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Thread: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?

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  2. #32
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    Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Well, I disagree--I think the 4 kingdoms in Dan 2 are the same 4 kingdoms in Dan 7. And there is good reason to think so. That's why so many students of prophecy believe this--I'm hardly the odd one out here!
    Do you really think the masses have figured out all prophecy? It's not that simple for everyone to know.......

    Anyway, why would Danial in chapter 7 repeat the named four kingdoms in Dan 2 and assign them to animals without names?

    Note in chapter 8 MP and Greece are assigned as to animals but there are named. In addition the animals they are assigned are different to those they are supposed assigned in Dan 7. In Dan 7 MP is a bear and Grecia a leopard. In chapter 8 MP is as a ram and Greece as a goat.

    However the most important thing to note is the third kingdom Greece is divided in to four parts. These four parts make up the fourth kingdom!!!!! The four parts being lion, bear, leopard, beast.

    Again the four kingdoms in Dan 2 are NOT the same four in Dan 7.

    If claiming the Roman Empire then who are the four parts?

    The 4th Kingdom is ancient Rome, which indeed is in the past. But Daniel indicates this Kingdom would manage to survive until the end of the age.
    Actually Rome is a colony of Greece which means we are still living in the third kingdom awaiting for it to be divided into four parts ushering in the 4th kingdom upon the earth. A kingdom from Hell!

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    Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    The solution to the seven kings is time sentitive. When the passage was written five had fallen, the sixth was, and the seventh was yet to come. These are kings, not empires. Empires are symbolized by beasts.
    These kings are part of the beast, or serve the beast, or sping from the beast. It is a dynasty of seven kings at the time of the tribulation and wrath. Since John said one was in power at his time, then this is ancient history.
    No, no no brother. The Seven Kingdoms [THAT ARISE like Mountains Arise] are REDUCED to the 7 Kings that are in power when the Beast Powers LOSE DOMINION !! This is done for a specific reason. God is trying to give us this HUGE CLUE about who the Last Beast Head is. He is different from the first 6 because unlike the first 6 he never passes his Beast Kingdom on to another, thus its not a BEAST KINGDOM like the other 6, instead THE LAST BEAST is just ONE MAN who both ARISES and FALLS. That is why God reduces the Kingdoms to Kings who Fall. 5 Have fallen .......ONE IS and thus must fall if there is a 7th coming..........and one is not come yet.....( BIG CLUE HERE The Last Beast will only rule a SHORT TIME...BOOM...which means he has to be a MAN {666} a Rev. 13 describes him. The big Reveal is the LAST BEAST is ONE MAN, not a series of Kings who rule a Beast Kingdoms. The proof of this is Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20.

    Dan.7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    The Last Beast is a MAN....that is why we get the REDUCTION of the 7 Kingdoms to Kings that FALL...........He both Arises AND Falls unlike any other Beast Kingdom, thus the Little Horn is called a LITTLE HORN of Power..........Hes like a Kingdom Horn except hes a Little Horn {ONE MAN KINGDOM}.

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    Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    The solution to the seven kings is time sentitive. When the passage was written five had fallen,
    Why do you think Rev 17 was during John's time? Could not John have been seeing a future vision wherein at that time in the future 5 had fallen?

    A clue to understanding the timing of rev 17 is the setting is in the wilderness. When does scripture state when this world becomes a wilderness.

    Rev 17
    3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness:

    Notice the same wilderness and the reference to 3.5 years which coincides with the second coming.

    Rev 12
    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


    You see rev 17 occurs just prior to the second coming when the false supper of the lamb occurs.

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    Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Do you really think the masses have figured out all prophecy? It's not that simple for everyone to know.......

    Anyway, why would Danial in chapter 7 repeat the named four kingdoms in Dan 2 and assign them to animals without names?

    Note in chapter 8 MP and Greece are assigned as to animals but there are named. In addition the animals they are assigned are different to those they are supposed assigned in Dan 7. In Dan 7 MP is a bear and Grecia a leopard. In chapter 8 MP is as a ram and Greece as a goat.

