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Thread: Defining Divine Wrath

  1. #16

    Re: Defining Divine Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I would think the timing of Revelation 13:11-17 would be during the GT. But I wouldn't think any vials of wrath are being poured out during the 42 months though. The pouring out of the vials fit after the GT, and not during.

    They would fit during the following that I have underlined.

    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    According to this verse this is immediately after the tribulation of those days, the 42 month reign of the beast meaning the trib of those days, yet is prior to the 2nd coming found below.

    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Maybe this period after the GT, but prior to the 2nd coming, explains some of the following in Dan 12?

    Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    12*Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


    Since we already know the GT is 1260 days, that leaves 75 days remaining in order to get to day 1335. I would then place these 75 days during what I have underlined in Matthew 24:29, making day 1335 to be meaning this in Matt 24:30...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    I'm not claiming this is correct for a fact since I don't know whether it is or not. So this is just a proposed theory then that might work, and might not work. But only meaning in regards to Dan 12:11-12 though and my proposed connections with that of Matt 24:29-30.
    Well, for starters (and keeping in mind that the wording in Rev16:14-16 [at 6th Vial] is similar to the wording in Rev19:19 [at Jesus' Return to the earth], and both of these are parallel with the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23], esp 24:21-22a), it does not seem reasonable to me that "the beast and the false prophet" have to "hang out" [seemingly without any recorded purpose] for another supposed "75 days" following the "42 mos [/the GREAT tribulation, i.e. 2nd half]" before the following can be true of them:

    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, having been gathered together to make war with the One sitting on the horse and with His army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet, the one having done the signs before him, by which he deceived those having received the mark of the beast and those worshiping its image. The two were cast living into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword of the One sitting on the horse having gone forth out of his mouth.


    Since VIAL #6 is "that the way of the kings of the rising of the sun [/the east] might be prepared" (i.e. for Armageddon, to get to that location), then it seems to me that if what you suggest is true (that the Vials are only AFTER the GT['s 1260 days] and BEFORE Jesus "returns" [like, within a supposed "75-day" interval period]), that the beast and the false prophet would really seem to be serving no purpose during those supposed "75 days," which in my own study of the chronology, really seems only to amount to, at most, 3 weeks, due to what I tend to see as "overlappings" (in those "day-amounts"... which I believe are actually pointing to "specific Hebrew calendar dates" pertinent to Israel)

    --with the time-reference spelled out in 12:6-7 being a very specific "time period" [1260 days] that the Jews/Israel will come to "understand" at that future time period, Dan12:10,1-4 [same time period as shown in 7:25, followed by "the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High... and all dominions shall serve Him"... not really showing an "interval" in this particular passage; and I think 12:7 is worded even more specifically than is 7:25 [tho the same time period is being spoken of; i.e. "the second half"]).

    I don't really care to get into my study of the chronology, in this post, showing what I mean by the "overlap" [re: the 1260d, 1290d, 1335d each concluding within a SHORT(-er) amount of time than "75 days"]--only just to say that the 1335d (not "75 days" after) is indeed the "BLESSED" day, the start of the MK age, just as in about 10 passages in the NT incl'g Matt25:31-34 ['Sheep [of the nations]' (being still-living persons, at the time of His "return" to the earth, LIKE in Dan12:12!)]; Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 ['when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" THEN the meal! (i.e. the MK)]; and Rev16:15-16 & Rev19:9 [distinct from v.7], among others...

  2. #17

    Re: Defining Divine Wrath

    [and it still does not address my actual point ]

  3. #18
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    Re: Defining Divine Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The Book is called "Revelation" - "Apokalypsis" in the Greek. It means "the revealing", "the uncovering" and/or "the disclosure". The whole Book concerns the events surround the Revealing of Jesus Christ from heaven. Already in Chapter 1 verse 7 the Greek is "erchomai" - His "ARRIVAL". In Chapter 1 verse 20 seven Churches are addressed. In Chapter 2 and 3, of the seven Churches, the last four are faced with His "COMING". In Chapter 4 our Lord Jesus, Who has sat for 2,000 years in His Father's throne, now receives a crown and a throne, and the opening verse of Chapter 5 is the Seals to be opened by Him to torment men.

    The whole Book of Apocalypse concerns mostly the last 3.5 years.
    None of this is relevant to the point. Nowhere in the Apocalypse, and nowhere in the Scriptures, is the 3.5 years of Antichristian rule equated with "God's Wrath." The time period associated with the last 3.5 years of the age are *not* called "God's Wrath."

