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Thread: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

  1. #61
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    Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Let's say it isn't post the 2nd coming. That would present a problem as well, if the idea is for overcomers(Christians) to kill the lost(which appears to be DavidT's interpretation). Usually it's the other way around. In this age it's usually Christians who are being killed by the lost.
    broken to shivers doesn't necessarily mean killed ... and well if the 2nd coming is postmil ... then that changes things ...
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  2. #62

    Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    broken to shivers doesn't necessarily mean killed ...
    Maybe "rendered useless" is a better meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    and well if the 2nd coming is postmil ... then that changes things ...
    Yes. It will show who Jesus is, God almighty, and how believers were really the strong,

    it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power 1Cor.15:43

  3. #63
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    Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    There is a lack of familiarity above on shepherding.

    The shepherd had two tools to tend the flock.

    One was his long wooden hooked staff that he would use to tend and guide and rescue wayward sheep within his flock that he cared over.

    The other tool was his rod of iron. It was not used on his sheep at all. The shepherds rod of iron’s sole purpose was to destroy and kill the ravenous wolves that would come and try to harm the shepherd’s flock.

    Never was a rod of iron used on sheep.
    Never was a rod of iron used to subjegated, control, or shepherd wolves.
    It was a tool solely of destruction of evil.

    In Psalms, David uses the correct analogy of the rod of iron being able to dash a pottery jar to pieces, showing its destructive use and intent. John later in Revelation, quotes the Psalms, knowing his audience then at least, understood what the shepherd’s rod of iron was used for.

    Smiting evil; never subjegating.

    Food for thought for any today not familiar with the distinction of uses between Shepherd’s staff and shepherd’s rod of iron.
    So true, that is why it is so strange when Rev 2 and Rev 19 clearly state that an iron rod rather than the staff will be used to shepherd the nations:
    Rev 19 And out of his mouth goes a sharp [two-edged] sword, that with it he might smite the nations; and he shall shepherd them with an iron rod

    Rev 2: And he that overcomes, and he that keeps unto the end my works, to him will I give authority over the nations,
    And he shall shepherd them with an iron rod

    Possibly one reason for these exceptions is that the nations start off the Messianic Age with this widespread destruction, for example the area of Edom becomes a burning wasteland. There is winepress of wrath outside Jerusalem, the judgement of Jehosaphat. The nations are disciplined and some nations destroyed. "dashed to pieces like pottery". It will be a great day of wrath against the nations.

    But then after that initial destruction and judgment of nations at the second coming, many verses indicate the survival of some nations, especially Israel.
    Isaiah 2, Isaiah 65, Isaiah 66, Zech 14, Zech 12, Joel 2, Joel 3, Ezekiel 39, Ezekiel 40-48, Zech 13, Rev 2, Rev 20, 1 Cor 6:1-4, Dan 7

    So a future of we both destruction and strict rule is described for the future of nations, this is possibly the reason they are "shepherded" with an iron rod, instead of "destroyed" with an iron rod.

  4. #64
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    Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    The entire earth is given to the children of God as inheritance. The "dominions" that ultimately serve and obey him (Dan.7:27) are those which Jesus delegates as reward for faithfulness (Lk.19:17).

    Ruling with Jesus is displayed by love, joy, peace, patience (the fruits of the Spirit) and is the result of being born again (made alive in Christ). This rule with Christ isn't apparent from Daniel, Isaiah, or the other prophets, but its the truth and it's known since Jesus conquered death. As I told you, Pilate thought he was ruling Jesus. He had it backwards.

    Clay pots being broken to shivers is the end of the pot. It's the result of not submitting to the rule of Christ (Lk.19:14). You and I have submitted to his rule.

    Knowing God through Christ should give believers a different perspective on what life and death is.

    We should now see that those who tried to kill Jesus, the Prophets, the Apostles and the rest of his people (those who went against [New] Jerusalem, have rotted away.

    What these nations are after Jesus's great victory over mankind's enemies (sin and death) is a mixture of believers and unbelievers, which is what we have now. The Feast of Tabernacles is to acknowledge our living in temporary shelters as we gather in the harvest, which is what we have now. The Jerusalem we go to is the new one (Heb.12:22). No rain = no growth, no understanding, no blessing.

    Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1Cor.6:3

    We won't settle disputes between angels in the next world. They will be condemned for mistreating those who gave no offence.

    Condemnation is the result of rejecting the mercy of God and embraing justification by law. That's what the Corinthians were doing, so Paul said,

    Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? (vs.7)

    Why is it better to lay down, instead of desiring litigation?

    for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Psa.143:2
    I'm agreeing with some aspects of your post, yes we are in a kingdom now and do rule already, we are seated with Christ in heavenly places in the spiritual realm. But that concept does not in any manner contradict the many verses in the Bible that predict Godly rule on earth after the second coming.

    I also agree that nations will be dashed to pieces presumably with the same rod of iron. The Bible is repeatedly clear that it's a day of wrath on the nations. Some will be destroyed forever (Edom). The armies of the world shall be destroyed at Jehosaphat. The nations will be judged then. So I agree that it is a dramatic day of wrath against the nations.

    But in addition to that day of wrath please explain why God chose to insert the word "shepherd" with the rod of iron, rather than "destroy" with a rod of iron. Looking forward to your response on that.

  5. #65
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    Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I'm agreeing with some aspects of your post, yes we are in a kingdom now and do rule already, we are seated with Christ in heavenly places in the spiritual realm. But that concept does not in any manner contradict the many verses in the Bible that predict Godly rule on earth after the second coming.

