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Thread: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

  1. #46
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yet an empire can have a mouth. It's like the EU saying something...a mouth doesn't equal a person speaking. The only one who is a person is the second beast, the ruler of the empire beast which is ten kingdoms and kings.




    The little horn and the false prophet are the same person who rules over the ten horned empire in both books. They are who we know as the AC. The ten horned beast is never the AC and cannot be the AC.




    No, it's clear the role of leader over the first beast. He is not a supporting role to anyone except Satan. "he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him" proves he is the one of highest authority.
    I feel the wording of Rev 13 contradicts your position, so we shall just have to agree to disagree. I believe Satan and the first beast express their authority through a human when the beast is "given a mouth" and speaks boastfully and rules for 42 months.

    This is just like the little horn of Dan 7 who is also given a mouth, and speaks boastfully and rules for 3.5 years and persecuted the saints.



    You may not see the overlaps, I see the overlaps, so we need to just agree to disagree here.

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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    If Joseph exercises all the authority of Pharaoh, it is Pharoah who has ultimate authority and Joseph has the supporting role.
    No, exercising all the authority would make Joseph Pharaoh. In this example the first beast would be the Egyptian empire, and Joseph would be Pharaoh over it. There is no second place when you have all the authority of an empire.


    The first beast has the authority over the nations, the dragon/Satan gave the first beast that authority.
    Yea and the beast is said to be ten kings and kingdoms spanning 7 mountains. The false prophet has two horns and they are two little horns according to the greek. Horns are kings in the book of Rev so that makes this one person two kings simply because he is a secret king of the first beast, and then is a new type of king openly to the world as the Ac. That's why the 8th king is also of the 7th king...it's a dual role. The AC you see in the first beast is still the false prophet, just not publicly known as the false prophet yet until it's time for him to be revealed.

    The second beast made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, the false prophet beast is a supportive influence over the nations to the first beast.
    The first beast empire is his creation so worshiping it is to worship him. It's like Hitler glorifying in people worshiping the Nazi party or the Swastika, which they did. They worshiped the whole racist superior fantasy of the Nazi's including Hitler himself. The AC wanting his own empire worshiped does not mean he is second fiddle to something or someone else.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  3. #48

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    [wish I could EDIT]

    I mean that I agree with your IDENTIFICATION of these persons (but see my previous post, where I disagree that what the ONE does at/from MID-point has to be the IDENTICAL ITEMS that the OTHER does [at a previous point in the chronology])

    [agree with DurbanDude's ID of them]

    [agree with DurbanDude's ID of them]

  4. #49
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No, exercising all the authority would make Joseph Pharaoh. In this example the first beast would be the Egyptian empire, and Joseph would be Pharaoh over it. There is no second place when you have all the authority of an empire.



    Yea and the beast is said to be ten kings and kingdoms spanning 7 mountains. The false prophet has two horns and they are two little horns according to the greek. Horns are kings in the book of Rev so that makes this one person two kings simply because he is a secret king of the first beast, and then is a new type of king openly to the world as the Ac. That's why the 8th king is also of the 7th king...it's a dual role. The AC you see in the first beast is still the false prophet, just not publicly known as the false prophet yet until it's time for him to be revealed.



    The first beast empire is his creation so worshiping it is to worship him. It's like Hitler glorifying in people worshiping the Nazi party or the Swastika, which they did. They worshiped the whole racist superior fantasy of the Nazi's including Hitler himself. The AC wanting his own empire worshiped does not mean he is second fiddle to something or someone else.
    Pharaoh put Joseph in charge of Egypt. Thus Joseph was literally exercising all the authority of Pharaoh. There is nothing grammatically incorrect about that wording, even though Pharaoh remained in ultimate authority.

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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I believe Satan and the first beast express their authority through a human when the beast is "given a mouth" and speaks boastfully and rules for 42 months.
    But you do understand that a government or empire can have a mouth that isn't belonging to a person but to the corporate concept.

    This is just like the little horn of Dan 7 who is also given a mouth, and speaks boastfully and rules for 3.5 years and persecuted the saints.
    Yes in that case it's regarding a person but there is no specifically identified person with the first beast until the FP is revealed. As I said, he was the king over the first beast but in a non-disclosed way which explains the two little horns he has and that is a clear nod to Daniel's little horn but adding info. What Daniel saw is similar to what John saw but there are differences that differentiate them.


    You may not see the overlaps, I see the overlaps, so we need to just agree to disagree here.
    I'll be happy if you can see the way I see it and why, even if you still have to disagree.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  6. #51

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Great point about deceiving signs and wonders! I often think about this when I watch shows like AGT. I am amazed at how enthralling magic, etc, is to people, including myself at times. Makes me want to be sure I ask WHO gets the glory when I see a sign and wonder. That's a big deal as we head towards the end.