    However the most important thing to note is the third kingdom Greece is divided in to four parts. These four parts make up the fourth kingdom!!!!! The four parts being lion, bear, leopard, beast.

    Again the four kingdoms in Dan 2 are NOT the same four in Dan 7.

    If claiming the Roman Empire then who are the four parts?

    Actually Rome is a colony of Greece which means we are still living in the third kingdom awaiting for it to be divided into four parts ushering in the 4th kingdom upon the earth. A kingdom from Hell!
    Well, there are some good questions there, although I still believe what I do. Rome is the Kingdom that reigned in the time of Christ, and alone fits the final Kingdom whose tradition has been continuing up until the Coming of Christ.

    The assignment of animal symbols to these ancient kingdoms were not attempts at assigning exclusive animals to them, but rather, the assignment of particular characteristics, depending on the matter being described. Depending on how you're looking at these kingdoms, different animal characteristics can be assigned.

    For example, when looking at the characteristics of Alexander the Great's military style, you would assign a "leopard" to characterize him. He leapord attacked with great speed. But if you want to present his moral characteristics, you might want to see him as a goat, indiscriminating and uncaring.

    The use of 2 sets of stories, ch. 2 and ch. 7, about the same 4 kingdoms is completely consistent with Scriptures, which use this pattern of dual statement throughout the totality of Scriptures. It is the idea of confirming important truths by reference to 2 or 3 witnesses.

    I don't know why you assume Rome, the 4th Kingdom, has "4 parts?" It was the 3rd Kingdom, Greece, that broke up into 4 parts!

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    Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    I don't know why you assume Rome, the 4th Kingdom, has "4 parts?" It was the 3rd Kingdom, Greece, that broke up into 4 parts!
    It is the third kingdom Greece which will break into four parts. The four parts themselves ARE the 4th kingdom.

    Dan 8
    8 Therefore the he goat waxed (Greece) very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
    9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

    Who are the four notable ones wherein a little horn comes forth? Do we not see four in Dan 7 whereby a little horn arises??

    So the four notable ones MUST be the lion, bear, leopard, and beast and thus CANNOT involve Babylon or MP as for the division into four parts occurs AFTER Babylon and MP !!!! Proving the four in Dan 2 are not the four in Dan 7

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    Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    It is the third kingdom Greece which will break into four parts. The four parts themselves ARE the 4th kingdom.

    Dan 8
    8 Therefore the he goat waxed (Greece) very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
    9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

    Who are the four notable ones wherein a little horn comes forth? Do we not see four in Dan 7 whereby a little horn arises??

    So the four notable ones MUST be the lion, bear, leopard, and beast and thus CANNOT involve Babylon or MP as for the division into four parts occurs AFTER Babylon and MP !!!! Proving the four in Dan 2 are not the four in Dan 7
    As I point out in your new thread, Dan 8 is different from Dan 7. Dan 7 leads to the reign of Antichrist. Dan 8 leads to the reign of Antiochus 4. The "little horn" is not the "little horn" of the other.

    Just saying the 4 divided kingdoms of Greece are the 4 beasts of Dan 7 doesn't work. It's just a claim--there's no indication whatsoever, apart from the assumption that the 2 little horns are the same. They aren't, in my view.

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    Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    As I point out in your new thread, Dan 8 is different from Dan 7. Dan 7 leads to the reign of Antichrist. Dan 8 leads to the reign of Antiochus 4. The "little horn" is not the "little horn" of the other.

    Just saying the 4 divided kingdoms of Greece are the 4 beasts of Dan 7 doesn't work. It's just a claim--there's no indication whatsoever, apart from the assumption that the 2 little horns are the same. They aren't, in my view.
    But they have to be the same...…………….

