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Thread: called to Postrib?

  1. #211
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    Re: called to Postrib?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    but essentially the day they expect a rapture to happen is correct, it will actually happen that day.
    You lost me there since midtrib isn't post trib. What exactly are you meaning?

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    Re: called to Postrib?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    You lost me there since midtrib isn't post trib. What exactly are you meaning?
    Just what I said, The rapture happens on the same day in both mid and post trib. The only difference is that there is no more trib left and Christ's second coming happens....but that still means the day of the rapture happens the same day in both doctrines as long as the GT starts the same day according to both.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: called to Postrib?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    We covered this a few months ago. The 42 months is in the 2nd woe trump which is 6th trump. Rev 11 says after the 6th is over the 7th sounds quickly proving the two prophets die and resurrect during the end of the 2nd woe/42 months period.


    I remember us discussing that and that at the time I agreed you were likely correct. But since one is free to change their mind about something, I'm no longer certain I was correct to agree with you about that. Why can't the 2nd woe simply cover 7 years, and when the 2W die, it's at the end of the 7 years? That still puts the 7th trumpet where it belongs. The only thing the text tells us is that it is after they finish their testimony, they are then eventually killed by the beast. That can mean days after, weeks after, or even years after, it would still be after they finished their testimony no matter how you look at it. If there wasn't ch 13 to consider, there would be no reason to even think there could be another 3.5 years. Plus, if the entire 70th week is at the end, why would Revelation only be focusing on half of it rather than all of it?

  4. #214
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    Re: called to Postrib?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Just what I said, The rapture happens on the same day in both mid and post trib. The only difference is that there is no more trib left and Christ's second coming happens....but that still means the day of the rapture happens the same day in both doctrines as long as the GT starts the same day according to both.
    I'm still not following you. Midtrib believes the rapture happens in the middle of the 70th week. Postrib believes the rapture happens at the end of the 70th week. Meaning in regards to those who agree the 70th week is at the end of the age. Not all agree it is, but as to the ones who do, midtrib would have the rapture occurring 3.5 years earlier than post trib, thus why I'm not on the same page you, you lost me here.

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    Re: called to Postrib?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    The only thing the text tells us is that it is after they finish their testimony, they are then eventually killed by the beast.
    No, not eventually but as soon as the testimony is done. That is like God no longer protecting Job.

    Rev 11:7* And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.*
    Rev 11:8* And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.*
    Rev 11:9* And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.*
    Rev 11:10* And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.*
    Rev 11:11* And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.*
    Rev 11:12* And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.*
    Rev 11:13* And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.*
    Rev 11:14* The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.*

    They are killed and resurrect during the 42 month reign because that beast kills them. It is also the 2nd woe. They can't be killed years later because the beast only has 3.5 years total and they rise to life the last day the beast has. I don't see the 7th trump sounds, Jesus returning and then just waiting years before defeating the two beasts and putting in the LOF.

    That can mean days after, weeks after, or even years after, it would still be after they finished their testimony no matter how you look at it. If there wasn't ch 13 to consider, there would be no reason to even think there could be another 3.5 years. Plus, if the entire 70th week is at the end, why would Revelation only be focusing on half of it rather than all of it?
    The 7 years GT was changed to a 3.5 year GT so that would make the focus on a shorter time length, the last half of a week. The first half of that week once was also the GT but now it isn't.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: called to Postrib?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I'm still not following you. Midtrib believes the rapture happens in the middle of the 70th week. Postrib believes the rapture happens at the end of the 70th week. Meaning in regards to those who agree the 70th week is at the end of the age. Not all agree it is, but as to the ones who do, midtrib would have the rapture occurring 3.5 years earlier than post trib, thus why I'm not on the same page you, you lost me here.
    Let me put it this way, the day that the GT starts, will mid trib and post trib both agree that it started at that time? If so, the rapture is 3.5 years later and both doctrines would be saying it would happen at that time. The only dif is post trib knows it is only going to last 3.5 years/42 months but mid trib will think there is another 3.5 years/42 months after the rapture.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: called to Postrib?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Very few are going to be upset at that, not that I think animal sacrifice is said to start again but if it did the world for the most part wouldn't care. The world barely cares about innocent people being slaughtered let alone animals.
    I disagree, we will have to wait and see how it unfolds because I cannot prove this to you. But prophetically if the temple rebuild is the abomination, then within 30 days the antichrist will reign.
    The abomination occurs 1290 days before the end, the antichrist 1260 days before the end. We will have 30 days warning.

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    Re: called to Postrib?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The only dif is post trib knows it is only going to last 3.5 years/42 months but mid trib will think there is another 3.5 years/42 months after the rapture.
    Which then makes my point I have been making all along, midtrib is basically pretrib in disguise. Because if there is another 3.5 years after the rapture, which is clearly referring to the GT, that means midtrib has the rapture occurring pretrib and not midtrib nor post trib. Midtrib would be in the middle of the 3.5 years. Not in the middle of the 7 years, because even though there is this 7 years at the end of time, only the last 3.5 years of it is meaning the GT. The first half does not even involve the GT. So midtrib is based on the misunderstanding that the GT is 7 years in length. So midtrib is not even a logical position if it has the rapture occurring before the GT even begins, then calling that midtrib.

