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Thread: The Preterist Gap

  1. #136
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. We've both set forth our arguments. So I'll only comment on two of your points.
    1. Israel's moral condition reached its low point, not in 70 AD, but 30 AD when Jesus called them sons of the serpent. It was then that all 330+ prophecies concerning Jesus, that had been fulfilled before their eyes, were ignored. It was then that they called on Caesar to be their king. It was then that they called for Barabas's punishment to fall on a Man who had only done good. It was then that they trashed the judgment process laid forth by Moses. It was then that they called for the blood of Messiah to be on them and their generations. It was then that "their House, the Temple, was left desolate". I challenge anyone to show lower morals for Israel than those of 30 AD. And yet God gave them another 40 years to repent before fulfilling the parable of the Vineyard in Matthew 22:7.
    2. Israel's blindness is not lifted during the Great Tribulation. It is only lifted when our Lord bursts through the clouds at the END of the Great Tribulation. It is only lifted, according to scripture, when the, "... fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25). The fullness of the Gentiles to occur is the day before Armageddon when the Church is gone, the Two Witnesses are dead and Israel rejoice their deaths, and the Beast can command a massive army from "the whole world" (Rev.16:14).
    Sure I do agree with you that Israel's low point was 30 AD not 70 AD. I believe that Dan 9:26 should be regarded as an aside point, referring to 70 AD events outside the 70 sevens. The reason I mention the Jewish leaders who schachath/ruin Jerusalem before the Roman destruction is merely to identify the ruler, the he who confirms the promise being Jesus who confirms the promise of v25, an anointed one to come.

    Regarding Israel's blindness, your view could easily fit Romans 11:25, I am not denying that possibility that the blindness is lifted at the second coming. I regard the great victory of the gospel in Rev 12, as the moment the church has successfully preached the gospel to the nations, because what other great victory of our testimony could cause Satan to be removed from his place, and the start of the great tribulation/persecution event? Have you any good ideas concerning the great victory of Rev 12 which occurs 3.5 years before the end?

    If that victory of Rev 12 is the fullness of the gospel to the nations, this highlights a second possible meaning to Romans 11:25. That Israel will be open to the gospel during its final 3.5 years of protection at the end of this age.

  2. #137
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Peter during the first century disagrees with your expectation.

    Any member of the house of Israel living then, or any generation since then, become God’s people immediately when they repent.

    Calvary is bigger than dispensationalism divisions and dis-unity within humankind.

    Acts 2:36
    Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
    37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
    40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
    41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized
    I think I'll wait until you address my proof from Jeremiah 32. Not one of those verses you produced allude to being called God's people.

    But let me ask you a question. Your scripture, having nothing to do with being called God's people, refers to a group of 3,000 in Jerusalem at the Feast of Weeks. Historians judge that the population of Jerusalem swelled to about 2 million for this Feast - most of them from the dispersion (as the preamble shows). Now, let's be kind. Let's halve the historian's estimate to 1 million. 3,000 out of 1 million is 0.3% - that is, a third of 1% percent. Is this a great turning point for the Jews in Judea or in the dispersion? And what then of the massive persecution and killing program by the Jews against the TRUE God's People - the Church?

    Lo-ammi will be lifted one day, and Israel will again be God's People, but to convert to Christ has nothing to do with Israel's standing before the Lord. In the Church there is NO JEW but a New Creature (2nd Cor.5.17; Gal.3:28; Col.3:11). And the rest of Israel is ALL concluded, by God Himself, IN UNBELIEF (Rom.11:32).

  3. #138
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Sure I do agree with you that Israel's low point was 30 AD not 70 AD. I believe that Dan 9:26 should be regarded as an aside point, referring to 70 AD events outside the 70 sevens. The reason I mention the Jewish leaders who schachath/ruin Jerusalem before the Roman destruction is merely to identify the ruler, the he who confirms the promise being Jesus who confirms the promise of v25, an anointed one to come.

    Regarding Israel's blindness, your view could easily fit Romans 11:25, I am not denying that possibility that the blindness is lifted at the second coming. I regard the great victory of the gospel in Rev 12, as the moment the church has successfully preached the gospel to the nations, because what other great victory of our testimony could cause Satan to be removed from his place, and the start of the great tribulation/persecution event? Have you any good ideas concerning the great victory of Rev 12 which occurs 3.5 years before the end?