    Focus. The four notable ones in Dan 8 are not the four in Dan 2 as the division into four parts happens after Babylon and MP. Thus the four notable ones then have to be the four beasts in Dan 7. Hence the four notable ones and the four beasts are the same then the little horns have to be the same!!! can you see this?

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    Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    The solution to the seven kings is time sentitive. When the passage was written five had fallen, the sixth was, and the seventh was yet to come. These are kings, not empires. Empires are symbolized by beasts.
    These kings are part of the beast, or serve the beast, or sping from the beast. It is a dynasty of seven kings at the time of the tribulation and wrath. Since John said one was in power at his time, then this is ancient history.
    In the face of the opposition to your posting, I just want to give my support to your statement. John is commissioned to show the Beast. The Book of Revelation is about (1) Christ at His REVEALING (Apokalypsis) - His Second Coming, and (2) His Antagonist at this time - a MAN. To show which POWER (or dynasty as you put it) that this Antagonist comes from, John shows a line of kings ALREADY DEAD IN HISTORY. This is to define who the Antagonist is. At John's time ALL Caesars are dead up to Caesar Domitian. One more is predicted a short time later, for a short time, to complete the definition of the dynasty. But it is ONLY the EIGHTH king that is FUTURE.

    • In Daniel the Antagonist is defined by the "people who destroy the city and the sanctuary" - Romans
    • In Revelation the Antagonist is defined by a city on seven hills and a line of dead kings with one still ruling - Rome

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    Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?

    Quote Originally Posted by hobie View Post
    You are on the right track. The first beast of Revelation 13 comes from the sea and in verse 3 the beast seems to receive a mortal wound, but it is then healed:

    And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast (Revelation 13:3).

    This is how the BBE version renders the text:

    And I saw one of his heads as if it had been given a death-wound; and his death-wound was made well: and all the earth was wondering at the beast.

    And the NIV translates it like this:

    One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

    The wound appears to be a mortal wound and yet it comes back.
    Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

    We are given the Leopard {Greece}. the Bear {Persia} and the Lion {Babylon} for a reason, to show us this is a Metaphoric Beast that spans 3000 some odd years, thus we see those Heads. Then in verse 3 we are told about a Mortal Wound of the FIGURATIVE BEAST, that was Rome, The Church delivered that Mortal Wound because the gates of hell can not prevail against Jesus/ Church. That which is taken out of the way in 2 Thess. 2 is not the Holy Spirit its the Church being Raptured, and thus blocking the Beast from coming back into existence, via our power with the Holy Spirit working through us. God uses us as vessels.

    The Beast is ONLY HEALED, once the Church is Raptured, and then this Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem AND the whole Mediterranean Sea Region {MSR}. Israel and the MSR has to be BEASTED OVER before there is a Beast, we see that in every instance !! No man is coming back to life, this is the Heads of the Gov. Beast that is wounded, not the man.

    If you look, this would last for 'time, and times, and half a time' or as we see the prophetic 1260 years of the Dark Ages. Papal supremacy of the Middle Ages ended in the year 1798, exactly 1260 years after Justinian’s decree established the Papacy as the supreme Christian power in 538 AD. In 1798, Napoleon’s army took the Pope captive and put him into exile.
    This is not scriptural at all brother as per the 1260, I go deeper than most on the 1260 because God has given me the full understanding. But not many people actually think the 1260 isn't a set number of days during the 70th week troubles. This whole papal angle is just way out there.

    Everything is designed around the MIDDLE OF THE WEEK, do you get that brother ? The 1260 is so important, even the Two-witnesses can be tracked via juxtaposing them against the 1260. I was given this, its a little complicated, but only because Men's Traditions stand in the way.

    In Daniel 12 Jesus {Man in Linen} tells Daniel that it will be a Time, Times and Half [time] from the time the Holy peoples are Conquered until ALL THESE WONDERS END !! Or in other words until the Second Coming ends all these wonders Daniel was being shown. But Daniel wants to know more, so in verse 8 we see Daniel asks the EXACT SAME QUESTION AGAIN. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

    Remember this question above for context.

