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Thread: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

  1. #151

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No, Apostasy is well known to be a departure from a faith or true belief, from a true God to a false God, etc.
    ewq, did you happen to read the article I'd posted (by Greek scholar Kenneth S Weust) in the "called to" thread?

    --Post #93 - https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...67#post3560067

    --would also recommend reading that article ^ in conjunction with what I'd also put in Posts #94-96 (same page 7)

    --also recommend my Post #79 (page 6) of that thread

    --as well as my Post #72 (page 5) of that thread


    All of these relate somewhat (or especially so) to this particular topic (the phrase "he apostasia" as it is used in 2Th2:3, and/or its context)

  2. #152

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Clearly Matt 24:29 proves Revelation 6:12-14 is meaning after the GT, therefore making the DOTL after the GT, also according to Acts 2:20, since that verse indicates, The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood(Revelation 6:12), occurs before that great and notable day of the Lord come
    Let me start with this ^ .

    I believe "the moon shall not give her light" (Matt24:29) and "the moon into blood/became as blood" (Rev6:12/Joel2:31/Act2:20) are speaking of two entirely DISTINCT things at entirely DISTINCT time-slots (and DESCRIBED in entirely DISTINCT ways!)

    --Matt24:29 is "AFTER the tribulation of those days" (speaking specifically of what FOLLOWS the "2nd half" of trib)

    --Rev6:12/Joel2:31/Act2:20, at the 6th SEAL time slot (speaking specifically of what PRECEDES the "2nd half" of trib, in its specific wording of "BEFORE the GREAT!" [the "GREAT" aspect of it, being SPECIFICALLY the "2nd half"! per both Matt24:15,21 and Rev7:14, starting WELL-AFTER the "6th SEAL" events])… so THIS one ("moon INTO BLOOD/BECAME AS BLOOD") takes place BEFORE the mid-point, and WELL-BEFORE the END of the trib that Matt24:29-31 is speaking of. "INTO BLOOD/BECAME AS BLOOD" is a completely DISTINCT description from "shall NOT GIVE HER LIGHT"... and that is on top of noting the TIMING/CHRONOLOGY clues I mentioned (which [timing-details/'chronology'] I find many folks commonly tend to disregard or overlook, when considering these things).

  3. #153

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Recall, I've said, "the DOTL" is a very long time period (not merely a singular 24-hr day; or not merely starting off the MK age, neither of these....)

  4. #154
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    P.S. forgot to mention again in that post... the phrase "a falling away" is not accurate.

    The first 7 English translations (before the kjv changed it to "a falling away" and neglected the definite article ['the'] that should be there) correctly translated it as "the departure" or "the departing [noun]"... the Grk word for "fall" is "pipto" so it would be something more along those lines, if that were the idea intended to be conveyed here (it isn't).

    The basic meaning of the Greek word is "DEPARTURE," and it is up to the CONTEXT to determine "WHAT KIND" of departure is meant. I explained this at length in past posts.
    World English Bible

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (WEB) Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
    https://www.biblestudytools.com/2-th...3-compare.html


    This translation says 'the departure'. But notice what it says though. It doesn't say...For it will not be, unless the departure comes first

    What it says is...For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

    It clearly means that unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, it will not be until both those things are fulfilled first.

    There is no way according to this translation, that even though it translated it the departure, that it is meaning a Pretrib rapture. AFAIK, Pretrib does not believe the man of sin is revealed before the rapture. Pretrib believes the man of sin is revealed after the rapture.

  5. #155

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    World English Bible

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (WEB) Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
    https://www.biblestudytools.com/2-th...3-compare.html


    This translation says 'the departure'. But notice what it says though. It doesn't say...For it will not be, unless the departure comes first

    What it says is...For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

    It clearly means that unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, it will not be until both those things are fulfilled first.
    The text states specifically, "shall NOT be [implying 'present'--shall not be present] if not shall have come [/happens] THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [THAT ONE item is what is stated to be *FIRST* (and IT ALONE as *FIRST*)] AND [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed [<---I gave the parallels I see to this thing, occurring at its "kick-off"/"STARTING" point, i.e. the BEGINNING of the 7-yr trib, just like in Dan9:27a[26 "prince THAT SHALL COME"] (like in 2Th2:9a/8a "whose COMING"[/man of sin]), where 9:27b points to the MIDDLE-trib events (like in 2Th2:4), and 9:27c points to the END trib events (like in 2Th2:8b)--BOTH PASSAGES covering ALL SEVEN YEARS (same as in Matt24:4/Mk13:5... Matt24:15-16... Matt24:29-31; and same as in Rev6:2... Rev13:5-7... Rev19)]



    There is no way according to this translation, that even though it translated it the departure, that it is meaning a Pretrib rapture. AFAIK, Pretrib does not believe the man of sin is revealed before the rapture. Pretrib believes the man of sin is revealed after the rapture.
    "...THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* // AND the man of sin be revealed" (<--the DOTL TIME PERIOD will THEN "be in play" to unfold upon the earth with its JUDGMENTS and so forth... leading UP TO His/Jesus' 2nd Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, promised to Israel [WE ('the Church which is His body') "return" WITH CHRIST at this point in the chronology--those having come to faith WITHIN/DURING the trib, will either be "resurrected" if they DIED during the trib, or be "still-living" when they all ENTER the MK age, never having lifted off the earth--the Olivet Discourse and Matthew 13 speaks of these, not to mention Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as and ALREADY-WED Bridegroom!), THEN the meal! (aka the earthly MK age!)]).

  6. #156

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Paul is addressing the problem being expressed in verse 2 (their incorrect notion someone was trying to CONVINCE them of: "that the DOTL *IS PRESENT*).

    So in verse 3 he's telling them WHY this is NOT SO.

    Because that time period involving JUDGMENTS (and 'the man of sin' and ALL he is slated to DO DURING the 7-yr aspect of the entire long time period known as "the DOTL") will not be in existence to play out upon the earth over the course of some time until/unless OUR RAPTURE [THE DEPARTURE] takes place *FIRST*

    He is conveying a SEQUENCE here (and one that is entirely consistent with the SEQUENCE he spoke of in 1Th4-5 also!)… WHAT is to happen WHEN in relation [time-wise] to what OTHER THING

  7. #157

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    ^ In view of what I've written in these past two posts ^ , see again my "illustration / depiction" OF THIS in my Post #72 (page 5) in the "calling to" thread:

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...27#post3560027

  8. #158

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I would say it was highly irrational. Who could think the second coming was a past event and the world still be exactly as it always had been?
    Paul is not talking about "His Second Coming" in verse 2 (when he speaks of the DOTL in that verse).

    Paul is not saying "don't let anyone try to convince you of something totally IRRATIONAL" (as though they were idiots). He'd already stated in his PREVIOUS letter, that "they KNEW PERFECTLY that the DOTL so cometh [arrives] as a thief in the night"... How do you propose they "KNEW [this] PERFECTLY" if Paul is, in his second letter, supposedly talking to them as if they were highly irrational idiots, being convinced by others of totally ludicrous idea which they had absolutely ZERO evidence toward ("[purporting] that the DOTL *IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]*"<---THIS is what the text states Paul is addressing in this verse, NOT any thing else that ppl like to misconstrue this verse to be saying because they fail to grasp just WHAT the prophetic scriptures TELL/DESCRIBE/DEFINE "the DOTL" is --tho the Thessalonians understood THAT part correctly! [WHAT it is!])

  9. #159
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Paul is not talking about "His Second Coming" in verse 2 (when he speaks of the DOTL in that verse).
    Yes he is. There is no doubt possible about that.

    2Th 2:1* Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,*
    2Th 2:2* That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.*


    The coming of the Lord and us gathering unto him is a clear and non-debatable proof of the second coming and rapture being spoken of.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  10. #160

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yes he is. There is no doubt possible about that.

    2Th 2:1* Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,*
    2Th 2:2* That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.*
    --first of all, the word in verse 2 is NOT "is AT HAND [/near to come]," but is "IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" and THAT means, "has already arrived at some point in the PAST and its effects are still ongoing in the present"-- https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm - "G1764 - enestēken V-RIA-3S / enistémi --in the PERFECT tense, it is always translated as meaning that something is already present/in existence: [see here-->] https://biblehub.com/greek/1764.htm … so whatever the verse is speaking of, the idea being expressed (that Paul is warning them NOT to be convinced of by OTHERS) is that it "IS PRESENT" (he's telling them WHY this IS NOT SO); it was REASONABLE for them to believe such a thing (tho false), because of what they were EXPERIENCING ongoingly: "the tribulations and persecutions which ye endure" 2Th1:4 and its CONTEXT<--this is the setting/circumstances into which Paul is sending this 2nd epistle

    --secondly, the other word in verse 2 is "[purporting as that] the Day of the LORD [is present]" - https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm - THIS is the "false idea" they were not to be being CONVINCED about nor "shaken in mind, or troubled" in thinking it was true/accurate... it WASN'T true/accurate [in verse 15 (the other end of this bracketed section), he says (essentially), "believe what WE taught you, NOT THEM!"--you are NOT *IN and EXPERIENCING 'the [already-present] DOTL' coz before it can 'be in play' you [/we] gotta BE OUTTA HERE like VERSE 1 SPEAKS OF!!<--this is his point! THIS is how the TWO VERSES *relate* to each other; they are not speaking of IDENTICAL THINGS in each of these TWO VERSES, but how the ONE thing relates [time-wise/sequence-wise] TO THE OTHER, and THAT is what VERSE 3 is saying!]