    If that victory of Rev 12 is the fullness of the gospel to the nations, this highlights a second possible meaning to Romans 11:25. That Israel will be open to the gospel during its final 3.5 years of protection at the end of this age.
    I see no great victory in Revelation 12. Rather - a massive defeat.

    The heavenly woman has THREE seeds.
    1. The Man-Child
    2. Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ
    3. Those who keep the commandments of God

    The end of the matter is;
    1. The Man-Child OVERCOMES the Devil not with the gospel, but, "... by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their (soul) lives unto the death". Christ's blood is for their sins, it is THEIR testimony - not Christ's, and the way was by self denial. None of these are military or aggressive. Their victory over Satan is moral. The military victory over Satan is achieved by MICHAEL - an angel.
    2. The Woman must FLEE. Only the vanquished flee in the face of the enemy
    3. Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ - that is, Christians, must seek refuge in a wilderness - another defeat
    4. Those who keep the commandments of God (not Christ) - that is, the Jewish Remnant, must seek refuge in a wilderness - another defeat
    5. Revelation 13:7 shows Satan's proxy, the Beast, in VICTORY; "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

    I think you'll have to reconsider.

  4. #139
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I see no great victory in Revelation 12. Rather - a massive defeat.

    The heavenly woman has THREE seeds.
    1. The Man-Child
    2. Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ
    3. Those who keep the commandments of God

    The end of the matter is;
    1. The Man-Child OVERCOMES the Devil not with the gospel, but, "... by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their (soul) lives unto the death". Christ's blood is for their sins, it is THEIR testimony - not Christ's, and the way was by self denial. None of these are military or aggressive. Their victory over Satan is moral. The military victory over Satan is achieved by MICHAEL - an angel.
    2. The Woman must FLEE. Only the vanquished flee in the face of the enemy
    3. Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ - that is, Christians, must seek refuge in a wilderness - another defeat
    4. Those who keep the commandments of God (not Christ) - that is, the Jewish Remnant, must seek refuge in a wilderness - another defeat
    5. Revelation 13:7 shows Satan's proxy, the Beast, in VICTORY; "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

    I think you'll have to reconsider.
    Sure those things do occur, but there is certainly a great victory:

    They triumphed over him
    by the blood of the Lamb
    and by the word of their testimony;
    they did not love their lives so much
    as to shrink from death.
    12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
    and you who dwell in them!

    There is a triumph, and rejoicing in heaven. What do you think the church achieved at that moment, that caused Satan to be removed from his place at that moment?

  5. #140

    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But the prophecy of Daniel 9 is to "DANIEL'S PEOPLE". The verses you have brought apply to the Church.
    I don't see the word church. I guess it is included. But of course that isn't the point as usual.

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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Good point. However, I would reassert my own view, that the 70th Week was not meant to be a full week. It ended in the midst of the Week, at the crucifixion of Christ.
    You'll love this bro.


    When Christ sent out the Gospel through the ministry of himself and of the Apostles, it lasted three or three and a half years, that it almost amounts to the calculation of Daniel, namely the 490 years. Hence he also says, Christ shall take a half a week, in which the daily offerings shall cease; that is, the priesthood and reign of the Jews shall have an end; which all took place in the three and a half years in which Christ preached, and was almost completed in four years after Christ, in which the Gospel prospered the most, especially in Palestine through the Apostles (that when they opened their mouth, the Holy Ghost fell as it were, from heaven, as we see in the Acts of the Apostles), so that a whole week, or seven years, established the covenant, as Daniel says; that is, the Gospel was preached to the Jews, of which we spoke before. Now, when the time came that a new message or sermon began, there must also begin a new kingdom, that is, where Christ rules spiritually in our hearts through the Word and faith. If this is now to continue, then the other must be set aside and has no more authority and must cease. This is the part of the prophecy of the prophets, which Christ is explaining.

    MARTIN LUTHER (Sermon on Matthew 24:15-28)
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  7. #142
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Good point. However, I would reassert my own view, that the 70th Week was not meant to be a full week. It ended in the midst of the Week, at the crucifixion of Christ.
    Maybe you need to get a calculator then and check how much 70x7 equals. It doesn't equal 486.5 that's for certain. That aside, let me ask you this then.