    These next two Numbers Jesus gives unto Daniel are just like the FIRST NUMBER {1260} in that its a set number of days from the time being spoken of, until THESE WONDERS END {Second Coming}. So the 1290 comes 30 days before the 1260 and the 1335 comes 75 days before the 1260. Lets see if that fits.

    The Abomination of Desolation is the 1290, so Jesus told the Jews to flee when they saw the 1290, so what makes more sense ? Jesus would tell the Jews {who repent} to Flee Judea while the Beast is Conquering them or 30 days before he conquers them ? It sure can't be 30 days afterwards as some say, and its not 30 days into Jesus' 1000 year reign, that just kinda funny. Jesus gave hem A SIGN of when to Flee. So who commits the AoD ? The False Prophet, of course, we see it in Rev. 13, he places the IMAGE of the [E.U.] Beast in the Temple of God !! Rev. 13 says this !! Does anyone really think God's sign to flee would be on day 1260 ? the VERY DAY the beast is Conquering Jerusalem ? But all because we couldn't understand the 1260, 1290 and 1335 we have been in the dark, until these end times, when God is revealing His deep truths. I try the spirits and the understandings always. It passed the first test of does it fit and does it make sense.

    So what is the 1335 ? Its a BLESSING God says. What is a great Blessing to Israel during the 70th week ? THEY REPENT, Zechariah 13:8-9 says 1/3 of the Jews will repent and 2/3 will perish {refuse to repent}. Then Malachi 4:5-6 says that Elijah will be sent back BEFORE the Day of the Lord, which is Gods Wrath, which starts on day 1260 {actually day 1261, because there is 1260 days left, thus its called the 1260....Everything is BACKWARDS}. So Elijah and the other Witness, probably Moses, will preach Christ crucified unto Israel and 1/3 of them REPENT. Why else would they obey Jesus and Flee Judea unto Petra ? They read Matt. 24:15-17 because they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Messiah, just like Zechariah 12:10 says. This happens 1335 days from the Second Coming. Does this pass the smell test ? Of course it does, the Jews have to repent before they will know to Flee Judea unto Petra. Malachi 4:5-6 says Elijah is sent back BEFORE the DOTL begins {1260}. AND......The Two-witnesses DIE at the 6th Trump BEFORE the Beast dies at the 7th Vial, this if the both have OFFICES of 1260 days like the Bible states, and we know the Beast becomes The Beast on day 1260 {1261 actually}. So if they both have offices of 1260 days, that means the Two-witnesses have to show up before the Beast since the DIE before the Beast. It all fits because its factual.

    It was really believed that the era of papal power had come to an end forever. However, the prophecy says, “And his deadly wound was healed and all the world wondered after the beast” (Revelation 13:3).

    Since the Papacy had apparently lost its temporal or political status after the Pope's capture in 1798, it was, for all intents and purposes, dead. And yet it came back and regained its political status, and now is ready to become the eight which was one of the seven.

    Revelation 17:11
    11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
    I don't think its registering brother. I will just tell you, people who preach this are leading you down a rabbit hole.

    God Bless.

  11. #41

    Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not a Preterist. I believe, as I indicated, that the future reality of Antichrist was preceded by the historic Roman Empire, as it proceeded through 7 kings. These kingdoms were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Kingdom of Antichrist (modern Europe). Antichrist is himself the "8th king." Antichrist and his Kingdom are "yet to come."
    The Kingdom of the Antichrist is the impure woman of Revelation 17, and this is a church. Now, the power behind them is the dragon or Satan and it has been there since the start of these kingdoms/beasts.

    Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Now as to Antichrist power that receives the deadly would, need to look more closely at little horn beast in Daniel 7:

    Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    This is also a reference to:

    Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Continuing to follow the trail of seven heads and ten horns in the Bible leads us also to the beast in Revelation 17, the same beast destroyed in Revelation 19:20 as we have just seen.

