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Thread: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the dead

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    Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the dead

    Rev 20
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    1. The verse ONLY speaks of the martyred.
    2. They are martyred during a specific point in time. During the mark of the beast.
    3. Judgement has been given them thus they have been resurrected.

    So where in scripture do we see such a group?

    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    The 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. They have been resurrected and seen with the Lamb before he returns. Thus they are not part of the first resurrection after he returns. The "first" resurrection is called such as it is "first" upon the second coming.


    So where are all the other believers mentioned which did not die a martyred death?


    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    They are the rest of the dead. why do we know this?

    1. Only the martyred have been mentioned.
    2. They take part in the first resurrection and are holy and blessed. (note again those in verse 4 are not part of the first resurrection).
    3. They are priests of God. (the martyred live and reign so who else can be those which are the priest of God and reign?)


    So understanding that those in verse 4 are only the martyred and are raised to life before the second coming and the first resurrection then helps us understand the rest of the dead are meant as the rest of the dead believers who correctly take part in the first resurrection.

    Many have been programmed to believe the 1000 years is literal which then contradicts so many other scriptures; that there is a 1000 literal years between resurrections, having to deny the NHNE occurs at the second coming wherein mortals then can survive, promoting two little seasons and placing revolving door instead of a gate for hell, rearranging chapter 20 text, on and on.


    John uses the phrase 1000 years as a metaphor and represents a non defined time length outside this realm between the casting of Satan in the pit and the ending with the second coming.

    Satan cast into pit------> 1000 years (firstfruit resurrection 144,000) ------> Second coming/First resurrection (rest of the dead believers)

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    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

    Nowhere does the Bible say the 144,000 are martyred. They are not the Trib martyrs that Jesus will raise to life at His Return.

    Many have believed the literal 1000 year reign of King Jesus, because that is exactly what the Bible tells us. There is no point in making that time period out to be anything else.

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    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Rev 20
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    1. The verse ONLY speaks of the martyred.
    2. They are martyred during a specific point in time. During the mark of the beast.
    3. Judgement has been given them thus they have been resurrected.
    The grammar does not allow it. This is who "lived"
    1. the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus. This is any Christian since Pentecost
    2. the souls of them that were beheaded for the word of God This includes the prophets right back to Abel
    3. the souls of them which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; This is those in a specific three-and-one-half years of the Beast's reign

    Here is your further difficulty. "... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
    • "They lived". Since they are killed by the Beast, they could only "live" by a resurrection after the Beast is gone. Neither has the Beast come, nor gone, and there has been no resurrection of his victims yet
    • "and reigned". The Gentiles still rule the earth. No Christian martyr has reigned yet. Not even our Lord Jesus has reigned yet
    • "with Christ". Where is HE if His Kingdom (i) has replaced that of the Gentiles and (ii) is everlasting?

    And you have no reason not to take the 1,000 years literally. The period of 1,000 years is mentioned SIX times in THREE different contexts in this Chapter. Thrice it is introduced as "a" thousand years immediately followed by it being "THE" thousand years.
    1. It pertains to the time Satan is bound in an abyss
    2. It pertains to the time that the rest of the dead stay in Hades
    3. It pertains to the time that those of the first (in importance) resurrection do reign WITH Christ

    So, not only is NO REASON given to take it metaphorically, but the grammar solidly defines it as a fixed thousand years.

    If this is true, the rest of your posting topples.

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    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Rev 20
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    1. The verse ONLY speaks of the martyred.
    I disagree with your first premise upon which the entire argument is being made. There are actually two groups being highlighted in the passage.


    The blue section below speaks of a group identified as "They" and the green section speaks of the martyrs. These two groups are separated by a conjunction clause, "THEN (or AND) I saw". IOW, John is seeing one group AND THEN he is seeing another group. BOTH groups "COME TO LIFE" and reign with Christ.


    Rev 20:4* And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.*


    The term "they" in 20:4a is a pronoun. Grammatically, pronouns modify nouns and they generally modify a noun that has ALREADY BEEN PREVIOUSLY IDENTIFIED in the context of the passage. It is rare that a pronoun will modify a noun that has not yet been identified prior to its usage. In your interpretation, you must argue that the pronoun "THEY that sat upon them, and judgment was given unto THEM" is modifying a noun (martyrs) given AFTER the pronoun is used (24b). This is an odd grammatical approach to language and is very unlikely.