    Jeremiah 25:12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

    Do you reason this unrelated example the same way? Do you think it can mean less than 70 years and still mean when seventy years are accomplished?

  8. #143
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I think I'll wait until you address my proof from Jeremiah 32. Not one of those verses you produced allude to being called God's people.

    But let me ask you a question. Your scripture, having nothing to do with being called God's people, refers to a group of 3,000 in Jerusalem at the Feast of Weeks. Historians judge that the population of Jerusalem swelled to about 2 million for this Feast - most of them from the dispersion (as the preamble shows). Now, let's be kind. Let's halve the historian's estimate to 1 million. 3,000 out of 1 million is 0.3% - that is, a third of 1% percent. Is this a great turning point for the Jews in Judea or in the dispersion? And what then of the massive persecution and killing program by the Jews against the TRUE God's People - the Church?

    Lo-ammi will be lifted one day, and Israel will again be God's People, but to convert to Christ has nothing to do with Israel's standing before the Lord. In the Church there is NO JEW but a New Creature (2nd Cor.5.17; Gal.3:28; Col.3:11). And the rest of Israel is ALL concluded, by God Himself, IN UNBELIEF (Rom.11:32).

    You missed God’s people in Acts 2.
    It wasn’t limited to 3000 people at a single event.

    God’s people are found as anyone from “All the house of Israel” who repent and receive the Holy Spirit for the remission of sin.

    It doesn’t get anymore ‘God’s people’ than that.

    And Peter said this offer wasn’t limited to that one time and that one crowd, but to “All the house of Israel”, and their children, and as many the Lord calls, from that generation onward.

    You miss the power of the cross and the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of God’s people throughout the NT era, when you postpone this reality to a long distance future, as if “It is Finished” didn’t apply to any and all Israelites living throughout the last 2000 years.

    Nothing does a disservice to Israelites than modern postponement eschatology, that excludes them from the immediate blessings and benefits of the cross, and removes their unity and brotherhood with all of God’s redeemed of all ages as one Holy family.

    Rethink and reconsider what was accomplished on the cross, and for who...that will greatly modify and affect your eschatological expectations.

    Christ’s finished work on the cross is amazingly perfect for any Israelite in any era.

  9. #144
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    You missed God’s people in Acts 2.
    It wasn’t limited to 3000 people at a single event.

    God’s people are found as anyone from “All the house of Israel” who repent and receive the Holy Spirit for the remission of sin.

    It doesn’t get anymore ‘God’s people’ than that.

    And Peter said this offer wasn’t limited to that one time and that one crowd, but to “All the house of Israel”, and their children, and as many the Lord calls, from that generation onward.

    You miss the power of the cross and the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of God’s people throughout the NT era, when you postpone this reality to a long distance future, as if “It is Finished” didn’t apply to any and all Israelites living throughout the last 2000 years.

    Nothing does a disservice to Israelites than modern postponement eschatology, that excludes them from the immediate blessings and benefits of the cross, and removes their unity and brotherhood with all of God’s redeemed of all ages as one Holy family.

    Rethink and reconsider what was accomplished on the cross, and for who...that will greatly modify and affect your eschatological expectations.

    Christ’s finished work on the cross is amazingly perfect for any Israelite in any era.
    I concur

    2 Corr 6:2
    For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, today is the day of salvation.

  10. #145
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    You missed God’s people in Acts 2.
    It wasn’t limited to 3000 people at a single event.

    God’s people are found as anyone from “All the house of Israel” who repent and receive the Holy Spirit for the remission of sin.

    It doesn’t get anymore ‘God’s people’ than that.

    And Peter said this offer wasn’t limited to that one time and that one crowd, but to “All the house of Israel”, and their children, and as many the Lord calls, from that generation onward.

    You miss the power of the cross and the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of God’s people throughout the NT era, when you postpone this reality to a long distance future, as if “It is Finished” didn’t apply to any and all Israelites living throughout the last 2000 years.

