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Thread: Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time

  1. #1
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    Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time

    Came across this archive from one of the Scholars I followed and I must agree with his points, just about every Eschatological position is based on presuppositions and assumptions that must people just ignore in their position but pinpoint with laser accuracy in others .

    Still I think these articles are important to consider since for the first time I was able to get a good grasp on what others believe and why they believe it, as well as objective arguments on why their position and my own are not "self-evident" or the "only interpretation of the text".

    https://drmsh.com/page/1/?s=eschatology+a+waste+of+time

    https://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-w...f-time-part-1/

    This is part 1/15 and he never actually reveals his personal position even though he promised he will

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    Re: Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time

    This is just another quote but honestly these are issues i've debated on this thread for years, the truth is just live everyone else I have my own personal answers to each of these questions and it leads me to my current view of eschatology

    https://drmsh.com/end-times-question...n-eschatology/


    ANY view of eschatology is about the presuppositions that are brought TO the text. NONE of the views are self-evident (“I just look at my Bible and there it is–Amen!” Aaarrgghh!). How you answer the following questions dictates completely where you end up:

    1. Are Israel and the Church distinct from each other, or does the Church replace Israel in God’s program for the ages? If they are distinct, it would seem that Israel might still have a national future, apart from the church. Keeping Israel and the Church distinct is key to any view of a rapture (because the Church is taken, not Israel).

    2. Were the covenants given to Abraham and David about the Promised Land and a never-ending dynasty unconditional or conditional? If the latter, then the promises were conditioned by obedience to the Law and, since Israel went into exile, the promises were “sinned away.” They were inherited by the Church in a spiritual sense (cf. Gal 3 – Christians are “Abraham’s seed and heirs to the promises”). There will be no literal kingdom, just the Church. If the former is the case, then it didn’t matter that Israel was wicked–the Land promises are still in effect and a descendant of David MUST sit on the literal throne.

    3. Was the Land promised fulfilled under the reign of Solomon or not? If you read the description of Solomon’s kingdom and INCLUDE the areas he had under tribute, the boundaries match the description of the promised Land given to Abraham–hence the kingdom promises are already fulfilled and there is no more to be had. Israel sinned away the kingdom, though, and it was replaced by the church. But should we include the land only under tribute to Israel, but not actually inhabited by Israel? That’s the question.

    4. Is there any biblical proof that the 70th week of Daniel = the tribulation period? This is assumed by many, but the fact is that there isn’t a single verse that makes this equation. Sounds right, but is it?

    5. When it comes to passages that describe the return of Jesus, should we harmonize them, or separate them? Here’s what I mean. Say a critic of the Bible came up to you and said, “hey, your Bible is full of errors–just look at the gospels; they have differing accounts of the same event–they can’t all be right; at lest one has to be wrong!” I’m guessing your response would be something like, “they can all be right even if they disagree, just like a newspaper story–if you took all the newspaper accounts of 911, they wouldn’t all say the same thing, but they could all be right–they just complement each other — you have to join them together to get the full picture. That’s what we should do with the gospels.” Now, I agree with “joining” and I think just about every Christian would. So why is it, when we come to description of the Lord’s return, that so many people do NOT harmonize them? We take 1 Thess 4 as being different than Zech 14, because in 1 Thess 4 Jesus never touches the ground! That must be a different return–and so we have two returns-one a rapture and the other is the second coming. This decision–to NOT harmonize these accounts is at the heart of the doctrine of a rapture. You really can’t have a rapture if you harmonize, but that’s what we do everywhere else. So…are you a splitter or a joiner? Which one is right? How would we know for sure?

    6. Was the book of Revelation written before or after 70 AD? This makes all the difference in the world for holding that Revelation has yet to be fulfilled, as opposed to being fulfilled by AD 70. THere’s evidence for either conclusion. Which is right?

    7. Are we to read the book of Revelation in a linear, chronological fashion, or does the book repeat the same several events in cycles? Those who see Revelation as future prophecy assume the book is to be read straight through as a linear chronology. Others see the events of the book “recapitulating.” If it’s linear, you have a literal kingdom aside from the Church when you get to the end. If it’s not linear, you don’t. The Church = the Kingdom.

    8. All OT prophecy was fulfilled literally, so the prophecy that’s still left will be as well. Well, this assumes that all OT prophecy was fulfilled “literally” (whatever that means). But is that what how the NT authors see the OT? Do they always see an OT passage fulfilled literally? Maybe a prophecy gets a REAL fulfillment but it isn’t what you’d literally expect. For one example, read Amos 9:10-12 and ask yourself what YOU would expect to be the fulfillment (David’s house is in ruins and will be rebuilt). Then go to Acts 15 and see how James interprets this passage in Amos. Have fun.

    There are more fundamental questions, but they become more technical. I think this is enough.