  7. #52
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Pharaoh put Joseph in charge of Egypt. Thus Joseph was literally exercising all the authority of Pharaoh. There is nothing grammatically incorrect about that wording, even though Pharaoh remained in ultimate authority.
    Yes but when applying this to Rev 13, Joseph would be the Pharaoh with no one above him because that's the wording in Rev 13 regarding the FP being the ruler with all the power.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  8. #53
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    But you do understand that a government or empire can have a mouth that isn't belonging to a person but to the corporate concept.



    Yes in that case it's regarding a person but there is no specifically identified person with the first beast until the FP is revealed. As I said, he was the king over the first beast but in a non-disclosed way which explains the two little horns he has and that is a clear nod to Daniel's little horn but adding info. What Daniel saw is similar to what John saw but there are differences that differentiate them.




    I'll be happy if you can see the way I see it and why, even if you still have to disagree.
    If the text is clearly pointing to a match between the boastful mouth and 3.5 year period of the first beast with Daniel's little horn, and is clearly pointing to a supporting role of the false prophet in v11-17 I just don't get your viewpoint.

    If my son exercises all my authority, this does not make him the ultimate authority. Yet you think that type of wording points to him being the authority.

    I can't make you understand English, neither can I make you see obvious overlaps, between two entities with a boastful mouth who rule for 3.5 years and persecute the saints.

    So I cannot see why you would keep your stance, yet you ask that I understand your position, yet I don't. Grammar does not work the way that you insist it does.

  9. #54
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I believe the boastful man of Rev 13 (first beast given a mouth like a man) is the man of sin. Rev 13 is clear the boastful man has authority for 42 months and the world worships him and he is associated with deceiving signs in the sky.

    2 Thess 2 has a boastful man coming to power, and being revealed amidst deceiving signs and wonders.

    Of course it is the same moment. 42 months, not 84 months. It is the revealing that is associated with the authority and the worship:

    Donít let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in Godís temple, proclaiming himself to be God.....

    The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders

    It all looks like the same moment to me, so on this we will have to disagree. I agree he exists before, so obviously he does things before, but the restrainer is taken out the way at the moment of revealing, according to the text.


    The 'restrainer' is nothing more than Rev 7:2-3
    2Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3saying, ďDo not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.Ē

    The 1st abomination & 'antichrist' arrives at the 'day of the lord' 6th Seal/ the start of the 7 Trumpets.

    Lev 26:18 And if in spite of this you will not listen to me, then I will discipline you again sevenfold for your sins,


    The unfaithful are punished 7 times, the faithful are gathered on earth (there is no such thing as a 'whisked away' rapture). But... within this gathered group are tares. This 'anti-beast' crowd is the group called the 'earth'.

    The essence of the trick here is that the 'sea' & 'earth' are in opposition to each other, as in Rev 12:15-17. In modern terms, this is nothing different than Republicans vs Democrats (in USA politics, conservatives vs liberals) with both being evil.

    The false prophet is initially against the beast & abomination (in the same manner that Maccabeus was against Antiochus). The False Prophet & the Pope of Mystery Babylon are 2 separate entities & are against the beast in its 1st phase (which looks to be what is called 'the Illuminati'). Put another way, the Illuminati libertarians will be in opposition to socialist UN & the Pope. (the king of the South = Spiritual 'Egypt' aka the Illuminati vs. the king of the North = Spiritual Babylon/ the UN, the flag of which is oriented from the North Pole).

    At the 7th Trumpet, the tares that were still within the 'earth' segment will be tempted to go with the False Prophet when the Pope of Mystery Babylon is destroyed. People will be convinced that this Pope is some sort of alien vampire (as part of the 'lying signs & wonders'). The people that were in the 'earth' segment who join the False Prophet in worshiping the person that they had previously hated, will then receive the 7 Bowls of wrath (the initial rebels of apostasy from the very start of the Day of the Lord's wrath are still receiving 7 punishments because the 7 bowls of wrath are encoded within the 7th Trumpet).

    The False Prophet is the one who receives power from the ten horns after Mystery Babylon (with its Pope) is destroyed.

    As an illustration, let's say that Pres Trump is the 'mortally head wounded' 'antichrist'. (not saying he is, it's just an example) Would plenty of Republicans worship him? Yep. Would Democrats hate him even more? Maybe? Anyway, plenty of people would still hate him and not join with him. The Pope comes along against him and everyone has a focal point to rally around in opposition to Trump. In addition to the Pope, there is some sort of likable charismatic entity like a Superman who is against Trump. Evangelical Christians 'know' that the Pope is the 'antichrist', so they cling even harder to Trump.

    Then 3.5 years later, the Pope is 'revealed' to be some sort of 'alien vampire' (the personification of pure evil) (= 'they hate the whore & burn her with fire), the False Prophet, the likable Superman, kills the Pope & Mystery Babylon and says, something to the effect of, 'Trump, you were right all along.' The tares join with the sea and then are burned.