    Nothing does a disservice to Israelites than modern postponement eschatology, that excludes them from the immediate blessings and benefits of the cross, and removes their unity and brotherhood with all of God’s redeemed of all ages as one Holy family.

    Rethink and reconsider what was accomplished on the cross, and for who...that will greatly modify and affect your eschatological expectations.

    Christ’s finished work on the cross is amazingly perfect for any Israelite in any era.
    Yes but Mt Zion lost its anointing over that period, yet prophecy points to that location being raised up and anointed forever. Even though the first advent created the spiritual kingdom, this will manifest over the kingdoms of this world at the second coming. We can't deny the power of the transformation to come at the second coming. At that point the kingdoms of this world will be overcome, which is actually a different situation to living under the rule of Trump/Putin/Boris/Erdogan/Kim Jong-Un etc

    One cannot say it's all done, while we are still living under this worldly system. Prophecy exists, Israel is in national sin, Mt Zion hasn't been anointed and raised up yet as prophesied, v24 will certainly be more completely fulfilled at the second coming. I would never undermine the power of the cross, nevertheless the world awaits the coming of Christ. Romans 11:25 is clear the blindness of Israel has not been lifted yet. Not yet.

  11. #146
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    You missed God’s people in Acts 2.
    It wasn’t limited to 3000 people at a single event.

    God’s people are found as anyone from “All the house of Israel” who repent and receive the Holy Spirit for the remission of sin.

    It doesn’t get anymore ‘God’s people’ than that.

    And Peter said this offer wasn’t limited to that one time and that one crowd, but to “All the house of Israel”, and their children, and as many the Lord calls, from that generation onward.

    You miss the power of the cross and the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of God’s people throughout the NT era, when you postpone this reality to a long distance future, as if “It is Finished” didn’t apply to any and all Israelites living throughout the last 2000 years.

    Nothing does a disservice to Israelites than modern postponement eschatology, that excludes them from the immediate blessings and benefits of the cross, and removes their unity and brotherhood with all of God’s redeemed of all ages as one Holy family.

    Rethink and reconsider what was accomplished on the cross, and for who...that will greatly modify and affect your eschatological expectations.

    Christ’s finished work on the cross is amazingly perfect for any Israelite in any era.
    I completely concur. Nice post...

  12. #147
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I see no great victory in Revelation 12. Rather - a massive defeat.

    The heavenly woman has THREE seeds.
    1. The Man-Child
    2. Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ
    3. Those who keep the commandments of God

    The end of the matter is;
    1. The Man-Child OVERCOMES the Devil not with the gospel, but, "... by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their (soul) lives unto the death". Christ's blood is for their sins, it is THEIR testimony - not Christ's, and the way was by self denial. None of these are military or aggressive. Their victory over Satan is moral. The military victory over Satan is achieved by MICHAEL - an angel.
    2. The Woman must FLEE. Only the vanquished flee in the face of the enemy
    3. Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ - that is, Christians, must seek refuge in a wilderness - another defeat
    4. Those who keep the commandments of God (not Christ) - that is, the Jewish Remnant, must seek refuge in a wilderness - another defeat
    5. Revelation 13:7 shows Satan's proxy, the Beast, in VICTORY; "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

    I think you'll have to reconsider.
    In military terms, an army may withdraw or fall back from an unwinnable engagement to regroup and fight another day. Even if running away into the desert by Israel and the church can be viewed as defeat, it is a pyrrhic victory for the Beast at best.

  13. #148
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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    You missed God’s people in Acts 2.
    It wasn’t limited to 3000 people at a single event.

    God’s people are found as anyone from “All the house of Israel” who repent and receive the Holy Spirit for the remission of sin.

    It doesn’t get anymore ‘God’s people’ than that.

    And Peter said this offer wasn’t limited to that one time and that one crowd, but to “All the house of Israel”, and their children, and as many the Lord calls, from that generation onward.

    You miss the power of the cross and the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of God’s people throughout the NT era, when you postpone this reality to a long distance future, as if “It is Finished” didn’t apply to any and all Israelites living throughout the last 2000 years.

    Nothing does a disservice to Israelites than modern postponement eschatology, that excludes them from the immediate blessings and benefits of the cross, and removes their unity and brotherhood with all of God’s redeemed of all ages as one Holy family.

