Page 25 of 25 FirstFirst ... 141516171819202122232425
Results 361 to 368 of 368

Thread: Fear of losing salvation...

  1. #361
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    In a place of praying hard and trusting God while battling on my knees!
    Posts
    31,826
    Blog Entries
    96

    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    In my posting there was NO interpretation. They dealt with plain statements.

    You did not counter, or show to be incorrect, ONE of these statements. They therefore stand.

    Did you really read your extract from the "Expositors Greek Testament". It agrees with me in part.

    As to 2nd Corinthians 12, I repeat my exposition of verse 4:

    1 "It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
    2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught AWAY to the third heaven.
    3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
    4 How that he was caught AWAY into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."


    Based on the single word "UP" in verse 4, Christians declare Paradise to be ABOVE - that is, in heaven. But this is not so. When King James commissioned the 49 best students of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek to translate the original texts into English, his motivation was to get the common man to read the Bible and see that the Roman Catholic Church was an illegal "Vicar of Christ", and move away from the superstition that the Roman Church used to subjugate the common man from the pulpit. For all their high caliber, our esteemed translators came out of this dark age of Roman dominion, and though they did a magnificent job, there are clear indicators that they too suffered from 1,200 years of Catholic myth. One is that they use the word "hell". But "hell" is a concept and not a Biblical word. Another display of the effects of Romanism is found in Acts 12:4 where they translated the word "Pascha" as "Easter".

    These two events could not be more different. One is the Passover, a Jewish Feast which moves sightly in date because the Jewish Calendar is different to the Gregorian. But "Easter" is a pagan feast to the fertility goddess Ischtar. And because the occult is based on the stars, Easter falls on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox of the northern hemisphere. Its symbol is the rabbit because of their amazing breeding rate. But our esteemed translators decided on "Easter" instead of the "Passover" simply because of Roman tradition. So when the came to 2nd Corinthians 12, they automatically assumed that because the Roman Church had taught that dead men go to heaven, that Paradise was "UP".

    The Greek word "harpazo" means "CAUGHT AWAY". It denotes being snatched or plucked to another point geographically. But here's the catch. "Harpazo" DENOTES MOVEMENT BUT NOT DIRECTION. It is correctly translated in Acts 8:39 where, "... the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, ... ." So turning to Young's Literal Translation we see the same text of 2nd Corinthians 12:1-4 (YLT) read;

    1 "To boast, really, is not profitable for me, for I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
    2 I have known a man in Christ, fourteen years ago--whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body I have not known, God hath known--such an one being caught away unto the third heaven;
    3 and I have known such a man--whether in the body, whether out of the body, I have not known, God hath known, --
    4 that he was caught away to the paradise, and heard unutterable sayings, that it is not possible for man to speak."


    So Paul was "caught AWAY", not UP - in both cases. And what is more, the grammar indicates TWO DISTINCT JOURNEYS by Paul. Verse 3 starts with the word "and". The Greek word there is "kai". This is what Strong says about "kai": "apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc." (Strong's Exhaustive Greek & Hebrew Dictionary). In layman's terms that means that the word "AND" shows another and different thing, and also can show a sequence. E.g. "Bread AND butter" - two different things. Or, e.g. "He baked bread AND put butter on it" - showing two things and in a sequence. This, together with the construction of the sentences, allows no other understanding except that Paul MADE TWO JOURNIES. He was "caught away" to the third heaven, and some time later he was "caught away" to Paradise. This is further supported in that the bible reveals much about what goes on in heaven, so there is no restriction on Paul in what he reports about heaven. But God has put a death sentence on a Necromancer - anyone who tries to contact the dead. So Paul must say, off Paradise, "... and heard unutterable sayings, that it is not possible for man to speak", BECAUSE IT IS A PART OF HADES - THE WAITING PLACE OF THE DEAD UNDER THE EARTH.

    As shown in my posting #184, Paradise is DOWN - in the heart of the earth. It is the place that the souls of dead men wait for resurrection. In Acts Chapter 2, our Lord was in Hades but was not "held" by its Gates. After three days He was resurrected - released from it. But David, who is also there, was till there 50 days after Christ's release. And so the dead in Christ must wait until the "trumpet of God", which is sounded when Christ comes, to be resurrected (1st Cor.15:23, 1st Thess.4:16-17).

    SINCE OUR LORD JESUS WENT TO PARADISE IN HADES IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH, THERE IS NOT A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE IN THE BIBLE THAT IT HAS MOVED. The Dead RISE in every case, indicating that they come from BELOW. A dead man is NAKED (2nd Cor.5:1-4) and a man cannot appear naked before God. A dead man is so unclean that if a son touches his dead father son within seven days of the Passover, he is unclean and forbidden (1) to travel with the congregation, and (2) to feast the Passover until a month later (Nu.9:10-11).