    On the other hand, God's Wrath is revealed throughout the present age. And there is coming a Day of Wrath associated with the Return of Christ. That has to do specifically with the very day that Christ returns.

  4. #19
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    Re: Defining Divine Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    On the other hand, God's Wrath is revealed throughout the present age. And there is coming a Day of Wrath associated with the Return of Christ. That has to do specifically with the very day that Christ returns.
    Amen.

    The wrath of God is not an end time event. It lives and resides on people past , present and future.


    John 3:36
    He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.



    The only way anyone from any era can remove it, is to have had a love of the truth. God knows who are they were , are and will be.



    Romans 1:18
    [ Unbelief and Its Consequences ] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

    Doesnt matter who you are or when you are born, you are stuck with it , unless you had an ear that heard and took the appropriate action.


    Romans 2:5
    But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,



    There comes a fixed day in the future when everyone who has ever lived will be aware of it, and the old order of things will be forgotten.
    That day is the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ whose already spoken word will judge you the last day.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  5. #20
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    Re: Defining Divine Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Well, for starters (and keeping in mind that the wording in Rev16:14-16 [at 6th Vial] is similar to the wording in Rev19:19 [at Jesus' Return to the earth], and both of these are parallel with the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23], esp 24:21-22a), it does not seem reasonable to me that "the beast and the false prophet" have to "hang out" [seemingly without any recorded purpose] for another supposed "75 days" following the "42 mos [/the GREAT tribulation, i.e. 2nd half]" before the following can be true of them:

    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, having been gathered together to make war with the One sitting on the horse and with His army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet, the one having done the signs before him, by which he deceived those having received the mark of the beast and those worshiping its image. The two were cast living into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword of the One sitting on the horse having gone forth out of his mouth.


    Since VIAL #6 is "that the way of the kings of the rising of the sun [/the east] might be prepared" (i.e. for Armageddon, to get to that location), then it seems to me that if what you suggest is true (that the Vials are only AFTER the GT['s 1260 days] and BEFORE Jesus "returns" [like, within a supposed "75-day" interval period]), that the beast and the false prophet would really seem to be serving no purpose during those supposed "75 days," which in my own study of the chronology, really seems only to amount to, at most, 3 weeks, due to what I tend to see as "overlappings" (in those "day-amounts"... which I believe are actually pointing to "specific Hebrew calendar dates" pertinent to Israel)

    --with the time-reference spelled out in 12:6-7 being a very specific "time period" [1260 days] that the Jews/Israel will come to "understand" at that future time period, Dan12:10,1-4 [same time period as shown in 7:25, followed by "the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High... and all dominions shall serve Him"... not really showing an "interval" in this particular passage; and I think 12:7 is worded even more specifically than is 7:25 [tho the same time period is being spoken of; i.e. "the second half"]).

    I don't really care to get into my study of the chronology, in this post, showing what I mean by the "overlap" [re: the 1260d, 1290d, 1335d each concluding within a SHORT(-er) amount of time than "75 days"]--only just to say that the 1335d (not "75 days" after) is indeed the "BLESSED" day, the start of the MK age, just as in about 10 passages in the NT incl'g Matt25:31-34 ['Sheep [of the nations]' (being still-living persons, at the time of His "return" to the earth, LIKE in Dan12:12!)]; Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 ['when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" THEN the meal! (i.e. the MK)]; and Rev16:15-16 & Rev19:9 [distinct from v.7], among others...

    I like your thinking here, you made some good points. So, what about something like the following then?

    Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

    In particular, this part....Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Why would they be thinking that during the 42 month reign if the vials of wrath were being poured out on them at the time?

    Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    This doesn't say the saints are making war against the beast, so even this doesn't answer...Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

    But the following answers it though. In particular, verse 14. But is verse 14 meaning during the 42 months though, or is it instead meaning after the 42 months? It would have to be after. You now how we know? During the 42 month reign of the beast, the beast is waging war against the saints, thus overcoming them. How could that possibly be the case if Rev 17:14 was being fulfilled during these same 42 months?

    Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
    12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
    13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
    14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    With Rev 17:14 still in mind, and that if we consider Dan 7:21-22, Rev 17:14 would be meaning as of Dan 7:22, IOW, until the Ancient of Days came, thus putting an end to the overcoming of the saints via the beast.

  6. #21
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    Re: Defining Divine Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Amen.

    The wrath of God is not an end time event. It lives and resides on people past , present and future.


    John 3:36
    He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.



    The only way anyone from any era can remove it, is to have had a love of the truth. God knows who are they were , are and will be.



    Romans 1:18
    [ Unbelief and Its Consequences ] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

    Doesnt matter who you are or when you are born, you are stuck with it , unless you had an ear that heard and took the appropriate action.


    Romans 2:5
    But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,



    There comes a fixed day in the future when everyone who has ever lived will be aware of it, and the old order of things will be forgotten.
    That day is the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ whose already spoken word will judge you the last day.
    This is a much truer, much more balanced, view of what "God's Wrath" is. Thanks! It is *not* the supposed "Great Tribulation,"which means for many here the period of Antichrist's rule.

  7. #22
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    Re: Defining Divine Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Nowhere in the Apocalypse, and nowhere in the Scriptures, is the 3.5 years of Antichristian rule equated with "God's Wrath." The time period associated with the last 3.5 years of the age are *not* called "God's Wrath."
    Agreed.

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    Here is clearly states God's wrath has come after the 7th trump sounds. Clearly God's wrath hadn't been coming for a long time before this or else the statement would be meaningless.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  8. #23
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    Re: Defining Divine Wrath

    Another reason why the bowls/vials are part of the 7th trump:



    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


    We see these same things when the last one is poured:



    Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
    Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
    Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
    Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
    Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

    The exact same things and both ending with a great hail storm:

    Rev 11 7th trump "there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail"
    Rev 16 "there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake" "a great hail out of heaven"

    Same exact things because it's the same time frame. Keep in mind Revelation is not chronological in nature. It jumps around and re-visits the same time frame like here.


    Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.


    Not to mention the plagues are last, coinciding with the last trump.



    The vials are actually poured out in the time frame of these verses.

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    Rev 11:19 *And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:


    Here is the same timing of those verses:

    Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
    Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
    Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
    Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

    Here we see the temple opened in both passages and both speaking of the wrath of God. 7th trump: and thy wrath is come Rev 15: vials full of the wrath of God. Same timeframe.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  9. #24
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    Re: Defining Divine Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Agreed.

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    Here is clearly states God's wrath has come after the 7th trump sounds. Clearly God's wrath hadn't been coming for a long time before this or else the statement would be meaningless.
    My view is that God's Wrath is generally active throughout the Age of Sin. God is tolerant, but at some point is willing to judge sin. This happens with every person and with every generation. Every nation sees God's Wrath at some time or other.

    But you're right. God's ultimate Wrath takes place at the end of the age, when God determines to bind Satan, and impose a new order on the world.

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    Re: Defining Divine Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    My view is that God's Wrath is generally active throughout the Age of Sin.
    Sure but the issue is whether God's wrath is found in the 42 months or after it and we both know that specific time of wrath comes after the GT. Naturally the GT is Satan's wrath that's shown in Rev 12 just prior to the GT starting. As far as I know, it is mainly pretrib that defines the GT as God's wrath so they can say the rapture happens before the GT starts because the church is not a target of God's wrath but definitely the bible does not place God's wrath during the time of Satan's wrath.

    But you're right. God's ultimate Wrath takes place at the end of the age, when God determines to bind Satan, and impose a new order on the world.
    And you are right that God has shown his wrath many times and still does today.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Defining Divine Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Sure but the issue is whether God's wrath is found in the 42 months or after it and we both know that specific time of wrath comes after the GT. Naturally the GT is Satan's wrath that's shown in Rev 12 just prior to the GT starting. As far as I know, it is mainly pretrib that defines the GT as God's wrath so they can say the rapture happens before the GT starts because the church is not a target of God's wrath but definitely the bible does not place God's wrath during the time of Satan's wrath.

    And you are right that God has shown his wrath many times and still does today.
    Looks like we're squarely on the same page, brother. Yes, Pretribbers define the 3.5 years of Antichrist's rule as the "Day of Wrath" so that they can argue the Church must be Raptured prior to this, avoiding God's Wrath. However, as I argue elsewhere, God's Wrath was poured out on ancient Israel, and godly prophets had to suffer through the same experience, even though they were *not* the objects of God's Wrath.

    I say this because Pretribbers argue that there are examples of God's Wrath even prior to the Last Day. For example, there are 5 months in which the Locust Plague torments people. This is a form of "God's Wrath."

    However, you are right. This is not the "final wrath" that the Bible speaks of when referencing this time period. And, quite frankly, many times "God's Wrath" is mentioned it has to do with eternal sentencing, and not just divine punishments meted out upon the earth.

    In a very real sense, the final Day of the Age is a "Day of Wrath" because Christ comes back to *sentence men.* It just happens that he returns at a time when the armies of the Antichrist are to be destroyed on earth. So this is both an earthly judgment as well as a heavenly judgment. It is a special kind of "Day of Wrath."

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