    The problem for many in this passage is that they are reading Revelation 20 in an isolated fashion disconnected from the broader context which includes the previous chapter (ch 19). Just 11 verses prior to this verse, John records that at Christ return, He is coming and "all the armies of heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, FOLLOW HIM on white horses" (Rev 19:14). This grammatically and logically would served as the only eligible party to reign with Christ due to being mentioned PRIOR to the pronoun "THEY that sat on thrones" in chapter 20. This means that John is highlighting two groups that will reign with Christ. One is the bride of Christ and the other are the martyrs. Technically, both are apart of the same group (bride of Christ), however, John is shown the martyrs distinctively in order to highlight and book-end the story line of Revelation. In chapter 6, the martyrs were crying out "how long Lord until you avenge us?" The Lord then tells them to wait and to received a white robe until the full number of martyrs is completed. Chapter 20 highlights the martyrs and the receiving of their rewards as a summation of their service to God and their subsequent reward to reign with Him. This does not mean they are the only ones reigning.


    Zechariah and Paul were clear that Christ is coming back "with ALL the saints" not just the martyrs


    Zec 14:5* Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with Him.

    1Th 4:14* For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.*


    Paul also stated that the qualifications for reigning with Christ is to "endure with Him". It does not state that one must be killed for him as a prerequisite.


    2Ti 2:12* If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.*


    Daniel as well confirms that when the Beast with 10 horns is destroyed that the Kingdom under heaven will be given to the Son of Man and it will be given to the Saints of the Most High. Therefore, we have confirmation that all the saints will reign with Christ after the destruction of the 10 horn beast is destroyed with confirms the chronological order for Revelation 19 and 20 as well as confirms that all the saint swill reign and not just the martyrs.


    Dan 7:27* Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.'*


    Lastly, depending on the Greek rendering of Rev 5:10, if it is from John's perspective then he clearly includes himself as one who "will reign (future tense) on the earth". However John was not a martyr.

    Rev 5:10*(NKJV) And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."*

    If we agree that this passage is from the perspective of the 4 living creatures as the NASB does, it still confirms my point as it indicated that all the saints who are washed in the blood of the lamb and have become a kingdom of priests "will reign upon the earth". It is not limited to only martyrs.

    Rev 5:10 (NASB)* "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."*

    Being a "kingdom of priest" that "will reign on the earth" is not limited to martyrs because Peter confirms that the whole church is a kingdom of priests (See 2 Peter 2:5-9)

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    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Nowhere does the Bible say the 144,000 are martyred.
    First we see the 144,000 have the mark of God placed in their foreheads

    3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
    4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

    Then we see a group beheaded which did not worship the beast.

    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    So then can the beheaded include all martyrs or a select group. It is narrowed down that they have to be during a time of the Beast but more importantly why are they beheaded.

    They are being beheaded due to the fact Satan is separating the mark of God from their bodies. Thus they are the 144,000. No body else has the mark of God in their foreheads except them.

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    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post

    the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus.[/I] This is any Christian since Pentecost
    the souls of them that were beheaded for the word of God[/I] This includes the prophets right back to Abel
    the souls of them which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;[/I] This is those in a specific three-and-one-half years of the Beast's reign
    The verse specifically defines a period of time during the beast not since Pentecost.

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    "They lived". Since they are killed by the Beast, they could only "live" by a resurrection after the Beast is gone. Neither has the Beast come, nor gone, and there has been no resurrection of his victims yet
    I agree they could only live by resurrection, why do they need to wait for the beast to be gone?.

    "and reigned". The Gentiles still rule the earth. No Christian martyr has reigned yet. Not even our Lord Jesus has reigned yet
    Correct, yet. You seem to think I think the 1000 years has started which it has not.

    "with Christ". Where is HE if His Kingdom (i) has replaced that of the Gentiles and (ii) is everlasting?
    The reign is in heaven not earth. I understand your premise is the 1000 years is on earth so you see it from the view which is incorrect.