    The DEAD CANNOT appear before God. Their place is Hades, which means "UNSEEN". God cannot look upon the dead. Death is His enemy, and the dead are both unclean and naked. They wait UNDER THE EARTH.

    Revelation 2:7 is "the Paradise OF GOD". It cannot be the Paradise that Jesus went to at death for the malefactor was there. The Paradise of God is ONLY for OVERCOMERS - that is, A REWARD for the best Christians. What REWARD was due to the malefactor who admitted his deserving of the death sentence, and his mocking of Jesus at first?

    But, you know brother, I bet you won't read this posting. You didn't even read the "Expositors Greek Testament" properly. My hope is that there are some silent ones out there who will read and contemplate. For them I write - not you.
    Then lets begin with a "first" step (first Biblical example of being taken by God)

    Enoch was taken:

    v 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

    So, where did He take him?

    Also, to be "alive" in Christ (believing unto Him) means one is not dead and thus, when a person who is born-again passes away, they ARE before God.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  2. #362
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    6,326

    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Then lets begin with a "first" step (first Biblical example of being taken by God)

    Enoch was taken:

    v 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

    So, where did He take him?

    Also, to be "alive" in Christ (believing unto Him) means one is not dead and thus, when a person who is born-again passes away, they ARE before God.
    Your tactics are so transparent. I have continuously spoken of DEAD MEN - and you bring Enoch - A LIVING MAN. That is really twisted brother.

    And since you have no comment on the posting, do I take it then that you agree with the meaning of "harpazo" and that the grammar insists on TWO JOURNEYS by Paul during his 14 year training?

    Finally, did you know that the term "alive in Christ" does not appear in the whole Bible?

    What kind of a discussion is this?

  3. #363
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    In a place of praying hard and trusting God while battling on my knees!
    Posts
    31,826
    Blog Entries
    96

    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

    Originally Posted by Walls

    Your tactics are so transparent. I have continuously spoken of DEAD MEN - and you bring Enoch - A LIVING MAN. That is really twisted brother.

    Nope, you misconstrued my post.

    Enoch is a person "taken" by God and is documented in the Bible as the first example of what "rapture" (taken) is all about.

    So the question stands... WHERE did God take him?

    And since you have no comment on the posting, do I take it then that you agree with the meaning of "harpazo" and that the grammar insists on TWO JOURNEYS by Paul during his 14 year training?



    Based on all the examples in the Bible of God "taking" people... he's about the 4th one (I think), so we'll get to his step. We're at step 1.

    Finally, did you know that the term "alive in Christ" does not appear in the whole Bible?



    It's a semantic. When you became born-again in Christ (believed unto Christ), is this NOT being made "alive" in Christ?

    By the way, here is a ton of scriptures since "the term" isn't in your Bible, but the MEANING of being Alive in Christ, is clearly all over the Bible: https://www.openbible.info/topics/made_alive_in_christ

    Why, the FIRST verse of Ephesians kicks right in refuting ya

    v1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

    This verse means... "alive in Christ." You may not agree but the verse says what it says!

    Let me know if you need more (to ignore).


    What kind of a discussion is this?



    One where you are being stubborn.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  4. #364
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    8,268
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    May I suggest that you open a new thread with this subject. It is of interest to many and by now I guess not more than a dozen are following this thread. I will answer you if you open a new thread. The exposition of John 14 is at least 2 Letter/A4 pages, never mind an adequate exposition of New Jerusalem.
    There are many Threads on the timeline for the New Jerusalem and NHNE already. I don't think you need a new thread to respond but if you won't, then it's OK. The link to the Thread below (which you participated in) is what I could find following a quick search.

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...t=heaven+earth

  5. #365
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    6,326

    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    There are many Threads on the timeline for the New Jerusalem and NHNE already. I don't think you need a new thread to respond but if you won't, then it's OK. The link to the Thread below (which you participated in) is what I could find following a quick search.

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...t=heaven+earth
    I agree. Lotsa good stuff out there. I even appreciate the bad stuff for it gives the new Christian food for though without the pressure of a congregation. And it makes the older Christians dance on their toes.

    Go well brother.

  6. #366
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    6,326

    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Nope, you misconstrued my post.

    Enoch is a person "taken" by God and is documented in the Bible as the first example of what "rapture" (taken) is all about.

    So the question stands... WHERE did God take him?



    Based on all the examples in the Bible of God "taking" people... he's about the 4th one (I think), so we'll get to his step. We're at step 1.



    It's a semantic. When you became born-again in Christ (believed unto Christ), is this NOT being made "alive" in Christ?

    By the way, here is a ton of scriptures since "the term" isn't in your Bible, but the MEANING of being Alive in Christ, is clearly all over the Bible: https://www.openbible.info/topics/made_alive_in_christ

    Why, the FIRST verse of Ephesians kicks right in refuting ya

    v1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

    This verse means... "alive in Christ." You may not agree but the verse says what it says!

