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Thread: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

  1. #61
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    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Let me clarify. Verse 6 refers to Christ resurrection and not our resurrection. Christ body is the 1st resurrection from the dead. He is the 1st resurrection referred to in verse 6.

    It says, "Blessed is he who hath part in the 1st Resurrection", is referring to the saints beheaded being a part of resurrections of Christ. On such the 2nd death hath no power. Because we belong to Christ and will be with him at the general resurrection of the dead. Which is until the 1000 years have finished, being after the 1000 year period.

    If you are arguing that the first resurrection is meaning Christ's resurrection in verse 6, why would you then be arguing that the first resurrection is after the thousand years, that according to verse 5 and you making that when the first resurrection occurs?

    Here's what the text would have to mean according to the way you appear to be understanding it.

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is Christ's resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in Christ's resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    If in verse 6 the first resurrection is meaning Christ's resurrection, it has to mean that in verse 5 also. Even though I can see the logic in it when applying it to verse 6, I can't see this same logic in it when applying it to verse 5 as well.

  2. #62
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    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Just because the verse states they shall reign with him a thousand years, and then places this segment at the end of the sentence does not mean it had to have occurred afterward.

    Keep in mind, it is separated with the conjunction "and".

    It would be the same truth as saying, "the church had a bake sale and before they sold to the public, the preacher said a prayer over the food." It would have the same meaning and still be truthful to say, "The church had a bake sale, and the preacher prayed over the food." If you were there, then you would have known the prayer was before they sold to the public and would not think otherwise.

    The "and" does not place the time event after the 1st resurrection. It merely states that "and shall reign with him a thousand years". Does not signify order of events.

    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    Your analogy is good, it makes a good point. I'm not yet convinced it applies in this case though, what we have been discussing in Rev 20:4-6.

  3. #63
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    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    HI Christinme,

    Yes a soul can exist without a body.

    Rev 6 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

    That occurred before the second coming. It is only at the second coming that the resurrection occurs according to 1 Cor 15: For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

    Hopefully you can see that the "coming alive" relates to all those in Christ receiving resurrection bodies at the second coming. Sure the dead do get resurrected a moment earlier, but I mean all in Christ get resurrected on that day of the second coming.
    I don't know how much I should go into this because it might distract from the thread … if you want me to address what you wrote just let me know …
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  4. #64

    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If you are arguing that the first resurrection is meaning Christ's resurrection in verse 6, why would you then be arguing that the first resurrection is after the thousand years, that according to verse 5 and you making that when the first resurrection occurs?

    Here's what the text would have to mean according to the way you appear to be understanding it.

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is Christ's resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in Christ's resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    If in verse 6 the first resurrection is meaning Christ's resurrection, it has to mean that in verse 5 also. Even though I can see the logic in it when applying it to verse 6, I can't see this same logic in it when applying it to verse 5 as well.

    This is not Christ's resurrections for the rest of the dead that lived not again. These have no part in Christ and were never had any part with Christ.

    You wrote:
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is Christ's resurrection.

    So again, there are 2 resurrections and one (1000 year period);
    1) The 1st resurrection (our natural resurrection of our body at the 2nd coming) for both (beheaded and the rest of the dead). That is not until the 1000 years are finished mentioned in verse 5.
    2) The 1st resurrection (referring to the resurrection of Christ) in verse 6. Blessed are those who hath part in this one. These are those who had part in Christ's body. The 2nd death has no power.

    Now read it again


    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

  5. #65
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    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    This is not Christ's resurrections for the rest of the dead that lived not again. These have no part in Christ and were never had any part with Christ.

    You wrote:
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is Christ's resurrection.

    So again, there are 2 resurrections and one (1000 year period);
    1) The 1st resurrection (our natural resurrection of our body at the 2nd coming) for both (beheaded and the rest of the dead). That is not until the 1000 years are finished mentioned in verse 5.
    2) The 1st resurrection (referring to the resurrection of Christ) in verse 6. Blessed are those who hath part in this one. These are those who had part in Christ's body. The 2nd death has no power.