    So how does everyone cheat? They make decisions on all these questions, and then act like their view is the “biblical” view–as though they didn’t have to presuppose and assume a whole list of things at the start. They cheat by not telling you that what they believe about eschatology is based on assumptions about verses, not verses themselves. The Bible didn’t come with a handbook with the “right” answers to these questions. The answers are not self-evident. There is uncertainty (to put it mildly).

    Now you know why I don’t like any of the views. ALL the views make assumptions and then erect their system on those assumptions. Passages that don’t quite fit are “problem passages” (yeah, right). Each view has its own set of those.

    Personally, I think there’s a reason for the ambiguity in the Bible on these issues, which itself is the path to not cheating. But that’s for another time. This is the tip of the iceberg, and I’m already feeling ill over eschatology.

  3. #3

    Re: Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time

    I believe the following pretty much debunks the "historicist" viewpoint (not to mention, the "preterist" viewpoint also):

    [quoting an excerpt from a post I made some time back]

    Revelation 1:1's wording "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see 7:3] things which must come to pass [<--comp.1:19c/4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" [not things which will unfold over the course of some 2000 years, nor take place "immediately [adverb]," nor "soon [adverb]"], and which 'future things' [comp.1:1/1:19c to 4:1] lead up to His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, i.e. chpts 6-19, the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" future, specific/limited time period leading up to the earthly MK age which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19).

    This ^ is the same SEQUENCE shown between Matt22:7 and 22:8 (with v.7 being about the 70ad events [comp. with Lk21:23,20 and Lk19:41-44] and THEN v.8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" necessarily taking place AFTER the 70ad events [which the LATER writings of (the 95ad) "[The] Revelation" not only qualify, but sound almost identical! (re: Rev1:1[7:3] and Matt22:8)])

    [end quoting that excerpt from my old post]


    ____________

    I find that many "positions" tend to disregard or overlook "chronology"... when I detect that in someone's writings, it's easy to see how their conclusions do not "line up," so to speak.

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    Re: Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I believe the following pretty much debunks the "historicist" viewpoint (not to mention, the "preterist" viewpoint also):

    [quoting an excerpt from a post I made some time back]

    Revelation 1:1's wording "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see 7:3] things which must come to pass [<--comp.1:19c/4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" [not things which will unfold over the course of some 2000 years, nor take place "immediately [adverb]," nor "soon [adverb]"], and which 'future things' [comp.1:1/1:19c to 4:1] lead up to His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, i.e. chpts 6-19, the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" future, specific/limited time period leading up to the earthly MK age which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19).

    This ^ is the same SEQUENCE shown between Matt22:7 and 22:8 (with v.7 being about the 70ad events [comp. with Lk21:23,20 and Lk19:41-44] and THEN v.8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" necessarily taking place AFTER the 70ad events [which the LATER writings of (the 95ad) "[The] Revelation" not only qualify, but sound almost identical! (re: Rev1:1[7:3] and Matt22:8)])

    [end quoting that excerpt from my old post]


    ____________

    I find that many "positions" tend to disregard or overlook "chronology"... when I detect that in someone's writings, it's easy to see how their conclusions do not "line up," so to speak.
    Now look at the actual Greek words in that verse....behind the word SHORTLY there are TWO NUMBERS, not one like with most words, so that tells us they don't have the translation right, right off the bat. Lets see what they both mean so we can understand what this verse really means instead of going down a rabbit hole.

    The Reuelation 602 of Iesus 2424 Christ, 5547 which 3739 God 2316 gaue 1325 z5656 vnto him, 846 to shewe 1166 z5658 vnto his y846 x848 seruants 1401 things which 3739 must 1163 z5748 shortly 1722 5034 come to passe; 1096 z5635 and 2532 he sent 649 z5660 and signified 4591 z5656 [it] by 1223 his y846 x848 Angel 32 vnto his y846 x848 seruant 1401 Iohn, 2491

    #1722 ἐν en {en}

    a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time
    or state)
    , and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or
    constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between

    #5034 τάχος tachos {takh'-os}

    from the same as G5036; TDNT - n/a; n n
    —Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

    1) quickness, speed
    —Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

    From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste:— + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.
    —Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament).

    So where do people go wrong with this translation ? Some {a few} say Jesus had to have come back long ago or something to that affect and thus everyone is wrong.

    But the verse doesn't say Jesus is coming back SHORTLY, that is just an outright error from lack of dogged study, and not a good translation.

    EN means at a FIXED POSITION [in time] so Jesus is going to return {EN} at a fixed point in time, and this is the perfect word to use, because Jesus doesn't know the hour that the Father is going to send him back in, all he knows is at SOME POINT IN TIME !! The Father is going to send him back.........At that time he will TACHOS which is where we get the English word Tachometer from, so its like a Measurement of speed.......Tachos means Quickly, Speedily, IN HASTE or Shortly as in a Short Burst Jesus will just FLASH be there, because after all Jesus is God !!