    Rethink and reconsider what was accomplished on the cross, and for who...that will greatly modify and affect your eschatological expectations.

    Christ’s finished work on the cross is amazingly perfect for any Israelite in any era.
    Well have you avoided Jeremiah again, and well have you not posted scriptures for your thoughts. But I will. Acts 15:13-17;

    13 "And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
    14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."


    The sequence is;
    1. David's House - the house that ruled the COMBINED 12 tribes, IS IN RUINS as James speaks
    2. While this House over combined Israel is in ruins, God will FIRST visit the gentiles for a people that carry His Name
    3. When this People who carry the Name of Jehovah are COMPLETE - the word is "AFTER THIS" - God will raise up the House of David OF WHICH JESUS IS THE PROMISED KING AND SON OF DAVID, and Lord and King over ISRAEL'S 12 TRIBES.

    Truthful eschatology is the only way to reach the Jew. His sins are made known by true exegesis - like Stephen and Paul's discourses on their stiffneckedness. And the Jew is made jealous by the Church (Rom.10:19, 11:11). Any Christian who tries to water down Israel's present ruinous standing is watering down the very gospel that could save them. Peter's call to Israel in Acts 2 was "REPENT". One repents when vile behavior has been revealed.

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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I see no great victory in Revelation 12. Rather - a massive defeat.

    The heavenly woman has THREE seeds.
    1. The Man-Child
    2. Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ
    3. Those who keep the commandments of God
    The Woman is Israel ans she has ONE SEED, that is Jesus Christ.

    Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman {Israel}, and went to make war with the remnant {Church} of her seed {Jesus Christ}, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    So the Dragon via the Anti-Christ can't get at the Woman so he turns his wrath towards the REMNANT CHURCH {Its a Remnant Church because these were SAVED AFTER the Rapture} who have the testimony of Jesus AND keeps God's commandments via the Holy Spirit living in them. The Church is in Heaven, thus this is THE REMNANT. This Remnant can't be Jews, the Woman are the 1/3 of the Jews who Repented and fled Judea to the PROTECTED ZONE {Petra}. The 2/3 of the Jews who do not repent will perish. This is all foretold in Zechariah 13:8-9.

    The male-child {proper translation} is Jesus Christ who overcame Satan via his virtue/holiness. The Woman Flees because Jesus told them to flee when they see the AoD, thus God/Jesus will protect them, thus they are not vanquished but are victors in Christ. Those Christians will be put to death, they are the ones crying out for justice under the Altar in the 5th Seal. They live and reign with Christ for 1000 years, so says Rev. 20:4. They are the REMNANT CHURCH, the Church/Bride will return with Christ just like Rev, 19 says. Those who keep the commandments of God are also the Remnant Church, notice it says AND in between......which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. {BOTH are about the Remnant Church}

    He does overcome the Christian Saints {Remnant} and the Jews who fail to repent. He does not overcome the Jews who Flee Judea.

    One has to get the timing of the Rapture right to have any chance of understanding God's truths as per the timing of these events.

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    Re: The Preterist Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    You missed God’s people in Acts 2.
    It wasn’t limited to 3000 people at a single event.

    God’s people are found as anyone from “All the house of Israel” who repent and receive the Holy Spirit for the remission of sin.

    It doesn’t get anymore ‘God’s people’ than that.

    And Peter said this offer wasn’t limited to that one time and that one crowd, but to “All the house of Israel”, and their children, and as many the Lord calls, from that generation onward.

    You miss the power of the cross and the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of God’s people throughout the NT era, when you postpone this reality to a long distance future, as if “It is Finished” didn’t apply to any and all Israelites living throughout the last 2000 years.

    Nothing does a disservice to Israelites than modern postponement eschatology, that excludes them from the immediate blessings and benefits of the cross, and removes their unity and brotherhood with all of God’s redeemed of all ages as one Holy family.

    Rethink and reconsider what was accomplished on the cross, and for who...that will greatly modify and affect your eschatological expectations.

    Christ’s finished work on the cross is amazingly perfect for any Israelite in any era.
    I liked this bit "Rethink and reconsider what was accomplished on the cross, and for who...that will greatly modify and affect your eschatological expectations."
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

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