign of the beast is what precedes the 2nd coming. But when I look at Rev 13 though, I'm not getting any impression from the texts that Jesus is confirming the covenant with the Jews during the entire 3.5 year reign of the beast, or even at all. The beast is waging war against the saints, IOW against the church. The focus at this point is not the Jews, but is the church. Think Revelation 12:14-17. Verse 17 is during the reign of the beast.

  14. #104
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Its true, looking at it from God's perspectives, NOT MANS.

    Now does the Statue FIT ? Do the 5 Beasts fit better ? Yes.

    You see the Church was an insertion because Israel rejected Christ. Ever notice that the 70 AD events are just lie the End Time Events ? Which is why Jesus warned the Disciples not to be deceived in Matthew 24:1-6, by false christs {whom the Pharisees put forth, understanding Rome was indeed the Fourth Beast}. Jesus told them that the end would be BY AND BY .......Way later.

    But if Israel had accepted Christ, Jesus would have came back in 70 AD to save then from the Fourth Beast. The KEY is Israel has to repent before Jesus Second Coming. Of course God knew they would not repent, but God always gives the chance, like he did to Nineveh etc. etc.

    So the Plan was the plan........Israel does not repent......God inserts the Church age........God brings a Dead Israel back to life and restarts the timeline. Once the Rapture happens {Church Age ends} Israel will have 7 years to repent. They do so 75 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Israel at the 1260. They do so at the 1335 {Two-witnesses}.

    God says they did not exist, so who am I to say God is a liar ? Thus there is no Gap.
    Anyone reading the OT after what has been revealed in the NT, and has been revealed by Christ's first coming, would know from the prophecies in the OT that God stuck with the same plan, thus wasn't subject to changing plans if Israel did this, or if Israel didn't do this, etc.

    Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

    Here is an example of what I am meaning. Clearly Christ is meant here. In order for Him to fulfill this, this requires a coming, a leaving, and then a returning. and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked....this is what He does upon return. This is the same prophecy found in Rev 19. God was never subject to changing His plans based on what Israel would or would not do.

  15. #105
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD
    No doubt whatsoever, they couldn't possibly be correct about verse 27 if they conclude only some of it, rather than all of it, is fulfilled during the 70th week. Shouldn't this be telling you that by putting Christ in verse 27 it makes verse 27 illogical?
    Its not illogical when we realise that one Prince is Christ and the other prince is Titus.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

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