    Now read it again


    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    That doesn't make sense to me … I think in both v5 and v6 the first resurrection refers to the same thing … Christ's resurrection and our participation in it … so in v5 it is referring to those in v4 who "lived and reigned with Christ" and is not referring to the "rest of the dead" …

    Also many manuscripts don't have "a thousand years" in verse 4 … my understanding is all those who become believers up and until the 2nd coming live and reign with Christ up and until the 2nd coming … on earth when they are still on earth and in heaven when they go to heaven.
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
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  6. #66

    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    That doesn't make sense to me … I think in both v5 and v6 the first resurrection refers to the same thing … Christ's resurrection and our participation in it … so in v5 it is referring to those in v4 who "lived and reigned with Christ" and is not referring to the "rest of the dead" …

    Also many manuscripts don't have "a thousand years" in verse 4 … my understanding is all those who become believers up and until the 2nd coming live and reign with Christ up and until the 2nd coming … on earth when they are still on earth and in heaven when they go to heaven.
    Not even close, vs 5 & vs 6 are not the same thing at all.

    Verse 5 is the sinners and they live not again until the 1000 years are finished and they have no part with Christ. But will live again after the 1000 years.
    Verse 6 is the saints and they have part in the 1st resurrection (which is Christ resurrection). The 2nd death has no power over them. They reign with Christ for 1000 years. They were beheaded and their souls live.

    Verse 4 & 6 are the same group of people, being saints of Christ
    Verse 5 are the sinners who are lost.

  7. #67
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    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Not even close, vs 5 & vs 6 are not the same thing at all.

    Verse 5 is the sinners and they live not again until the 1000 years are finished and they have no part with Christ. But will live again after the 1000 years.
    Verse 6 is the saints and they have part in the 1st resurrection (which is Christ resurrection). The 2nd death has no power over them. They reign with Christ for 1000 years. They were beheaded and their souls live.

    Verse 4 & 6 are the same group of people, being saints of Christ
    Verse 5 are the sinners who are lost.
    Yes I understand that and I agree … but I don't think you can say that "the first resurrection" used in two sentences right after each other refers to TWO different things … and I don't think it is necessary … remember there were no verse indicators in the original manuscripts. So I think that the first resurrection in both places refers to those in v4 and v6 and NOT those in v5 (they are not part of this first resurrection and yes they do not live until the 1000 years are finished).
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  8. #68

    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Yes I understand that and I agree … but I don't think you can say that "the first resurrection" used in two sentences right after each other refers to TWO different things … and I don't think it is necessary … remember there were no verse indicators in the original manuscripts. So I think that the first resurrection in both places refers to those in v4 and v6 and NOT those in v5 (they are not part of this first resurrection and yes they do not live until the 1000 years are finished).
    The 1st resurrection cannot before the 1000 year and after the 1000 year period, and both be termed as "the first resurrection". One would have to be the first, the other the second resurrection. That is if one occurred in verse 4 then 1000 years later would not call another one the 1st resurrection of the dead.

    It states in vs 5, "until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

    Then in vs 6 states Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. Yet these are saints if they are blessed and holy

    Rev 20:
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

  9. #69
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    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    The 1st resurrection cannot before the 1000 year and after the 1000 year period, and both be termed as "the first resurrection". One would have to be the first, the other the second resurrection. That is if one occurred in verse 4 then 1000 years later would not call another one the 1st resurrection of the dead.

    It states in vs 5, "until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

    Then in vs 6 states Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. Yet these are saints if they are blessed and holy

    Rev 20:
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    I didn't say the first resurrection happened before the 1000 years and after the 1000 years (seems to me you are the one saying that, read divaD post 61 again because he also seems to think that is what you are saying) … the first resurrection is Christ's and those in verse 4 and verse 6 participate in it (which their participation can happen up until right before the end of the 1000 years) … those in vs 5 (the rest of the dead) they are specifically excluded from the 1st resurrection and that is why they don't live until AFTER the 1000 years and they do not reign with Christ or partake of the first resurrection. Again remember that the original manuscripts don't indicate verses or I think even punctuation … so one can understand vs 4 to 6 to be all one thought ...
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  10. #70

    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    I didn't say the first resurrection happened before the 1000 years and after the 1000 years (seems to me you are the one saying that, read divaD post 61 again because he also seems to think that is what you are saying) … the first resurrection is Christ's and those in verse 4 and verse 6 participate in it (which their participation can happen up until right before the end of the 1000 years) … those in vs 5 (the rest of the dead) they are specifically excluded from the 1st resurrection and that is why they don't live until AFTER the 1000 years and they do not reign with Christ or partake of the first resurrection. Again remember that the original manuscripts don't indicate verses or I think even punctuation … so one can understand vs 4 to 6 to be all one thought ...
    I think I understand what you are saying. But no, I do not believe in a resurrection before the 1000 year period. I only believe there will be one resurrection and it will be after the 1000 year period. In fact, I do not believe it's a literal 1000 years, but the period between Christs resurrection and the 1st resurrection (2nd coming of Christ).