    [/LIST]
    And you have no reason not to take the 1,000 years literally. The period of 1,000 years is mentioned SIX times in THREE different contexts in this Chapter. Thrice it is introduced as "a" thousand years immediately followed by it being "THE" thousand years.
    1. It pertains to the time Satan is bound in an abyss
    2. It pertains to the time that the rest of the dead stay in Hades
    3. It pertains to the time that those of the first (in importance) resurrection do reign WITH Christ
    There's a 1000 reasons why not to take this period literally....oops I just used a metaphor.

    Satan is bound in the pit during the 1000 years, but this period happens before not after Christ returns. Who arises from the pit before Christ returns Rev 11, Rev 17, (Rev 13 also).

    Rest of the dead include believers. Where are those in Rev 20 mentioned who do not die a martyred death? Who are the priests of God?

    If this is true, the rest of your posting topples.
    Not true so still stands.

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    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The verse specifically defines a period of time during the beast not since Pentecost.

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



    I agree they could only live by resurrection, why do they need to wait for the beast to be gone?.



    Correct, yet. You seem to think I think the 1000 years has started which it has not.



    The reign is in heaven not earth. I understand your premise is the 1000 years is on earth so you see it from the view which is incorrect.




    There's a 1000 reasons why not to take this period literally....oops I just used a metaphor.

    Satan is bound in the pit during the 1000 years, but this period happens before not after Christ returns. Who arises from the pit before Christ returns Rev 11, Rev 17, (Rev 13 also).

    Rest of the dead include believers. Where are those in Rev 20 mentioned who do not die a martyred death? Who are the priests of God?



    Not true so still stands.
    OK. No problem. Thanks for the exchange.

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    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    I disagree with your first premise upon which the entire argument is being made. There are actually two groups being highlighted in the passage.

    The blue section below speaks of a group identified as "They" and the green section speaks of the martyrs. These two groups are separated by a conjunction clause, "THEN (or AND) I saw". IOW, John is seeing one group AND THEN he is seeing another group. BOTH groups "COME TO LIFE" and reign with Christ.

    Rev 20:4* And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.*
    As I thought you are using the ESV which uses "then" instead of "and". Regardless "then" does not necessarily mean "after" in which you are implying and denoting two groups. The second part of the verse merely identifies those of the first part with "then" denoting a point in time describing the same subject not connecting two separate succeeding events. Being separated by the conjunction supports and links the two parts of the verse together. If meaning two separate groups in the verse and comma would have preceded the word "then". Hence the reason all other translations use "and" instead of "then".

    In chapter 6, the martyrs were crying out "how long Lord until you avenge us?" The Lord then tells them to wait and to received a white robe until the full number of martyrs is completed. Chapter 20 highlights the martyrs and the receiving of their rewards as a summation of their service to God and their subsequent reward to reign with Him. This does not mean they are the only ones reigning.
    Those in rev 6 crying out are those killed during the 4th seal. The fellow servents would be the 144,000 as seen still living in the next chapter. So I would consider both being the martyred in Rev 20:4. Hence still rev 20:4 speaks of only the martyred not all saved whom have died.

    So this group is seen living and reigning but there is another group reigning as priests but not living yet. Who is this other group? Since they are not part of those in verse 4 they must be include elsewhere.


    Zec 14:5* Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with Him.

    1Th 4:14* For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.*
    You are confusing the two. There are those which are alive again resurrected who come back as armies at the second coming and then those which will not be resurrected until the second coming and are the priest which I mentioned and come back as the bride Rev 20. Rev 19 shows that not all believers come back as armies as some are still in heaven.

    So there are two groups reigning

    and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. = those in verse 4 (martyred)

    but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. = ? (rest of the dead whom are believers)

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    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    As I thought you are using the ESV which uses "then" instead of "and". Regardless "then" does not necessarily mean "after" in which you are implying and denoting two groups. The second part of the verse merely identifies those of the first part with "then" denoting a point in time describing the same subject not connecting two separate succeeding events. Being separated by the conjunction supports and links the two parts of the verse together. If meaning two separate groups in the verse and comma would have preceded the word "then". Hence the reason all other translations use "and" instead of "then".