    I also agree that nations will be dashed to pieces presumably with the same rod of iron. The Bible is repeatedly clear that it's a day of wrath on the nations. Some will be destroyed forever (Edom). The armies of the world shall be destroyed at Jehosaphat. The nations will be judged then. So I agree that it is a dramatic day of wrath against the nations.

    But in addition to that day of wrath please explain why God chose to insert the word "shepherd" with the rod of iron, rather than "destroy" with a rod of iron. Looking forward to your response on that.
    Excuse my interruption, I am aware that your question was not directed at me.


    Maybe because in the 1000 year reign there will be no more merciful-shepherding ?

    Today, God's children and also the children of disobedience both, God send rain upon both because of His mercy.
    But the day of mercy will end.

    After that day, every knee will bow, every knee, not just the obedient knees but also the willfully-disobedient knees will bow too.

    Possibly the disobedient will only bow then because of just only the presence of that Holy rod of iron on Earth ?
    Where as today the disobedient still remain in rebellion because mercy still reigns, and the rod of iron is not seen nor demonstrated to them.
    So, let them eat drink and be merry.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
    Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

  6. #66
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    Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
    Excuse my interruption, I am aware that your question was not directed at me.


    Maybe because in the 1000 year reign there will be no more merciful-shepherding ?

    Today, God's children and also the children of disobedience both, God send rain upon both because of His mercy.
    But the day of mercy will end.

    After that day, every knee will bow, every knee, not just the obedient knees but also the willfully-disobedient knees will bow too.

    Possibly the disobedient will only bow then because of just only the presence of that Holy rod of iron on Earth ?
    Where as today the disobedient still remain in rebellion because mercy still reigns, and the rod of iron is not seen nor demonstrated to them.
    So, let them eat drink and be merry.
    No problem, feel free to join in. Yes I agree with you. Those who don't have the law in their hearts tend to easily rebel, the shepherding with the iron rod will be necessary in those days.

    I was just curious from an amill perspective what they think of nations being shepherded. Amills believe all the unbelieving nations will be destroyed with the iron rod. Yet the text says shepherded with the iron rod, not destroyed.

  7. #67
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    Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    No problem, feel free to join in. Yes I agree with you. Those who don't have the law in their hearts tend to easily rebel, the shepherding with the iron rod will be necessary in those days.

    I was just curious from an amill perspective what they think of nations being shepherded. Amills believe all the unbelieving nations will be destroyed with the iron rod. Yet the text says shepherded with the iron rod, not destroyed.
    Okay, thanks.

    Yeah, I tried to explain my take to answer that question you presented.
    Today, before the day of mercy and grace ends, the Earth is still presently ruled/shepherded by mercy, His Mercy.

    After this day of mercy ends though (when Christ returns and during His millennia rule) the Earth wont be ruled by mercy nor grace anymore, but ruled/shepherded by a stern rod of iron, swift-justice if you will.

    The words; ruled and shepherded are interchangeable in this context.
    Although I have not looked up the text's original language referenced in your question, I am willing to assume that the word's call number there will bear my assumption as fair to accurate.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
    Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

  8. #68
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    Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
    Okay, thanks.

    Yeah, I tried to explain my take to answer that question you presented.
    Today, before the day of mercy and grace ends, the Earth is still presently ruled/shepherded by mercy, His Mercy.

    After this day of mercy ends though (when Christ returns and during His millennia rule) the Earth wont be ruled by mercy nor grace anymore, but ruled/shepherded by a stern rod of iron, swift-justice if you will.

    The words; ruled and shepherded are interchangeable in this context.
    Although I have not looked up the text's original language referenced in your question, I am willing to assume that the word's call number there will bear my assumption as fair to accurate.
    Yes you are correct, the Greek word is poimoina. It means to shepherd, or to rule. I agree with your swift justice approach, us both being premills its easier to understand that period.

  9. #69

    Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    But in addition to that day of wrath please explain why God chose to insert the word "shepherd" with the rod of iron, rather than "destroy" with a rod of iron. Looking forward to your response on that.
    Because judgment can fall on unbelievers at any time (Lk.13:1-9, Rom.1:18). Sometimes, unbelievers that see things like this come to faith in Jesus (Rev.11:13, Isa.26:16).

    But God is very patient. Frankly, when we read prophecy about Christ shepherding the nations, we should understand that he's talking about me and you,

    And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled Col.1:21

  10. #70
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    Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Because judgment can fall on unbelievers at any time (Lk.13:1-9, Rom.1:18). Sometimes, unbelievers that see things like this come to faith in Jesus (Rev.11:13, Isa.26:16).

    But God is very patient. Frankly, when we read prophecy about Christ shepherding the nations, we should understand that he's talking about me and you,

    And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled Col.1:21
    In both Rev 2 and Rev 19, the context of shepherding of the nations occurs in the next age, not in this age. So I cannot agree with your explanation. They are shepherded with the rod of iron, a weapon, rather than the staff, yet they are still shepherded, not destroyed.

  11. #71

    Re: *ISAIAH AND THE NEW EARTH*

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    In both Rev 2 and Rev 19, the context of shepherding of the nations occurs in the next age, not in this age. So I cannot agree with your explanation. They are shepherded with the rod of iron, a weapon, rather than the staff, yet they are still shepherded, not destroyed.
    I see those passages as showing the manifestation of how life in this world truly was, like this,

    And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. Jn.12:47

    With,

    And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. Jn.9:39

    So salvation is offered to sinners by faith in him now, not after he appears again, as our Creator,

    And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. Isa.25:7-8

    Paul quoted this passage in 1Cor.15 concerning the bodily resurrection of believers, when Christ appears as God and death, the last enemy, is destroyed.

    So death is actually conquered by Christ before it's manifested to anyone who remained blind.

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