    But I believe the resurrection will be in two parts, yet at the same event. Those in Christ first to meet the Lord in the air. Then Christ will descend to the ground with the saints to wage war on the sinners who will be resurrected, to be destroyed.

  11. #71
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    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    I don't know how much I should go into this because it might distract from the thread … if you want me to address what you wrote just let me know …
    I feel the verse I quoted from, 1 Cor 15, is very specific to the topic at hand.

    In that verse we have the resurrection of the dead described as "coming alive" and occurring at the second coming.

    This is a match to the premill version of Rev 20, a resurrection of the dead, described as coming alive, at the timing of the second coming.

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    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Not saved again. But saved while they lived. They were saved before they were beheaded. Therefore, they were partakers in Christ. They had part in the 1st Resurrection. They were in Christs body
    I think many are making the mistake of not taking language at face value. God did not give us the Bible for us to take complicated secondary meanings from the text. It's difficult enough to have faith in the primary more obvious meaning.

    For example if there are two princes in line to be kings, no one refers to them as two kings. They are princes, or they are in line to be kings.

    If two students were studying to be engineers and are having a beer, would you say the two engineers were having a beer? Or the two students who aspired to be engineers are having a beer?

    These are martyrs who come alive, they are physically dead when they come alive. They are not living unbelievers.

  13. #73
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    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Let me clarify. Verse 6 refers to Christ resurrection and not our resurrection. Christ body is the 1st resurrection from the dead. He is the 1st resurrection referred to in verse 6.

    It says, "Blessed is he who hath part in the 1st Resurrection", is referring to the saints beheaded being a part of resurrections of Christ. On such the 2nd death hath no power. Because we belong to Christ and will be with him at the general resurrection of the dead. Which is until the 1000 years have finished, being after the 1000 year period.
    You say that like it's the only possible interpretation. Can you fault the premill interpretation that the first resurrection is the general resurrection of the righteous at the second coming?

    I think you are missing the context, the first resurrection is mentioned just after the martyrs came to life. The wording is "This is the first resurrection". By using the words "this is", the text is obviously referring to something just mentioned in context.
    The resurrection of Jesus is not mentioned then.
    The martyrs coming to life is mentioned then.

    Thus it is more likely that the phrase "This is the first resurrection" is referring to something in context, than something not even mentioned in context.

  14. #74
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    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Keep in mind. There is only one (1000 year period). The 2 groups; (beheaded souls and the rest of the dead which lived not again) were both confined within "the same" 1000 year period.

    And the 1st resurrection was until after the 1000 years were finished for both groups.

    These are key facts, regardless how confusing the surrounding verses may present themselves.
    This isn't accurate they don't end at the same time.


    The 1000 year binding ends in verse 7-10

    7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    So the binding ends when satan is released for his final assault but the reigning ends on the judgement day at the resurrection after satans release and final assault which ends with him being cast into the lake of fire verse 5 tells us this


    5
    (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

  15. #75

    Re: MILLENIUM: Future, not present

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    This isn't accurate they don't end at the same time.


    The 1000 year binding ends in verse 7-10

    7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    So the binding ends when satan is released for his final assault but the reigning ends on the judgement day at the resurrection after satans release and final assault which ends with him being cast into the lake of fire verse 5 tells us this


    5
    (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
    I think we are in agreement. The 1000 year period does actually end by the release of Satan from the Bottleless Pit. Then there will be 3-1/2 year period for the working of the antichrist, the man of sin (son of perdition) before the Lord returns and consumes him with the brightness of his coming.

    2 Thess 2:
    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    But all the 1000 year periods highlighted below in each of the 6 verses are all the same 1000 year periods. With start time and end time all within one same period of time. These are not multigroup periods of time, with each overlapping one another.

    Rev 20:
    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with C hrist a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

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