  9. #219
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    Re: called to Postrib?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Which then makes my point I have been making all along, midtrib is basically pretrib in disguise.
    I can't see why you think that.

    GT starts, no rapture happened so pre-trib is wrong.
    GT starts and 3.5 years later Christ returns and the rapture happens. No further trib is possible so mid trib is wrong.
    GT starts and 3.5 years later Christ returns and the rapture happens. No further trib happens because it's over, post trib is correct.

    The only matching details is post and mid trib have the rapture at the same time, as long as both doctrines agree when the GT begins. ie: the rapture occurs 3.5 years/42 months after the GT begins.


    So midtrib is not even a logical position if it has the rapture occurring before the GT even begins, then calling that midtrib.
    They don't believe a rapture can happen before the GT begins.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Which then makes my point I have been making all along, midtrib is basically pretrib in disguise.
    I can't see why you think that.

    GT starts, no rapture happened so pre-trib is wrong.
    GT starts and 3.5 years later Christ returns and the rapture happens. No further trib is possible so mid trib is wrong.
    GT starts and 3.5 years later Christ returns and the rapture happens. No further trib happens because it's over, post trib is correct.

    The only matching details is post and mid trib have the rapture at the same time, as long as both doctrines agree when the GT begins. ie: the rapture occurs 3.5 years/42 months after the GT begins.


    So midtrib is not even a logical position if it has the rapture occurring before the GT even begins, then calling that midtrib.
    They don't believe a rapture can happen before the GT begins.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  10. #220
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    Re: called to Postrib?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Here's just one brief article on that (I'll try to find the more thorough one):

    [quoting]

    "Translation History
    "The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[7] This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”[8] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”?

    "Most scholars say that no one knows the reason for the translation shift. However, a plausible theory has been put forth by Martin Butalla in his Master of Theology thesis produced at Dallas Theology Seminary in 1998.[9] It appears that the Catholic translation into English from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate known as the Rheims Bible (1576) was the first to break the translation trend. “Apostasia was revised from ‘the departure’ to ‘the Protestant Revolt,’” explains Butalla. “Revolution is the terminology still in use today when Catholicism teaches the history of the Protestant Reformation. Under this guise, apostasia would refer to a departure of Protestants from the Catholic Church.”[10] The Catholic translators appear eager to engage in polemics against the Reformation by even allowing it to impact Bible translation. By 1611, when then original version of the King James Bible came out, the translators changed the English translation tradition from “departure” to “falling away,” which implied “apostasy.” Such a change was a theological response to the Catholic notion that the Reformation was a revolt against the true church; instead, Protestants saw Catholic beliefs as “the falling away” or “the great apostasy. This would mean that the shift in translation was not based upon research of the meaning of the original language but as a theological polemic against the false teachings of Romanism.

    "It is well established that E. Schuyler English is thought to be the first pretribulationist to propose that “the departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was a physical departure and thus a reference to the pre-trib rapture. However, history records that at least a couple of men thought of this idea before English’s series of article in 1950.[11] J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.[12] He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star.[13] [...]"


    --Dr Thomas Ice, "The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3", https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/al...nians-2-3/read

    [end quoting]



    Will look again for those other articles, though I've posted them repeatedly in the past... O.O
    Hey friend, thanks for sharing with us.
    I especially offer thanks for the last link in the quote above, 2nd Thessalonians will be my next study now.


    God bless
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
    Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

  11. #221
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    Re: called to Postrib?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I can't see why you think that.

    GT starts, no rapture happened so pre-trib is wrong.
    GT starts and 3.5 years later Christ returns and the rapture happens. No further trib is possible so mid trib is wrong.
    GT starts and 3.5 years later Christ returns and the rapture happens. No further trib happens because it's over, post trib is correct.

    The only matching details is post and mid trib have the rapture at the same time, as long as both doctrines agree when the GT begins. ie: the rapture occurs 3.5 years/42 months after the GT begins.



    They don't believe a rapture can happen before the GT begins.


    The GT is only 3.5 years, not 7 years. Midtrib would be meaning in the middle of the 3.5 years, not in the middle of the 7 years. And since Midtrib has the rapture occurring in the middle of the 7 years instead, let's look at it like such. There is the 70th week, it is 7 years in length. It is divided into 2 sections, each consisting of 3.5 years. The first 3.5 years there is no GT. The 2nd 3.5 years is the GT. The following is Midtrib.

    The first 3.5 years there is no GT, even though they wrongly think there is....followed by Midtrib, the rapture...followed by...The 2nd 3.5 years is the GT.

    Yet Midtrib should really be the following instead.


    The first 3.5 years there is no GT....followed by the first half of the GT(1/2 of 3.5 years)....followed by Midtrib, the rapture...followed by the 2nd half of the GT(the remaining 1/2 of 3.5 years)

    As can be seen in the former, just like Pretrib, Midtrib actually has the rapture occurring before the GT, based on them wrongly thinking the GT is 7 years when it is really only 3.5 years. So how can Midtrib not be Pretrib in disguise? IOW, midtrib is not even a logical position to begin with.

  12. #222
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    Re: called to Postrib?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    The GT is only 3.5 years, not 7 years. Midtrib would be meaning in the middle of the 3.5 years, not in the middle of the 7 years. And since Midtrib has the rapture occurring in the middle of the 7 years instead, let's look at it like such. There is the 70th week, it is 7 years in length. It is divided into 2 sections, each consisting of 3.5 years. The first 3.5 years there is no GT. The 2nd 3.5 years is the GT. The following is Midtrib.
    Well, I can't seem to get you to see that the time of the rapture actually happens on the same day in post and mid trib rapture views as long as the start of the GT is on the same day. Mid simply is wrong that there is more of the GT left after the rapture but they will understand when the rapture happens and the beast is defeated so no more trib.

    I'll try one more way.

    Let's pretend we know the start of the GT, and thus know 3.5 years later the day of the rapture.

    So, let's make the start of the GT June 6th 2020. Would you please calculate 3.5 years later, using June 6th as the 1st day of 3.5 years, and 365 days in a year and tell me what day the rapture would happen assuming in this pretend scenario that on the 365th day the Lord returns and the rapture happens making this a post trib scenario. Remember, this is just pretend not setting real dates. I am only trying to make a point.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  13. #223
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    Re: called to Postrib?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Mid simply is wrong that there is more of the GT left after the rapture but they will understand when the rapture happens and the beast is defeated so no more trib.

    How do you figure that? Their rapture happens before the 42 months even begin. Maybe you are thinking prewrath or something? Prewrath would be post trib, but midtrib wouldn't. Midtrib would basically be pretrib. I'm not seeing how you're not grasping that. There are 4 positions as to the timing of the rapture. They are pretrib, midtrib, prewrath, post trib. The former 2 are both pretrib, the latter 2 are both post trib.

    As to calculating the GT from June 6th 2020, let's just keep it simple, I don't see where it needs to be precise in order for you to try and make your point. Let's say the GT starts at the beginning of 2000 AD. 3.5 years later the rapture happens, which should be around the 1st of June 20003 AD.

    Per midtrib, the rapture would occur prior to 2000 AD. The same would be true for pretrib. As to prewrath and post trib though, there would be a small difference since prewrath would have the rapture taking place earlier than post trib, even though prewrath is still post trib.


    Once again. Midtrib assumes the GT is 7 years in length rather than 3.5 years in length. That means their rapture happens before the actual GT even begins, and not that the GT has already been in progress for 3.5 years like they wrongly assume.

    I fail to see how I can be the one incorrect here. Midtrib is pretrib. There's no way it couldn't be if the GT is only 3.5 years rather than 7 years, thus making their rapture take place before the GT even begins, making their rapture pretrib. BTW, I used to be midtrib. I was also pretrib as well. But at the time I had no idea midtrib is basically pretrib. At the time I also wrongly thought the GT was 7 years rather than 3.5 years.

    Wanted to add one more thing since I used to be midtrib. It's been quite some time since I was midtrib though. But if I recall correctly, midtrib was also based on the idea that the 7th trumpet is not the 2nd coming, but that it is the rapture of the church. Which meant the 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13 was after the 7th trumpet, and not prior to it instead.

  14. #224

    Re: called to Postrib?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
    Hey friend, thanks for sharing with us.
    I especially offer thanks for the last link in the quote above, 2nd Thessalonians will be my next study now.


    God bless
    My pleasure.

    Glad to know you've found the quote [T. Ice] to be of interest to you. Thank you for posting!

    I hope that other things I've put in this thread (and other threads of late) you will find to be helpful, as well, in your study on this subject.

    God bless you too. Thanks again!

  15. #225
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    Re: called to Postrib?

    To imply that "departure" refers to a geographical departure from the earth to the clouds of heaven is a pure and blatant insertion into the text a concept that would be strange and not belong there. The whole sense of the Antichrist, which comes solely from Dan 7, is one of deparature from the norms of the Jewish religion, which in our day would be Christianity.

    Juxtaposed with prophecy of the future Antichrist Daniel provides insight into the coming of Antiochus 4, which in his time was still future. And Antiochus clearly opposed Jewish religion under the Law of Moses. When seen in the context of a future Antichrist, in the age of the Church, it is clear that the "departure" would refer to a departure from the norms of the Church--not from the norms of the Jewish Law.

    To make this unmistakable Paul describes the Antichrist as "lawless." Thus, this "departure" (apostasia) is a departure from Christian *lawfulness.* He is positioning himself in the place of *our God!*

    2 Thes 2.4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

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