    Revelation 17:
    3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
    4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
    5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
    6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

    Note the contrast of this woman with the woman found in Revelation 12. In scripture a woman commonly represents a church and the symbolic woman of Revelation 12 represents the righteous church of believers that brought forth Jesus and is described in admirable terms. Compare that with the symbolic woman described here in Revelation 17, the apostate church. Note that this church is described as the Mother of Harlots. There is only one Christian church that is self-described as the Mother church, and arose from the declining Roman Empire and persecuted the true believers. Its not hard to figure out..

  12. #42

    Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?

    Bible scholars agree that Daniel 2 tells about four world empires in the image, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome.

    Daniel 2:31-35 King James Version (KJV)
    31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
    32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
    33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
    34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
    35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

    The chapter ends in the future, at a time when a stone, “cut out without hands” smashes all the world empires until “no place was found for them” and then “the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever” in verse 44:

    Daniel 2:44 King James Version (KJV)
    44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

    Some crucial points, we know Babylon, Media-Persia, and after Greece, only one more kingdom comes, the iron in the legs, and the iron and clay in the feet and toes. Thus, after Greece only Rome appears, the last earthly kingdom, even if Rome changes form as the iron mixes with clay but it all the way to the end. So the power of Rome is basically transformed into the states of Europe, some strong others less so but still here. Then you see the chapter ends with God’s eternal kingdom being established.

    Though more details are given, Daniel 7 covers the same ground as Daniel 2, the four great world empires, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome:

    Daniel 7 King James Version (KJV)
    1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.
    2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
    3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
    4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
    5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
    6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
    7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    And, as with Daniel 2, the chapter ends with God establishing His eternal kingdom:

    Daniel 7:27 King James Version (KJV)
    27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

    And like Daniel 2, in Daniel 7 after Greece only one more kingdom arises, the fourth beast or Rome and the little horn that comes directly out of that beast. What arises from the Roman Empire and still is in existence today because, like the iron and iron and clay in Daniel 2, extends to the end of time, when God establishes His eternal kingdom?

    Rome is depicted first in the pagan stage (the fourth beast) and then the papal stage, the little horn that arises directly out of the beast and that remains part of it.

    So you see that as with Daniel 2, it share two crucial points with Daniel 7. First, after Greece only one more worldly power arises, the fourth beast (pagan Rome) and the little horn (papal Rome). Second, the chapter ends with God’s eternal kingdom being established.

    A check of history will reveal the successor to the Roman emperors. With the move of the Roman capitol to Constantinople, there was a political power vacuum that was quickly and willingly filled by the Bishop of Rome:

    [p. 269] Whatever Roman elements the barbarians and Arians left … [came] under the protection of the Bishop of Rome, who was the chief person there after the Emperor’s disappearance… [p. 270] The Roman Church in this way privily pushed itself into the place of the Roman World-Empire, of which it is the actual continuation; the empire has not perished, but has only undergone a transformation … That is no mere “clever remark,” but the recognition of the true state of the matter historically, and the most appropriate and fruitful way of describing the character of this Church. It still governs the nations … It is a political creation, and as imposing as a World-Empire, because the continuation of the Roman Empire. The Pope, who calls himself “King” and “Pontifex Maximus,” is Caesar’s successor.(Adolf Harnack, What Is Christianity? trans. by Thomas Bailey Saunders (2d ed., rev.; New York: Putnam, 1901), pp. 269, 270.)

    Now as to the little horn power that arises, look at this declaration from Pope Pius IX:

    "It is, therefore, by a particular decree of Divine Providence that, at the fall of the Roman Empire and its partition into separate kingdoms, the Roman Pontiff, whom Christ made the head and center of his entire Church, acquired civil power." − Pius IX, Apostolic Letter Cum Catholica Ecclesia, March 26, 1860. (The Church, selected and arranged by the Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, translated by Mother E. O'Gorman, R.S.C.J., Manhattanville College of the Sacred Heart, St. Paul Editions, Boston, © 1980, 1962 by Daughters of St. Paul, page 160)

    So now we know what is the little horn power that comes up.....