  10. #55
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yet an empire can have a mouth. It's like the EU saying something...a mouth doesn't equal a person speaking. The only one who is a person is the second beast, the ruler of the empire beast which is ten kingdoms and kings.




    The little horn and the false prophet are the same person who rules over the ten horned empire in both books. They are who we know as the AC. The ten horned beast is never the AC and cannot be the AC.




    No, it's clear the role of leader over the first beast. He is not a supporting role to anyone except Satan. "he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him" proves he is the one of highest authority.
    I would think the AC would be demanding that he himself be worshiped. When it comes to the fp, the fp is not demanding anyone worship him, but is demanding that the beast be worshiped, and it's image, etc.

    Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

    This is meaning the AC. In Rev 13 it's not the fp who is the one fitting these things, it's the first beast who is the one fitting these things, meaning this one...one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed.

    Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


    And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things(Revelation 13:5)....and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods(Daniel 11:36)...And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name(Revelation 13:6)


    and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done(Daniel 11:36)....and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months(Revelation 13:5).


    Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
    33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
    34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
    35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.


    And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them(Revelation 13:7)...basically referring to Daniel 11:32-35.

    Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

    and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate....basically meaning in the middle of the 70th week, which then causes the GT to be underway, meaning the 42 month reign of the beast.

  11. #56
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post

    I can't make you understand English
    This is definitely where the conversation needs to end. I'm just going to delete everything I typed and move on.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yes but when applying this to Rev 13, Joseph would be the Pharaoh with no one above him because that's the wording in Rev 13 regarding the FP being the ruler with all the power.
    It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast,
    If my son exercises all my authority on my behalf, I remain the ultimate authority.

    If Joseph exercises all Pharaoh's authority on Pharaoh's behalf, Pharoah remains the ultimate authority.

    If the second beast exercises all the first beasts authority on the first beasts behalf, the first beast remains the ultimate authority.

    If Goring exercises all of Hitlers authority, on Hitlers behalf, Hitler remains the ultimate authority.

    I can see the possibility in your wording, but you cannot keep insisting your interpretation is the only way. That is the part I just do not understand. And the fact that
    The first beast fits Dan 7 so well, and the wording of the second beast of v11-17 so obviously shows the supporting role, I remain bewildered by your view, rather than understanding of your view.

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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    This is definitely where the conversation needs to end. I'm just going to delete everything I typed and move on.
    No problem, but I still fail to understand how you can still insist wording has to be interpreted only your way, when grammar obviously does not support your viewpoint as the only possible interpretation.

    This is why I referred to your understanding of English.

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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I would think the AC would be demanding that he himself be worshiped.
    He does but in Rev 13 shows he wants his empire to be worshiped. It's really the same thing as worshiping him.


    When it comes to the fp, the fp is not demanding anyone worship him, but is demanding that the beast be worshiped, and it's image, etc.
    And it's his creation that represents himself.

    Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

    This is meaning the AC. In Rev 13 it's not the fp who is the one fitting these things, it's the first beast who is the one fitting these things, meaning this one...one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed.

    Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


    And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things(Revelation 13:5)....and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods(Daniel 11:36)...And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name(Revelation 13:6)
    There are some differences between what the beasts and people do in Daniel vs. Rev. The empire having a mouth in Rev 13, and the little horn in Daniel having a mouth and speaking identical things doesn't mean the Rev 13 sea beast isn't just an empire with a mouth. Wouldn't the empire say the same evil things the AC would?


    Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. Little horn is the antichrist.
    Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. False prophet is the antichrist.

    Isn't this a proper identification of the AC in both books?

    In neither is some extra person who was there before the little horn or false prophet but somehow there is this other guy in Rev 13.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #60

    Cool Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    He does but in Rev 13 shows he wants his empire to be worshiped. It's really the same thing as worshiping him.




    And it's his creation that represents himself.



    There are some differences between what the beasts and people do in Daniel vs. Rev. The empire having a mouth in Rev 13, and the little horn in Daniel having a mouth and speaking identical things doesn't mean the Rev 13 sea beast isn't just an empire with a mouth. Wouldn't the empire say the same evil things the AC would?


    Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. Little horn is the antichrist.
    Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. False prophet is the antichrist.

    Isn't this a proper identification of the AC in both books?

    In neither is some extra person who was there before the little horn or false prophet but somehow there is this other guy in Rev 13.
    I agree wholeheartedly with ewq about the false prophet and antichrist being the same person.

    I will also add that I think we need to view Revelation 12 as the history of the world from beginning to end, as an overview.

    Satan was cast out of heaven before the Garden of Eden. That is not some future event.

    He still accused God's creation of man as being unable to live sinlessly until the crucifixion of Christ.

    Jesus proved otherwise.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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