    Maybe it's just me, but it seems that Dan 7:22 helps us with this.

    Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    The text says....and judgment was given to the saints of the most High

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    The text says....and judgment was given unto them

    Let's put these side by side, so to speak.


    and judgment was given to the saints of the most High
    and judgment was given unto them

    It seems to me then, 'them' in Rev 20:4 is meaning the saints of the most High.

    On a different note, Dan 7:21-22 gives us the timing of Rev 20:4.

    Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
    22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    Verse 21 is meaning the 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13. Verse 22 is obviously after that time, and what also initially puts an end to that time when the Ancient of days came, IOW it's meaning the 2nd coming. We also have to keep in mind that Dan 7:21-22 is the interpretation of earlier verses in Dan 7. The scene in verse 22 would be during Daniel 7:9-12. And notice in those verses, thrones. There are also thrones in Rev 20:4.

    If you haven't figured it out yet, Dan 7:9-12 plus Dan 7:21-22, prove that Rev 20:4 is after the 2nd coming, and not prior to it instead.

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    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post

    If you haven't figured it out yet, Dan 7:9-12 plus Dan 7:21-22, prove that Rev 20:4 is after the 2nd coming, and not prior to it instead
    I agree when speaking of the "saints" ie the born again of the church as they are resurrected upon Christ's return.

    HOWEVER there is another group your are missing it is those which keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus. This represents the remnant of Israel. I understand there has been a modern teaching that one are in the same but that is not correct, the remnant of Israel is separate, I hope you agree.

    So Dan 7 when speaking of the saints is speaking of the church as a whole. Thus they cannot represent Rev 20:4 as this does not represent all saints but specifically those which beheaded during specific time period. Thus no Dan 7 does not prove rev 20:4 is after but quite the opposite.

    The 144,000 are spoken of in Rev 20:4 and we see them resurrected and with the Lamb before the second coming. They have been beheaded by the beast for having the mark of God in their foreheads but that does not prevent them being of God, with God.

    The firstfruit resurrection of the 144,000 before the second coming.

    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


    Again, the rest of the dead are to be thought of as the rest of dead believers. I am sure John thought no issue or debate as he qualifies them as being part of the first Resurrection once Christ blessed and holy.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    No matter how you want to spin it, the verse clearly says the rest of the dead take part in the first resurrection. Again with verse 4 speaking only of a select group of believers verse 5 speaks of the rest.

    But you still say that is not possible as the first resurrection is not after a 1000 years. If the 1000 years were literal then that would be correct. But the 1000 years is not a literal 1000 years and ends at the second coming wherebt the rest of the dead believers are resurrected per the verse.

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    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    "They lived". Since they are killed by the Beast, they could only "live" by a resurrection after the Beast is gone. Neither has the Beast come, nor gone, and there has been no resurrection of his victims yet
    Believers possess etetnal life before being martyred (Jn.6:47) and so our lives never end (Lk.10:19).

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    "and reigned". The Gentiles still rule the earth. No Christian martyr has reigned yet. Not even our Lord Jesus has reigned yet
    This is the type of thinking humanists have when arguing that God doesn't exist. They're ignorant of God's patience, the kind of long suffering Jesus showed toward people who didn't deserve it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    "with Christ". Where is HE if His Kingdom (i) has replaced that of the Gentiles and (ii) is everlasting?
    What needs replacing is a sinners misconception that Christ, the Word of God, our Creator, has always reigned and always will. Where is Jesus's Kingdom? We're living in it,

    The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity Mt.13:41

    Of David. A psalm. The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it Psa.24:1

    the wicked will be cut off from the earth,
    And the unfaithful will be uprooted from it. Pro.2:22

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    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

    [EDIT]
    What needs replacing is a sinners misconception that Christ, the Word of God, our Creator, has not always reigned and always will. Where is Jesus's Kingdom?