  13. #43

    Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?

    Now lets look at the text giving description of the little horn:

    "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. " Daniel 7:25

    "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." Acts 20:28-30

    Yes, long ago God predicted that, from within the church itself, misguided men would arise who would attempt to change His holy law. The little horn (The Papacy) thinks to be able to change times and laws, and in context it is speaking about the times and laws of God. More on that later.

    Now lets look at the timeline which prophecy uses. The day-year principle, year-day principle or year-for-a-day principle is a method of interpretation of Bible prophecy in which the word day in prophecy is considered to be symbolic of a year of actual time. In Biblical eschatology a 'Prophetic Year' is a time different than from an ordinary year, as it was referred to as a 'day' when it actually was a year. The three primary precedents in Scripture:

    1. Numbers 14:34. The Israelites will wander for 40 years in the wilderness, one year for every day spent by the spies in Canaan.

    2. Ezekiel 4:5-6. The prophet Ezekiel is commanded to lie on his left side for 390 days, followed by his right side for 40 days, to symbolize the equivalent number of years of punishment on Israel and Judah respectively.

    3. Daniel 9:24-27. This is known as the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks. The majority of scholars do understand the passage to refer to 70 "sevens" or "septets" of years—that is, a total of 490 years.

    We also see its use in the 360-year period of "time" composed of 360-day "years". So why is it not a year equal to 365 days as we hold today? Well in ancient times the year was held to be at 360 days. The fact that the prophets understood a year as 360 days is well attested, and can be seen in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation as seen in the use of "time, times and half a time" (i.e. 1+2+0.5=3.5), "1,260 days" and "42 months". These references represent a period of 1260 years (based on the 360 day Jewish year multiplied by 3.5). Divide 1,260 days by 42 months and you will get a 30-day month, as 12 months of 30 days equals 360-days in a year

    These time periods occur eight times in scripture:
    Daniel 7:25, "time, times and a half".
    Daniel 9:27, "half one set of seven".
    Daniel 12:7, "time, times and a half".
    Revelation 11:2, "42 months".
    Revelation 11:3, "1260 days".
    Revelation 12:6, "1260 days".
    Revelation 12:14, "time, times and a half".
    Revelation 13:5, "42 months".

    So now we can see how it relates in the following Bible verses referring to the period translated, "time".

    And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Daniel 7:25

    And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Daniel 12:7

    And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Revelation 12:14

    So its clear, the "time, times and half a time" (i.e. 1+2+0.5=3.5), "1,260 days" and "42 months" mentioned in Daniel and Revelation represent a period of 1260 years (based on the 360 day Jewish year multiplied by 3.5).

    The fact that a day can signify a year is of crucial importance in the study of Bible Prophecy. This view was recognized by the Jews as seen in Daniel 9:24-27, and as seen in Jesus' use of the day-year principle in Luke 13 verses 31-33, and in the early church. The Reformers and many others, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, John Wycliffe, John Knox, William Tyndale, Phillip Melanchthon, Sir Isaac Newton, Jan Huss, John Foxe, John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Finney, C. H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, E. B. Elliot, H. Grattan Guinness, and Bishop Thomas Newton understood this to name just a few.

  14. #44

    Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?

    Now lets look at the prophecy in Daniel 9, in which seventy literal weeks would not be enough time to accomplish all the things mentioned as having to transpire within the scope of Daniel's "seventy-weeks" vision. Student of historicism and Bible scholars for this reason view the seventy weeks of Daniel as symbolic years. Here are the verses:

    Daniel 9:24-27
    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    The 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9 in verse 24, clearly establishes this principle related to prophetic time. Its plain to see that the 70 weeks are not literally 70 weeks, but rather 70 weeks of years, or 490 years. The day-year principle is the key to understanding this prophecy.

    can see this equation is clearly established in scripture:

    Numbers 14:34
    King James Version (KJV)
    34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

    In this verse, a relationship between day and year is clear, each day will equate to a literal year. For the forty days that Israel spied in Canaan in unbelief, they would be punished by wandering forty years in the desert.