    --thirdly, according to the prophetic word, "the Day of the Lord" is ONLY ever ON THE EARTH, and it STARTS with [a period of] JUDGMENT followed by [a period of] BLESSING; it is NOT a mere "singular 24-hr day," and though it INCLUDES His Second Coming to the earth AND the ENTIRE MK age, it does not START/ARRIVE/COMMENCE at that POINT IN TIME, but PRIOR TO that point in time, and [THAT] INVOLVES "the man of sin... IN HIS TIME" (the "DARK/DARKNESS / IN THE NIGHT" aspect of the whole entire thing; not a mere 24-hrs nor even a mere 12 hrs, nor commencing at "His 2nd Coming to the earth" point in time [Rev19]; it is "DARK/DARKNESS" partly b/c ALL of the "LIGHT BULBS" will have JUST BEEN "taken OUT" [i.e. RAPTURED OUT]; the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL time period" is at the same time of the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" when he does his first action in that role [the parallels I've listed in past posts, so won't repeat here])

    --so verse 1 and verse 2 are speaking of TWO DISTINCT THINGS; verse 3 is Paul explaining how ONE thing "fits" IN RELATION [time/sequence-wise] TO the OTHER THING... ONE THING *FIRST* before the OTHER THING can "be present" to play out/unfold UPON THE EARTH[<--that's "the DOTL" that WILL play out on the earth, involving JUDGMENTS (followed-by-BLESSING)--the OT "prophesied" about THIS... However, "the Day of Christ" does NOT "play out ON THE EARTH," and is a wholly DISTINCT THING *not* being spoken of here [see link again]… most translators agree here); they were under NO SUCH DELUSION


    The coming of the Lord and us gathering unto him is a clear and non-debatable proof of the second coming and rapture being spoken of.

  11. #161

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    [got cut off] "they were under NO SUCH DELUSION that "the day of CHRIST *IS PRESENT* (the word IS "IS PRESENT")

  12. #162

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    ...and Paul repeats the "SEQUENCE" 3x in this context (see again my Post #72 [page 5] in the "called to" thread, explaining these 3x in this context).

    [the phrases] "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" refer to the SAME TIME PERIOD when mentioned within the same contexts as each other; and this IS the case ALSO with THIS CONTEXT (chapters 1 and 2, where BOTH of these RELATED PHRASES are used, thus proving it is [defined as] "a TIME PERIOD of some DURATION, existing ON THE EARTH *PRIOR* to His 'RETURN' to the earth"

  13. #163

    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    "the Day of CHRIST" (by contrast) is NOT defined in such a way

  14. #164
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    [got cut off] "they were under NO SUCH DELUSION that "the day of CHRIST *IS PRESENT* (the word IS "IS PRESENT")
    Want to make sure I'm on the same page with you, so, is the following basically your position?

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,(meaning the resurrection and rapture event found in 1 Thess 4, thus not meaning the 2nd coming)
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand(meaning the DOTL which is not meaning the resurrection and rapture event found in 1 Thess 4).
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day(meaning the day of Christ in verse 2)shall not come, except there come a falling away first(meaning a departure, meaning the resurrection and rapture event found in 1 Thess 4, thus meaning verse 1), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition(not anything that has to be fulfilled before the departure can take place);

  15. #165
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    Re: RESTRAINS THE REVEALING OF EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yes he is. There is no doubt possible about that.

    2Th 2:1* Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,*
    2Th 2:2* That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.*


    The coming of the Lord and us gathering unto him is a clear and non-debatable proof of the second coming and rapture being spoken of.
    Jesus differentiated between his parousia coming and his erchomai coming within the Olivet Discourse. Paul, John, Peter and James all continue with that differential aspect of his comings. Paul refers to the parousia in verses 1 and 8 as his "coming". The "gathering together", in itself is not the erchomai, but is what takes place afterward:

    Mar 13:27 AND THEN shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    The Day of Christ is when the gathering takes place. It is also when the man of sin is revealed. They can't take place at the same time IF the man of sin is to be revealed before or during the middle of the 70th week and the gathering takes place at the end. The coming(s) of both Christ and the man of sin are called parousia events. Paul refers to this parousia of Christ as the brightness/epiphaneia of his coming. In most of the other places where epiphaneia is used, it is translated as his appearance/ appearing. This brightness of Christ is the revealing glory of God the Father, a light that no man (humanly) can approach unto. In 2 Tim 4:1, Paul says that Christ is the mystery of godliness because he has been received up into heaven. He is referring to God's perfect picture of holiness. And because that perfect picture is now dwelling in heaven with the Father, this not only leaves US with a mysterious picture of godliness, it also leaves the world with a mysterious picture of (what constitutes) iniquity. This mysterious picture of iniquity will continue to exist in this world UNTIL the perfect picture of godliness is revealed unto all the world. When the brightness of the glory of God the Father is revealed to all the world at the parousia of Christ, (the rapture,) then, and only then, will the cloak of the mystery of iniquity be revealed also. It is only that revelation of the glory of the Father that will unveil/ reveal the man of sin. It is not the presence of the church in this world (before or after the rapture) that withholds/ restrains the powers of darkness in this world from being revealed, BUT it is only the revelation of Jesus at the rapture that will unveil the mysterious manifestations of wickedness. You may fail to realize the reality of the removal of the church prior to the 2nd coming of Jesus, at the erchomai, but i hope you can at least see the reality of the revelation of the glory of God, the blessed hope of glory, Jesus Christ the righteous one, is what will reveal the man of sin.

    Be Blessed
    The PuP

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