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Thread: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

  1. #136
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Maybe the reason I'm incapable of not understanding what you wrote is not my fault, but your fault for presenting something that is rendering verse 1 nonsensical. .
    The context is clear that some people thought Christ could come back at any moment and Paul corrected them and gave two very big events that must happen first before Christ returns. He is arguing against a pre-trib second coming, which is also against a pre-trib rapture. The falling away is the start of the GT, and the revealing of the man of sin is at the end of the GT so Paul is saying the entire GT must happen first before Jesus returns.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Maybe the reason I'm incapable of not understanding what you wrote is not my fault, but your fault for presenting something that is rendering verse 1 nonsensical. .
    The context is clear that some people thought Christ could come back at any moment and Paul corrected them and gave two very big events that must happen first before Christ returns. He is arguing against a pre-trib second coming, which is also against a pre-trib rapture. The falling away is the start of the GT, and the revealing of the man of sin is at the end of the GT so Paul is saying the entire GT must happen first before Jesus returns.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  2. #137

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The context is clear that some people thought Christ could come back at any moment and Paul corrected them and gave […]
    I disagree.

    You (I believe) are basing this idea largely on what he wrote in verse 2.

    But verse 2 is not conveying the idea you've expressed above, but INSTEAD:

    --[basically Paull conveying to them] "don't believe anyone trying to convince you that 'the Day of the Lord' IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]..."

    This is NOT conveying [the idea] "[purporting] that [the coming of] CHRIST is NEAR/could come back AT ANY MOMENT"

    Not at all what the text is conveying.

    By missing what verse 2 is actually conveying, ppl inject their own interpretation of the entire passage, thus missing what point [or points] Paul is making.

  3. #138

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    So the Greek word for "IS PRESENT" (in v.2) is "G1764" and is "PERFECT indicative"... which the "PERFECT tense" means:

    "ACTION COMPLETED at a SPECIFIC POINT of TIME in PAST (●) with results CONTINUING into the PRESENT (▬►)."


    https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm


    .

  4. #139
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I disagree.

    You (I believe) are basing this idea largely on what he wrote in verse 2.

    But verse 2 is not conveying the idea you've expressed above, but INSTEAD:

    --[basically Paull conveying to them] "don't believe anyone trying to convince you that 'the Day of the Lord' IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]..."

    This is NOT conveying [the idea] "[purporting] that [the coming of] CHRIST is NEAR/could come back AT ANY MOMENT"
    That is what he was conveying. The proof is that he listed two events that happen before the second coming can happen. That proves Christ could not just return and surprise believers because they had two major signs to watch for. Unbelievers did not benefit from knowing oif these signs and therefore could be surprised like a thief in the night.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I disagree.

    You (I believe) are basing this idea largely on what he wrote in verse 2.

    But verse 2 is not conveying the idea you've expressed above, but INSTEAD:

    --[basically Paull conveying to them] "don't believe anyone trying to convince you that 'the Day of the Lord' IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]..."

    This is NOT conveying [the idea] "[purporting] that [the coming of] CHRIST is NEAR/could come back AT ANY MOMENT"
    That is what he was conveying. The proof is that he listed two events that happen before the second coming can happen. That proves Christ could not just return and surprise believers because they had two major signs to watch for. Unbelievers did not benefit from knowing oif these signs and therefore could be surprised like a thief in the night.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  5. #140

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That is what he was conveying. The proof is that he listed two events that happen before the second coming can happen.
    Disagree that this is Paul's point there.

    He's saying that two pieces of evidence that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" [coz it wasn't] are not in play... but that when they are, that's when "the Day of the Lord" will INDEED BE PRESENT. The Day of the Lord ARRIVES/STARTS, like Paul said in 1Th5:2-3, like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (that COMES UPON a woman in labor/with child); and then

    ...many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" follow on from there [Jesus spoke of them in His Olivet Discourse (see the FIRST of THESE in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (bringing DECEPTION)] and these BPs go on to LEAD UP TO His [Jesus'] Second Coming to the earth (SEAL #1 = the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]; and the rest of "the beginning of birth pangS [PLURAL] parallel the other SEALS--these are all at the START of the future, specific, limited TIME PERIOD that leads UP TO His Second Coming to the earth, and therefore is INCLUDED in the TIME PERIOD known as "the DOTL" [NOT a "singular 24-hr day" as the day of Christ's "RETURN" to the earth! nor even that as being its STARTING-POINT]).

    The Thessalonians wrongly believed [or were at risk of wrongly believing] that "the Day of the Lord [TIME PERIOD which includes JUDGMENTS over the course of some TIME] IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative--that that time period had already arrived and that they were IN IT and EXPERIENCING IT (ongoingly!)]"... Paul is telling them WHY this is NOT SO [why it is true that it is NOT PRESENT].


    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That proves Christ could not just return and surprise believers because they had two major signs to watch for. Unbelievers did not benefit from knowing oif these signs and therefore could be surprised like a thief in the night.

  6. #141

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Verse 3 - "that day [referring to the TIME PERIOD mentioned in the IMMEDIATELY PRECEDING verse, grammatically] will NOT be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [ONE THING *FIRST*], AND the man of sin be revealed..."

    That ONE THING *FIRST* (which must take place before the TIME PERIOD which involves JUDGMENTS unfolding over the course of some time!) is [the text states] "THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* (the one ALREADY mentioned PREVIOUSLY in this text), the SUBJECT of VERSE 1! ("our episynagoges UNTO HIM [i.e. IN THE AIR]"--THE DEPARTURE!)

  7. #142
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Disagree that this is Paul's point there.

    He's saying that two pieces of evidence that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT"
    No, he is clear the day had not come nor was present and gives those two events that must happen first. You are as mistaken about what is being said as the Thessalonians were.

    2Th 2:3* Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  8. #143
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Disagree that this is Paul's point there.

    He's saying that two pieces of evidence that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" [coz it wasn't] are not in play... but that when they are, that's when "the Day of the Lord" will INDEED BE PRESENT. The Day of the Lord ARRIVES/STARTS, like Paul said in 1Th5:2-3, like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (that COMES UPON a woman in labor/with child); and then

    ...many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" follow on from there [Jesus spoke of them in His Olivet Discourse (see the FIRST of THESE in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (bringing DECEPTION)] and these BPs go on to LEAD UP TO His [Jesus'] Second Coming to the earth (SEAL #1 = the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]; and the rest of "the beginning of birth pangS [PLURAL] parallel the other SEALS--these are all at the START of the future, specific, limited TIME PERIOD that leads UP TO His Second Coming to the earth, and therefore is INCLUDED in the TIME PERIOD known as "the DOTL" [NOT a "singular 24-hr day" as the day of Christ's "RETURN" to the earth! nor even that as being its STARTING-POINT]).

    The Thessalonians wrongly believed [or were at risk of wrongly believing] that "the Day of the Lord [TIME PERIOD which includes JUDGMENTS over the course of some TIME] IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative--that that time period had already arrived and that they were IN IT and EXPERIENCING IT (ongoingly!)]"... Paul is telling them WHY this is NOT SO [why it is true that it is NOT PRESENT].
    1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


    In your opinion what caused Paul to bring up the day of the Lord in the letter he was writing them? Does verse 1 by itself explain why? I'm not seeing how it could. And speaking of verse 1, what's that all about? In your opinion as well, what caused him to bring that up at this particular time in the letter? There are no other verses in chapter 5 before verse 1 that might explain why, but there are verses at the end of chapter 4 though.

  9. #144

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


    In your opinion what caused Paul to bring up the day of the Lord in the letter he was writing them? Does verse 1 by itself explain why? I'm not seeing how it could. And speaking of verse 1, what's that all about? In your opinion as well, what caused him to bring that up at this particular time in the letter? There are no other verses in chapter 5 before verse 1 that might explain why, but there are verses at the end of chapter 4 though.
    "The Day of the Lord" [which is an EARTHLY *TIME PERIOD* involving JUDGMENTS-followed-by-BLESSING (picture it like this: " .-----> )] follows immediately on the heels of "our Rapture/THE Departure [IN THE AIR]," and it is THIS SEQUENCE that Paul is REITERATING in 2Th2 (in fact, 3x in this context), which was the SEQUENCE he was also speaking of in 1Th4-5.

    So you are asking, "why did Paul bring that Subject up in 1Th5?" I believe he is saying, "you know perfectly that that [earthly] time period ARRIVES like a thief IN THE NIGHT / suddenly / like the INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR] COMES UPON a woman in labor/with child... but YOU are not in darkness that that day [the EARTHLY time period which STARTS with JUDGMENTS] should OVERTAKE [grab hold of you to possess you] as a thief..." because of what verses 9-10 go on to say (that's the reason [plz see those verses! and recall what I'd pointed out about the same two Grk words that are in v.10 being the same two words as in v.6!], along with v.8c's reference to "[putting on] the helmet [i.e. "understanding"] of salvation [with 'salvation' in these THESS CONTEXTS is an "eschatological salvation," such as in 1Thess1:10--"the One delivering us out from the wrath coming [that is, coming on the earth]")… There's more I could say, but I hope just this much helps you in your specific question

    (Paul's "teaching"/doctrine involved informing them ['the Church which is His body' (which includes us, Eph1:20-23 WHEN)] of "our episynagoges UNTO HIM [IN THE AIR] / the 'harpagēsometha [G726]' / 'THE DEPARTURE'" and how [when] THAT "fits" IN RELATION [time-wise] TO what other events)

    [picture "our Rapture" as "ARROW UP]

  10. #145

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No, he is clear the day had not come nor was present and gives those two events that must happen first. You are as mistaken about what is being said as the Thessalonians were.

    2Th 2:3* Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    Did you read my whole post? (or many I'm mis-reading your latest post/response--it SOUNDS to me like you've mis-read mine)

    *I'm* not saying "the Day of the Lord is present"... I'm saying that verse 2 is Paul telling THEM not to freak out and not to be convinced by anyone TELLING them "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]"... It wasn't, and Paul is telling them WHY

    It was a perfectly REASONABLE thing for them to be convinced of (that it "IS PRESENT" [tho it wasn't!]) BECAUSE of their PRESENT, and ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE things they were ONGOINGLY ENDURING/EXPERIENCING (2Th1:4!!)

    They were NOT being convinced of something UNREASONABLE or IRRATIONAL...

    but be sure, that whatever the text is speaking of, it uses the phrase "IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative, meaning ALREADY PRESENT, ALREADY having ARRIVED/BEGUN and presently IN PLAY]" (<--this is what the false-conveyors were trying to CONVINCE them was true! [per v.2])

  11. #146

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    P.S. forgot to mention again in that post... the phrase "a falling away" is not accurate.

    The first 7 English translations (before the kjv changed it to "a falling away" and neglected the definite article ['the'] that should be there) correctly translated it as "the departure" or "the departing [noun]"... the Grk word for "fall" is "pipto" so it would be something more along those lines, if that were the idea intended to be conveyed here (it isn't).

    The basic meaning of the Greek word is "DEPARTURE," and it is up to the CONTEXT to determine "WHAT KIND" of departure is meant. I explained this at length in past posts.

  12. #147

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    [for example, "a departure FROM MOSES" is not what is being conveyed HERE, as it is in the Acts text of this word]

  13. #148
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    It was a perfectly REASONABLE thing for them to be convinced of (that it "IS PRESENT" [tho it wasn't!]) BECAUSE of their PRESENT, and ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE things they were ONGOINGLY ENDURING/EXPERIENCING (2Th1:4!!)
    That is exactly the evidence to show the second coming had not yet come. Those things are experienced before the second coming not after it.


    They were NOT being convinced of something UNREASONABLE or IRRATIONAL...
    I would say it was highly irrational. Who could think the second coming was a past event and the world still be exactly as it always had been?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  14. #149
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    P.S. forgot to mention again in that post... the phrase "a falling away" is not accurate.

    The first 7 English translations (before the kjv changed it to "a falling away" and neglected the definite article ['the'] that should be there) correctly translated it as "the departure" or "the departing [noun]"... the Grk word for "fall" is "pipto" so it would be something more along those lines, if that were the idea intended to be conveyed here (it isn't).

    The basic meaning of the Greek word is "DEPARTURE," and it is up to the CONTEXT to determine "WHAT KIND" of departure is meant. I explained this at length in past posts.
    No, Apostasy is well known to be a departure from a faith or true belief, from a true God to a false God, etc.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #150
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    "The Day of the Lord" [which is an EARTHLY *TIME PERIOD* involving JUDGMENTS-followed-by-BLESSING (picture it like this: " .-----> )] follows immediately on the heels of "our Rapture/THE Departure [IN THE AIR]," and it is THIS SEQUENCE that Paul is REITERATING in 2Th2 (in fact, 3x in this context), which was the SEQUENCE he was also speaking of in 1Th4-5.

    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


    How can the above immedietely follow the rapture, if the 3.5 year GT has to follow the rapture? I don't see it making any sense that any of the above can be taking place during the GT, especially at the beginning of it.

    Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

    This verse appears to indicate that the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood first, followed by the DOTL.

    Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair(Revelation 6:12)...shall the sun be darkened(Matthew 24:29)

    and the moon became as blood(Revelation 6:12)....and the moon shall not give her light(Matthew 24:29)


    And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth(Revelation 6:13)....and the stars shall fall from heaven(Matthew 24:29)


    And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together(Revelation 6:14)....and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken(Matthew 24:29)


    Clearly Matt 24:29 proves Revelation 6:12-14 is meaning after the GT, therefore making the DOTL after the GT, also according to Acts 2:20, since that verse indicates, The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood(Revelation 6:12), occurs before that great and notable day of the Lord come

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