    Let me know if you need more (to ignore).



    One where you are being stubborn.
    Aaahhh - semantics. The new excuse to say what you like and make it to mean something else. Just like your FIRST verse of Ephesians.

    NO BROTHER! It is the first verse of Chapter 2!

    But let us consider it. Ephesians 2:1 starts with "AND".Ephesians 1:19-23 leads up to it, AND Ephesians 2:1-6 is the rest of the context. Together they read:

    19 "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
    20 Which he wrought IN Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
    21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
    22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
    23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. (KJV)
    1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places IN Christ Jesus:"


    It is as once obvious that all the standing, status and privileges mentioned here are NOT PRESENTLY ACHIEVED, but stem form us being IN Christ. I would normally expound on this, but you would (i) not read it, (ii) read it incorrectly, (iii) not understand this and (iv) twist it from its meaning citing "semantics" as your excuse for "poetic license". But even the most cursory reader will note that you have (i) ripped one verse from its context, (ii) proposed an absurdity and (iii) and misrepresented "alive in Christ" badly.

    I think our discussion is over. I nevertheless wish you all of God's bountiful blessings, and ... see you in Paradise in Hades if the Lord delays His coming

  7. #367
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    In a place of praying hard and trusting God while battling on my knees!
    Posts
    31,826
    Blog Entries
    96

    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Aaahhh - semantics. The new excuse to say what you like and make it to mean something else. Just like your FIRST verse of Ephesians.

    NO BROTHER! It is the first verse of Chapter 2!

    But let us consider it. Ephesians 2:1 starts with "AND".Ephesians 1:19-23 leads up to it, AND Ephesians 2:1-6 is the rest of the context. Together they read:

    19 "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
    20 Which he wrought IN Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
    21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
    22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
    23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. (KJV)
    1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places IN Christ Jesus:"


    It is as once obvious that all the standing, status and privileges mentioned here are NOT PRESENTLY ACHIEVED, but stem form us being IN Christ. I would normally expound on this, but you would (i) not read it, (ii) read it incorrectly, (iii) not understand this and (iv) twist it from its meaning citing "semantics" as your excuse for "poetic license". But even the most cursory reader will note that you have (i) ripped one verse from its context, (ii) proposed an absurdity and (iii) and misrepresented "alive in Christ" badly.

    I think our discussion is over. I nevertheless wish you all of God's bountiful blessings, and ... see you in Paradise in Hades if the Lord delays His coming
    Are you saying that those who believe are still dead and NOT alive in Christ?

    Yes... I failed in saying chapter 2, even when I had posted the verse.

    I do know you will drive every one of your post to highlight the theology you are pushing. The link I posted has multiple verses teaching about being ALIVE in Christ... are you gonna render each of the many verses, only to point out the theology you are pushing SO THAT you fail to see how those many verses show that when a person believes in Christ, they ARE MADE ALIVE?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  8. #368
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    6,326

    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Are you saying that those who believe are still dead and NOT alive in Christ?

    Yes... I failed in saying chapter 2, even when I had posted the verse.

    I do know you will drive every one of your post to highlight the theology you are pushing. The link I posted has multiple verses teaching about being ALIVE in Christ... are you gonna render each of the many verses, only to point out the theology you are pushing SO THAT you fail to see how those many verses show that when a person believes in Christ, they ARE MADE ALIVE?
    "Are you saying ..., are you saying ..., are you saying ... " - ad nauseam. Have you ever thought of just answering what I actually said?

    In the most courteous way, and with all respect, "our discussion is over". If you want a response from me, start a new thread with your exegesis on scriptures which show dead men going to heaven, OR, better still, with your exegesis on what the threat is for the slothful Christian when our Lord returns. By the way, I don't mind long pregnant postings. One needs them sometimes - not to prove what scripture already says, for that is mostly plain, but to undo erroneous concepts that nave been held for a long time.

    But even if I'm wrong, the time for your one-liners is over if you want any kind of comprehensive debate. Lay forth your verses and comment on them. But please spare us the excuse "they actually mean something else." If a scripture is metaphorical, a type, a shadow or a parable, it will be indicated in the text. Then, you have one option only - interpret scripture with scripture. Agreed brother?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 15 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 15 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Losing Salvation Through a Vow and Regaining It
    By Hermit7 in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: Jun 25th 2013, 12:17 AM
  2. Replies: 16
    Last Post: Aug 12th 2009, 04:12 AM
  3. Work out your salvation with FEAR!?
    By My heart's Desire in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: May 16th 2009, 08:45 PM
  4. Specific Process of Losing Salvation
    By reformedct in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: Dec 26th 2008, 10:45 PM
  5. Replies: 70
    Last Post: Aug 6th 2008, 03:50 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •