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Thread: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

  1. #31

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    ^ I see the text (in 2Th2:7b) as saying,

    "...only [there is] the [one] restraining [active] at present, until out of the midst he be come [come to be; MIDDLE voice]…"


    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_t...onians/2-7.htm


    [the way "be taken out of the way" is worded, as you have it, sounds a bit like it's "passive" INSTEAD... so I do not see it saying that]


    "until out of the midst he be come [come to be; middle voice]"

    I agree with those saying it is the Holy Spirit indwelling 'the Church which is His body' [together] as being the identity of "the one restraining at present, UNTIL"

    ['out of the midst' being distinct from the phrase 'in the midst' (kinda like as in the passages in Rev1:13 and 2:1 "IN THE MIDST of the seven golden candlesticks" [i.e. "[in the midst of] the churchES," which, you may note, is not identical to saying "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (which itself is made up ONLY of "believers/saints," whereas "the churchES" is made up of both "believers/saints" AND those who are not actually "saved")--]

    ^ I see the text (in 2Th2:7b) as saying,

    "...only [there is] the [one] restraining [active] at present, until out of the midst he be come [come to be; MIDDLE voice]…"


    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm


    [the way "be taken out of the way" is worded, as you have it, sounds a bit like it's "passive" INSTEAD... so I do not see it saying that]


    "until out of the midst he be come [come to be; middle voice]"

    I agree with those saying it is the Holy Spirit indwelling 'the Church which is His body' [together] as being the identity of "the one restraining at present, UNTIL"

    ['out of the midst' being distinct from the phrase 'in the midst' (kinda like as in the passages in Rev1:13 and 2:1 "IN THE MIDST of the seven golden candlesticks" [i.e. "[in the midst of] the churchES," which, you may note, is not identical to saying "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (which itself is made up ONLY of "believers/saints," whereas "the churchES" is made up of both "believers/saints" AND those who are not actually "saved")--]

    sorry for the dbl post there ^

    sorry for the dbl post there ^

  2. #32
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    ^ I see the text (in 2Th2:7b) as saying,

    "...only [there is] the [one] restraining [active] at present, until out of the midst he be come [come to be; MIDDLE voice]…"


    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_t...onians/2-7.htm


    [the way "be taken out of the way" is worded, as you have it, sounds a bit like it's "passive" INSTEAD... so I do not see it saying that]


    "until out of the midst he be come [come to be; middle voice]"

    I agree with those saying it is the Holy Spirit indwelling 'the Church which is His body' [together] as being the identity of "the one restraining at present, UNTIL"

    ['out of the midst' being distinct from the phrase 'in the midst' (kinda like as in the passages in Rev1:13 and 2:1 "IN THE MIDST of the seven golden candlesticks" [i.e. "[in the midst of] the churchES," which, you may note, is not identical to saying "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (which itself is made up ONLY of "believers/saints," whereas "the churchES" is made up of both "believers/saints" AND those who are not actually "saved")--]

    ^ I see the text (in 2Th2:7b) as saying,

    "...only [there is] the [one] restraining [active] at present, until out of the midst he be come [come to be; MIDDLE voice]…"


    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_t...onians/2-7.htm


    [the way "be taken out of the way" is worded, as you have it, sounds a bit like it's "passive" INSTEAD... so I do not see it saying that]


    "until out of the midst he be come [come to be; middle voice]"

    I agree with those saying it is the Holy Spirit indwelling 'the Church which is His body' [together] as being the identity of "the one restraining at present, UNTIL"

    ['out of the midst' being distinct from the phrase 'in the midst' (kinda like as in the passages in Rev1:13 and 2:1 "IN THE MIDST of the seven golden candlesticks" [i.e. "[in the midst of] the churchES," which, you may note, is not identical to saying "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (which itself is made up ONLY of "believers/saints," whereas "the churchES" is made up of both "believers/saints" AND those who are not actually "saved")--]

    sorry for the dbl post there ^

    sorry for the dbl post there ^
    There's nothing wrong with your interpretation that he comes "out of the midst".

    Whichever way we see the wording, can anyone else confirm the identity of the entity that comes out of the midst exactly 3.5 years before the second coming?

    Rev 12 shows that Satan comes out from the heavenlies at that moment, and he does fit the restrainer, is there any other known entity that changes location 42 months before the second coming?

    I don't know of any, so I have no reason to change my view.

    As for the Holy Spirit, that's a pretrib assumption, but has no actual biblical support that exactly mid-trib the Holy Spirit will come out of the midst.

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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    It certainly is an event :
    For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

    The restrainer is keeping the secret of lawlessness . Then there is a definite moment when he is "taken out of the way".

    There is a finite period of 3.5 years at the end of the age. We are currently in the indefinite period, and the finite period (the end) will not come until the gospel is preached to all nations.

    Satan's deception and secrecy continues on, until the church will spread the gospel to the whole world. At that moment Satan is overcome and will be removed and exposed via the antichrist.
    Well, there are several points that I might question.
    1) Is the removal of restraint really an "event?" To say that a brahma bull is restrained by his pen until the door is released does not indicate the release of the door is an "event." On the other hand, to say the waters of a lake is restrained by a dam and the dam breaks does indicate the removal of restrain is an "event!" I really can't see that the removal of the restraint, or the removal of the Restrainer, is an "event" unless there is more there to confirm what this is.

    2) I'm not seeing that the Restrainer is doing the job of keeping "secret" the mystery of lawlessness. I think, rather, that Paul is inferring that this form of lawlessness is not yet fully revealed until the Antichrist actually appears. It's just that the spirit of Antichrist presently exists in a less-revealed way. The Restrainer is indeed inhibiting the actual appearance of Antichrist. But the removal of this restraint may be simply the evolution of what is not yet revealed to that which is actually revealed.

    I might theorize as follows. The Roman Empire and its imperial tradition has been predestined to be overcome and replaced by the Antichristian Empire. This Roman imperial tradition is evil in and of itself, and is what constitutes the "mystery of lawlessness." But as an agency of law and order it has restrained the actual appearance of Antichrist and his unbridled demonstration of opposition to God's People.

    We read, for example, that Antichrist destroys Rome, the "Harlot." This may be the "event" in which the restraint of Antichrist's appearance is removed. It may be the unveiling of who he is and the release of his ambition to result in acts of defiance against God.

    Rev 17.16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

    3) I don't see where the preaching of the Gospel to all nations is presented, biblically, as a necessary prelude to the last 3.5 years of the age. On the contrary, I believe Jesus said that the Gospel will be preached all the way to the end of the age. In Revelation we see an angel still preaching the Gospel to all the earth in the endtimes.

    4) I don't see any "removal of Satan" until the 2nd Coming, to prepare for the establishment of Christ's Millennial Kingdom. I don't see Satan being put "out of the way" to anticipate the coming of Antichrist, since it is Satan himself who inhabits Antichrist and energizes him and motivates him.

  4. #34

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    As for the Holy Spirit, that's a pretrib assumption, but has no actual biblical support that exactly mid-trib the Holy Spirit will come out of the midst.
    If you've followed my reasoning (from the other thread, thus far), you would see that I do not believe it [the "be revealed"] is at the point of the "3.5-yrs-remaining" time slot [i.e. mid-trib] that this verse is referring to, but rather AT the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period (the "IN THE NIGHT/IN HIS TIME" 7-yr trib, period of time--at the START of THAT; aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 ; like what Jesus spoke of in Matt24:4/Mk13:5<--the FIRST ONE of the SET of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" which are parallel with the SEALS of Rev6 [so being SEAL #1... "he that sat on him had a BOW" (which often means "DECEPTION" [which "fits" ALL of the parallels I've listed that occur at the START of the 7-yrs], but there's also the last 3 mentions of the word "bow" in the OT referring to "the battle bow" and the words here saying also "and he went forth conquering and to conquer" which Grk word IS later used of the one in [later, chronologically] Rev11:7 and 13:7 "and he overcame [them, 13:7; 'and shall overcome them, and kill them' 11:7]… much more I could say...)


    So, whereas I see "the 4 living creatures" to be IN SOME WAY representatives of "the 4-directional plotment of Israel" [in OT times, for their description matches these], I believe "the 24 elders" (sitting on "24 thrones" and wearing "stephanos/crowns" [like Paul was promised, but "not to him only" 2Tim4:8 "IN THAT DAY" ('the Day of Christ' when WE are UP THERE "WITH [G4862] HIM")]) are representative of "the Church which is His body" FOLLOWING a "searching judgment" (as indicated by the words in Rev5:4 "was found," LIKE is used of Paul's courtroom trials [etc] in the latter parts of Acts); and indicated also by what THEY (the 24 elders) say in Rev5:9 [distinct from v.10] which is "and hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (the next verse being the others saying OF THEM/OF the 24 elders, "and hast made THEM unto our God kings and priests: and THEY shall reign on the earth", in a kind of "antiphonal singing" where even MORE voices are added further on down in the passage)]


    I like what William Kelly says about 1 Chronicles 25 and the "24 courses" (especially in view of what I'd put in the other thread about what Hebrews 9:8-9a says "which is a parable for the present time" and speaks there of "the tabernacle in the wilderness" [a parable of the present time, when WE "the Church which is His body" are here (in the wilderness), "the first tabernacle yet having A STANDING/stasis"]), note the following:

    [quoting Wm Kelly]

    ""In 1 Chronicles 25 we have the service of song. "Moreover, David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries [/earthen vessels], and with cymbals." It is called "prophesying" because it so directly brought in God, which is the emphatic meaning of prophesying. "And the number of the workmen according to their service was" - so and so. There were twenty-four courses of the singers. Now, this was another remarkable change. In the tabernacle, song was not the characteristic feature, but sacrifice; but in the temple in the day of glory, the song of triumph is the new and suitable feature."

    --William Kelly, 1 Chronicles 25 [see especially verse 7]

    [note: v.1 "with harps [see Rev5], with psalteries ['earthen vessels'], and with cymbals"...hmmm...]


    [end quoting; bold/underline emphasis mine]


    It would take a LOT to convince me that "the 24 elders" are not representing "the Church which is His body" FOLLOWING a "searching judgment" (with SEAL #1 opening being at the START of the "7-yr trib," which will unfold upon the earth, whereas these are already in Heaven at this point in the chronology).

    That, plus the thing I've posted before, about how the phrase "in the twinkling of an eye" refers to "the precise moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is 8-degrees below the horizon AT SUNDOWN" (i.e. the "IN THE NIGHT" ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" TIME PERIOD (ALL of the "LIGHT BULBS" will have been RELOCATED / "a standing away [from a previous standing]"/ "apo stasis"), and will be involving "judgments" and "the man of sin's ARRIVAL [2Th2:9a]" and other passages using this "in the night" phrase such as Dan7:7 and Gen46:2 and one in Jeremiah that relates, as I recall [but forget the reference, at present])… and so much more...

  5. #35
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Then there is a definite moment when he is "taken out of the way".

    A cpl of questions. Are you applying "taken out of the way" to that of the restrainer? As to "taken out of the way", in what sense are you understanding that? According to the Greek that statement doesn't appear to mean in the same sense we typically take it today to mean, that someone is being removed out of the way. According to the Greek, 'taken' means the following. .):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass)...among other things as well.

    And 'way' according to the Greek basically means....midst...among other things as well.

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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    A cpl of questions. Are you applying "taken out of the way" to that of the restrainer? As to "taken out of the way", in what sense are you understanding that? According to the Greek that statement doesn't appear to mean in the same sense we typically take it today to mean, that someone is being removed out of the way. According to the Greek, 'taken' means the following. .):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass)...among other things as well.

    And 'way' according to the Greek basically means....midst...among other things as well.
    I agree on the flexibility of the wording, but the one who is holding the secret back, moves location exactly 42 months before the second coming. So yes, I am applying taken out the way, to the restrainer. (the withholder of the secret needs to be removed, then the man of lawlessness is revealed?)

    (taken out the way, come out the midst, it's a changed location)

    For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way

    We know the 42 month timing, because the deceiving signs when he comes to power match the deceiving signs when the beast of Rev 13 comes to power. 42 months before the end.

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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    If you've followed my reasoning (from the other thread, thus far), you would see that I do not believe it [the "be revealed"] is at the point of the "3.5-yrs-remaining" time slot [i.e. mid-trib] that this verse is referring to, but rather AT the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period (the "IN THE NIGHT/IN HIS TIME" 7-yr trib, period of time--at the START of THAT; aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 ; like what Jesus spoke of in Matt24:4/Mk13:5<--the FIRST ONE of the SET of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" which are parallel with the SEALS of Rev6 [so being SEAL #1... "he that sat on him had a BOW" (which often means "DECEPTION" [which "fits" ALL of the parallels I've listed that occur at the START of the 7-yrs], but there's also the last 3 mentions of the word "bow" in the OT referring to "the battle bow" and the words here saying also "and he went forth conquering and to conquer" which Grk word IS later used of the one in [later, chronologically] Rev11:7 and 13:7 "and he overcame [them, 13:7; 'and shall overcome them, and kill them' 11:7]… much more I could say...)


    So, whereas I see "the 4 living creatures" to be IN SOME WAY representatives of "the 4-directional plotment of Israel" [in OT times, for their description matches these], I believe "the 24 elders" (sitting on "24 thrones" and wearing "stephanos/crowns" [like Paul was promised, but "not to him only" 2Tim4:8 "IN THAT DAY" ('the Day of Christ' when WE are UP THERE "WITH [G4862] HIM")]) are representative of "the Church which is His body" FOLLOWING a "searching judgment" (as indicated by the words in Rev5:4 "was found," LIKE is used of Paul's courtroom trials [etc] in the latter parts of Acts); and indicated also by what THEY (the 24 elders) say in Rev5:9 [distinct from v.10] which is "and hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (the next verse being the others saying OF THEM/OF the 24 elders, "and hast made THEM unto our God kings and priests: and THEY shall reign on the earth", in a kind of "antiphonal singing" where even MORE voices are added further on down in the passage)]


    I like what William Kelly says about 1 Chronicles 25 and the "24 courses" (especially in view of what I'd put in the other thread about what Hebrews 9:8-9a says "which is a parable for the present time" and speaks there of "the tabernacle in the wilderness" [a parable of the present time, when WE "the Church which is His body" are here (in the wilderness), "the first tabernacle yet having A STANDING/stasis"]), note the following:

    [quoting Wm Kelly]

    ""In 1 Chronicles 25 we have the service of song. "Moreover, David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries [/earthen vessels], and with cymbals." It is called "prophesying" because it so directly brought in God, which is the emphatic meaning of prophesying. "And the number of the workmen according to their service was" - so and so. There were twenty-four courses of the singers. Now, this was another remarkable change. In the tabernacle, song was not the characteristic feature, but sacrifice; but in the temple in the day of glory, the song of triumph is the new and suitable feature."

    --William Kelly, 1 Chronicles 25 [see especially verse 7]

    [note: v.1 "with harps [see Rev5], with psalteries ['earthen vessels'], and with cymbals"...hmmm...]


    [end quoting; bold/underline emphasis mine]


    It would take a LOT to convince me that "the 24 elders" are not representing "the Church which is His body" FOLLOWING a "searching judgment" (with SEAL #1 opening being at the START of the "7-yr trib," which will unfold upon the earth, whereas these are already in Heaven at this point in the chronology).

    That, plus the thing I've posted before, about how the phrase "in the twinkling of an eye" refers to "the precise moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is 8-degrees below the horizon AT SUNDOWN" (i.e. the "IN THE NIGHT" ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" TIME PERIOD (ALL of the "LIGHT BULBS" will have been RELOCATED / "a standing away [from a previous standing]"/ "apo stasis"), and will be involving "judgments" and "the man of sin's ARRIVAL [2Th2:9a]" and other passages using this "in the night" phrase such as Dan7:7 and Gen46:2 and one in Jeremiah that relates, as I recall [but forget the reference, at present])… and so much more...
    I like to keep things simple. Rev 13 describes the beast coming to power with deceiving signs and wonders 42 months before the end.

    So when 2 Thess 2 describes the man of sin coming to power and being revealed with deceiving signs and wonders, I see this as the same moment 42 months before the end.

    You need to reason with me why the two events do not match, or if you think they do match, then you need to reason why the Rev 13 event is not 42 months before the end. Without that reasoning, you are merely telling me, I think this, or I think that. Which doesn't help to convince me because of the strength of my reasoning for placing the revealing 42 months before the end.

  8. #38

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I like to keep things simple. Rev 13 describes the beast coming to power with deceiving signs and wonders 42 months before the end.

    So when 2 Thess 2 describes the man of sin coming to power and being revealed with deceiving signs and wonders, I see this as the same moment 42 months before the end.

    You need to reason with me why the two events do not match, or if you think they do match, then you need to reason why the Rev 13 event is not 42 months before the end. Without that reasoning, you are merely telling me, I think this, or I think that. Which doesn't help to convince me because of the strength of my reasoning for placing the revealing 42 months before the end.
    Wait a sec... are you saying that you believe "the false prophet" is the man of sin (vv.11-15, vv.13-14 esp), or "the first beast ['out of the sea']" (vv.1,4-7 [the "mouth" which is comparable to the "mouth" in Dan7:20-21 ['whose look was more stout than his fellows'],24b-25])?? Which?

    ...coz I agree SOMEWHAT with SOME of what you're saying about the 3.5 yrs... I just disagree that this is when "the man of sin BE REVEALED"... or that this [mid-trib] is the point in time when he "comes onto the scene" so to speak (per what I've put in past posts). This Rev13 passage just says, "and power was given unto him to continue 42 mos" (and certain other things come into play at this point, like "the mark of the beast" and so forth, as I see it), but not that this is his first moments of doing anything on the earthly scene (in the 7-yr trib)… I compare the "be revealed [passive]" to be the moment Jesus (IN HEAVEN [in a "judgment" scene]) opens SEAL #1 [comparing the parallels I've given alongside this point in the chronology, like, for one, how Dan9:27a[26]=2Th2:9a "whose COMING"(<--man of sin)… "for ONE WEEK [7-yrs]"])

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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Wait a sec... are you saying that you believe "the false prophet" is the man of sin (vv.11-15, vv.13-14 esp), or "the first beast ['out of the sea']" (vv.1,4-7 [the "mouth" which is comparable to the "mouth" in Dan7:20-21 ['whose look was more stout than his fellows'],24b-25])?? Which?

    ...coz I agree SOMEWHAT with SOME of what you're saying about the 3.5 yrs... I just disagree that this is when "the man of sin BE REVEALED"... or that this [mid-trib] is the point in time when he "comes onto the scene" so to speak (per what I've put in past posts). This Rev13 passage just says, "and power was given unto him to continue 42 mos" (and certain other things come into play at this point, like "the mark of the beast" and so forth, as I see it), but not that this is his first moments of doing anything on the earthly scene (in the 7-yr trib)… I compare the "be revealed [passive]" to be the moment Jesus (IN HEAVEN [in a "judgment" scene]) opens SEAL #1 [comparing the parallels I've given alongside this point in the chronology, like, for one, how Dan9:27a[26]=2Th2:9a "whose COMING"(<--man of sin)… "for ONE WEEK [7-yrs]"])
    I believe the boastful man of Rev 13 (first beast given a mouth like a man) is the man of sin. Rev 13 is clear the boastful man has authority for 42 months and the world worships him and he is associated with deceiving signs in the sky. The second beast clearly has a supportive role in v11-17, and even the deceiving signs are in support of the first beast.

    2 Thess 2 has a boastful man coming to power, and being revealed amidst deceiving signs and wonders.

    Of course it is the same moment. 42 months, not 84 months. It is the revealing that is associated with the authority and the worship:

    Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.....

    The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders

    It all looks like the same moment to me, so on this we will have to disagree. I agree he exists before the revealing so obviously he does things before, but the restrainer is taken out the way at the moment of revealing, according to the text. For those who believe in a 7 year trib, that would be a mid-trib moment.

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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I believe the boastful man of Rev 13 (first beast given a mouth like a man) is the man of sin. Rev 13 is clear the boastful man has authority for 42 months and the world worships him and he is associated with deceiving signs in the sky.
    There is no person who is part of the first beast and it is the second beast who is associated with deceiving signs from the sky.

    Rev 13:11* And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.*
    Rev 13:12* And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.*
    Rev 13:13* And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,*
    Rev 13:14* And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.*


    This is the man of sin, the antichrist.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    There is no person who is part of the first beast and it is the second beast who is associated with deceiving signs from the sky.

    Rev 13:11* And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.*
    Rev 13:12* And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.*
    Rev 13:13* And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,*
    Rev 13:14* And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.*


    This is the man of sin, the antichrist.
    I see the first beast, when given a mouth, as representing the antichrist. The attributes which match the antichrist of Dan 7 and 2 Thess 2, is that he is boastful, rules for the final 3.5 years, and persecutes the saints.

    You are perfectly correct that the second beast creates the deceiving signs in the sky, Rev 13:11-17 is clear that the second beast has a supporting role to the first beast.

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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I see the first beast, when given a mouth, as representing the antichrist.
    Yet an empire can have a mouth. It's like the EU saying something...a mouth doesn't equal a person speaking. The only one who is a person is the second beast, the ruler of the empire beast which is ten kingdoms and kings.


    The attributes which match the antichrist of Dan 7 and 2 Thess 2, is that he is boastful, rules for the final 3.5 years, and persecutes the saints.
    The little horn and the false prophet are the same person who rules over the ten horned empire in both books. They are who we know as the AC. The ten horned beast is never the AC and cannot be the AC.


    You are perfectly correct that the second beast creates the deceiving signs in the sky, Rev 13:11-17 is clear that the second beast has a supporting role to the first beast.
    No, it's clear the role of leader over the first beast. He is not a supporting role to anyone except Satan. "he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him" proves he is the one of highest authority.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  13. #43
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yet an empire can have a mouth. It's like the EU saying something...a mouth doesn't equal a person speaking. The only one who is a person is the second beast, the ruler of the empire beast which is ten kingdoms and kings.




    The little horn and the false prophet are the same person who rules over the ten horned empire in both books. They are who we know as the AC. The ten horned beast is never the AC and cannot be the AC.




    No, it's clear the role of leader over the first beast. He is not a supporting role to anyone except Satan. "he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him" proves he is the one of highest authority.
    If Joseph exercises all the authority of Pharaoh, it is Pharoah who has ultimate authority and Joseph has the supporting role.

    The first beast has the authority over the nations, the dragon/Satan gave the first beast that authority. The second beast made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, the false prophet beast is a supportive influence over the nations to the first beast.

  14. #44

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Agree with that ^ .

    So I see the first beast ("from the sea" / "the MOUTH"-spokesman--AC--"man of sin" individual) to be what the following verses speak to [not the second beast "out from the earth" who LATER does the vv.13-15 signs, wonders, miracles of the MID-point+ forward], so the "beast out from the sea" would be:

    --"whose COMING/advent/arrival/presence/parousia is after the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with a deceivable of unrighteousness in them that perish..." (this doesn't have to be the same items that the LATER beast is shown to be doing at mid-trib+, as I said)

    --Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (the FIRST ONE of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]," which BPs are equivalent to "the SEALS" of Rev6 [at the START of the specific, future, limited time period--the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, aka the 7-yr trib])

    --Daniel 9:27a[26] - "the prince THAT SHALL COME"... "And he shall confirm the/ a covenant with the many for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"

    --Rev6:2 rider of the white horse with a BOW (often meaning "DECEPTION") at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period (Rev1:1/4:1/1:19c [7:3]); the FIRST SEAL that Jesus Himself opens when He will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Rev5:6; and how Lam2:3-4's wording sounds very similar to 2Th2:7b-8a when "the man of sin BE REVEALED" [the SEQUENCE repeated 3x in 2Th2--with 2Th2 covering the ENTIRE "7-yr spans" just like Daniel 9:27a/b/c[26] does!]])

    Agree with that ^ .

    So I see the first beast ("from the sea" / "the MOUTH"-spokesman--AC--"man of sin" individual) to be what the following verses speak to [not the second beast "out from the earth" who LATER does the vv.13-15 signs, wonders, miracles of the MID-point+ forward], so the "beast out from the sea" would be:

    --"whose COMING/advent/arrival/presence/parousia is after the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with a deceivable of unrighteousness in them that perish..." (this doesn't have to be the same items that the LATER beast is shown to be doing at mid-trib+, as I said)

    --Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (the FIRST ONE of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]," which BPs are equivalent to "the SEALS" of Rev6 [at the START of the specific, future, limited time period--the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, aka the 7-yr trib])

    --Daniel 9:27a[26] - "the prince THAT SHALL COME"... "And he shall confirm the/ a covenant with the many for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"

    --Rev6:2 rider of the white horse with a BOW (often meaning "DECEPTION") at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period (Rev1:1/4:1/1:19c [7:3]); the FIRST SEAL that Jesus Himself opens when He will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Rev5:6; and how Lam2:3-4's wording sounds very similar to 2Th2:7b-8a when "the man of sin BE REVEALED" [the SEQUENCE repeated 3x in 2Th2--with 2Th2 covering the ENTIRE "7-yr spans" just like Daniel 9:27a/b/c[26] does!]])

  15. #45

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    I meant I agree with:

    DurbanDude said: I see the first beast, when given a mouth, as representing the antichrist. The attributes which match the antichrist of Dan 7 and 2 Thess 2, is that he is boastful, rules for the final 3.5 years, and persecutes the saints.

    You are perfectly correct that the second beast creates the deceiving signs in the sky, Rev 13:11-17 is clear that the second beast has a supporting role to the first beast.


    .

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