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    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Believers possess etetnal life before being martyred (Jn.6:47) and so our lives never end (Lk.10:19).
    Just wait. Your life will end if our Lord Jesus does not return in your lifetime. Our Lord Jesus, Who possessed eternal life, died. What think ye of that. But lest I be accused of ignoring your scriptures, John 6:47, the eternal life comes from our rebirth, and our rebirth is by the holy Spirit ONLY in our human spirit - not our body (Jn.3:6). And Luke 10:19 does not say we cannot die. It promises protection while serving the Lord.

    This is the type of thinking humanists have when arguing that God doesn't exist. They're ignorant of God's patience, the kind of long suffering Jesus showed toward people who didn't deserve it.
    I fail to see what this has to do with dying after being beheaded.

    What needs replacing is a sinners misconception that Christ, the Word of God, our Creator, has always reigned and always will. Where is Jesus's Kingdom? We're living in it,
    Then our Lord made a mistake. He said to the Father "thy Kingdom COME". Why did He say that if he had always reigned. A Kingdom is a sphere where a certain king rules. That is, his will is carried out. Presently, on earth, the Gentiles rule and Christ's will is NOT done. Christ's Kingdom has still to be established on earth.

    The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity Mt.13:41
    Yes - and when? "... so shall it be in the END of this AGE." (verse 40).


    Of David. A psalm. The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it Psa.24:1

    the wicked will be cut off from the earth,
    And the unfaithful will be uprooted from it. Pro.2:22
    A son is born to a king. He is heir. His father dies but his people refuse him as king, and rebel. He must go into exile. Is he a rightful king? YES! Is that land and that people his? YES! Does he exercise his will on this land and this people? NO! He is a king without a Kingdom UNTIL he takes it back with military might. So also Jesus Christ. Is He Maker of all things? YES! Then He is also Owner of all things. But do the subjects living on earth bow to His will? NO! So one day He will topple the present government and rule with a rod of iron. Then every knee will bow - whether they agree or not. Until then, our Lord is a legitimate King waiting to receive the rulership over earth. "Thy will be doe on earth as it is in heaven", prays Jesus. If God's will was done on earth, why would Jesus pray for it to come?

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    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post

    Again, the rest of the dead are to be thought of as the rest of dead believers. I am sure John thought no issue or debate as he qualifies them as being part of the first Resurrection once Christ blessed and holy.
    Verse 5, the rest of the dead, are not meaning the rest of the believers. It's meaning the ones who get cast into the LOF at the GWTJ. Only those who have part in the first resurrection are said to be blessed and holy. The text never says nor implies anywhere, that any of the rest of the dead are also blessed and holy. BTW, what would blessed and holy be a definition of if not a saint? All saved people are saints.

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    Re: Rev 20:4/5 firstfruit resurrection of martyred/ first resurrection rest of the de

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    As I thought you are using the ESV which uses "then" instead of "and".
    Nope, not using the ESV. It was the NKJV

    Also, the greek word for "and" or "then" is "Kai" and either word is a proper translation of the word. I don't have a preference because either word states the same thing...

    Regardless "then" does not necessarily mean "after" in which you are implying and denoting two groups. The second part of the verse merely identifies those of the first part with "then" denoting a point in time describing the same subject not connecting two separate succeeding events. Being separated by the conjunction supports and links the two parts of the verse together. If meaning two separate groups in the verse and comma would have preceded the word "then". Hence the reason all other translations use "and" instead of "then".

    Your making up your own grammar rules here. No one would place a comma in this spot. The only grammatical correct way to state this would have been to use a period to separate the sentence which is exactly what they did.

    You stated that the conjunction proves they are the same entity. That is untrue.. For example, If I said the following

    "At the farm there were many who sat on tractors and worked on them. And I also saw many pigs playing in the mud"

    Does the conjunction "and" mean that those workers and the pigs are the same entities? Of course not... The "many on tractors" would be a group of farmers previously identified and the pigs would be a second group.

    You still did not address my other points. You have a pronoun (they) being introduced before the noun (martyrs) which is extremely rare grammatically. Please find other examples where John did this in revelation. The proper way to view this is that "they" modifies a noun already mentioned and that the martyrs are a second highlighted group.

    You also did not address my other proof text about all the saints reigning with Christ at His coming.

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