    Ezekiel 4:6
    King James Version (KJV)
    6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

    Here again, the equation is stated quite openly, a prophetic day represents a literal year. So to return to the 70 weeks of Daniel, you must first determine the number of days represented. Seventy weeks is 70 x 7 or 490 days, which will then equate to a literal 490 years in the fulfillment of the prophecy.

    So the next step is to find out the start which verse 25 gives us, "25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:".

    So the question that must be answered is, what is the starting date of the 70-week prophecy? The text states that it will be from the time that the decree is given to restore and build Jerusalem.

    There were a total of three decrees given regarding the restoration of the Jewish people. Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes all gave commands for restorations. However, only the one from Artaxerxes includes concern for the city of Jerusalem itself, and only this decree is associated with praising God for His intervention:

    Ezra 7:27-28 King James Version (KJV)
    27 Blessed be the Lord God of our fathers, which hath put such a thing as this in the king's heart, to beautify the house of the Lord which is in Jerusalem:
    28 And hath extended mercy unto me before the king, and his counsellors, and before all the king's mighty princes. And I was strengthened as the hand of the Lord my God was upon me, and I gathered together out of Israel chief men to go up with me

    So the beginning of the 70-week prophecy is from the year 457 B.C., the seventh year of King Artaxerxes I as mentioned in Ezra 7:7-26.

    The decree by Artaxerxes I of 458/7 B.C. is to provide money to rebuild Jerusalem and its temple. The reference to an anointed one being "cut off" in verse 26 is identified with crucifixion of Jesus 3½ years after his baptism, and marks the midpoint of the seventieth week, and associated with the confirmation of Jeremiah's new "covenant" (verse 27) and making atonement for "iniquity" (verse 24). So we see the seventy weeks end with year A.D. 34, which is when the preaching of the gospel was enlarged and also went to the Gentiles, which was marked by the persecution of the early church and the martyrdom of Stephen. It clearly shows how middle of the last week would be the year A.D. 31, which is when Jesus died on the cross.

    Christian historicism, which is what unveils these verses from scripture, interprets prophecy as an overview of the history of the Christian church, asserting connections between historical events and statements in the Bible, and distinguishing between prophecies considered already fulfilled and those still to come. The Jews of biblical times, had taught this view in the many prophecies to be fulfilled, which were pointing to the Messiah such as those by the prophets Isaiah and Ezekiel. The early church and the precursors to the Reformation used it, Jerome in his 'Commentary on Daniel' went into the kingdoms that Daniel predicted. The Protestant Reformers were deeply interested in historicism and the day-year principle, and used it assigning prophecies in the Bible to past, present and future events.

  15. #45
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    Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    But they have to be the same...…………….

    Focus. The four notable ones in Dan 8 are not the four in Dan 2 as the division into four parts happens after Babylon and MP. Thus the four notable ones then have to be the four beasts in Dan 7. Hence the four notable ones and the four beasts are the same then the little horns have to be the same!!! can you see this?
    I really can't focus on that. The way I look at it makes perfect sense, as it does with most interpreters of these passages. The 4 Kingdoms of Nebuchadnezzar's dream are the same 4 Kingdoms of Daniel's dream. Ch. 8 is self-explanatory. There's the Ram, or Persia. And there is the Goat, or Greece. The Kingdom of Greece breaks up into 4 kingdoms, these having nothing to do with the 4 Kingdoms mentioned in Dan 2 and Dan 7. In those chapters, the Kingdom of Greece is the 3rd Kingdom. So Greece, the 3rd Kingdom, breaks up into 4 parts. Simple.

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