    So id doesn't mean that Jesus was supposed to return SHORTLY.......That is just not the case at all, bad turn, wrong turn, rabbit hole engaged.

    It means that at a Future point in time, that only the Father knows, Jesus will be sent back HASTILY to earth when that command is given.

  5. #5

    Re: Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time

    Well, what I said was, that the text says, "THINGS which MUST COME TO PASS [<--this part=4:1 & 1:19c] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; <--this phrase=the verses below]..."

    …and the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" phrase, I believe is PARALLEL (time-wise) with the SAME WORDING found in Romans 16:20 and Luke 18:8[/chpt-17-end CONTEXT... and the "AVENGE in quickness [NOUN]" that this verse is speaking of (note: "AVENGE" isn't taking place "in this present age [singular]"/Eph1:21, 1Tim2:12)]


    So, what I'm saying is, that it is the "THINGS" which are said "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and those 'things" are what is being spoken of in verses 4:1 and 1:19c (i.e. "the FUTURE" aspects of the Book of Rev--meaning, they "must come to pass in a relatively "quickness" amount of time; that is, the 7-yr period/70th-Wk of Daniel/2520 days total, FROM one specific point in time TO another specific point in time)

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    Re: Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    This is just another quote but honestly these are issues i've debated on this thread for years, the truth is just live everyone else I have my own personal answers to each of these questions and it leads me to my current view of eschatology

    https://drmsh.com/end-times-question...n-eschatology/


    ANY view of eschatology is about the presuppositions that are brought TO the text. NONE of the views are self-evident (“I just look at my Bible and there it is–Amen!” Aaarrgghh!). How you answer the following questions dictates completely where you end up:

    1. Are Israel and the Church distinct from each other, or does the Church replace Israel in God’s program for the ages? If they are distinct, it would seem that Israel might still have a national future, apart from the church. Keeping Israel and the Church distinct is key to any view of a rapture (because the Church is taken, not Israel).
    Above the Numbered questions you assume that which is not correct. There are indeed answers to all of God's Prophetic utterances, the problem is we have way to many people not called to Prophecy trying to interpret Prophecy. I was called 30 years ago via that I can get into later if needed, lets just say I was told verbally in a vision in 1986 that "The Man of Sin was here" and that was all I got as I was running with two kids. But as a young Christ God no doubt knew I would ignore that one instance, so He AFFIRMED the former by showing me Jimmy Swaggart in this HUGE Auditorium and there was only like 10 people there, including me, and within One or two weeks he had fallen from Grace. So I knew his ministry was being taken away before it happened, then I was like, opps, the Man of Sin is indeed here. That's neither here nor there, God has His ways of getting our attention, do we follow through ? Or do we get off track ?

    So after about 25 years of preaching/teaching, studying Prophecy etc. etc. I asked God why was I stuck in a 25 year rut where I couldn't seem to get the last bits of Prophecy that I knew God was holding back on until the end times like He told Daniel, I asked God why there were 100 different understandings about what/who Babylon is, who the Harlot is etc. etc. etc. and I git this answer, "Ron, its because YOU GUYS already know everything !!"

    That is when it hit me, as young Christians we of course all defer to others on Prophecy because its so hard to understand, so by the time we get a little older, we are like the Pharisees were in their understandings of the Old Testament, we have ingrained MEN'S TRADITIONS galore in our hearts that we swear by. Men taught us all these things, and all God ever wanted us to do was say "What does this mean God" just like we did with the Gospels !! LOL. After I realized this I put off all my learned understandings, I started with the Pre Trib or Post Trib Rapture, I alwayys thought it was Pre trib but just never thought it mattered that much, boy does it ever matter !! I read and asked God who showed me in Rev. 19 that the Church is IN HEAVEN whilst the Beast is still on earth before we come back with Jesus on White Horses {which just means as Conquerors}. So there could be no Post Trib, on;y a Pre or Mid Trib and I later understood it could only be Pre Trib. And I always just ask God tom how me now and He has, I understand the Chronology perfectly, I see everything I used to couldn't see because I remembered the KEY to revelation is asking God for that Revelation, and we can't do that id we ALREADY KNOW IT ALL !! Amen.

    Israel and the Church are two different Entities BUT both must come unto God by FAITH ALONE, so in that they are one and the same. Abraham was counted Righteous because he BELIEVED God, the Jews were cut off because of UNBELIEF {Grafted out}. We come to Jesus by FAITH ALONE {were Grafted in}. After the Rapture the Gentiles who TARRIED or are like the 5 foolish virgins might be shut out of the wedding, but they can still come to Christ BY FAITH ALONE, however, more than likely they will become Martyrs, the ones under the Altar in the 5th Seal. The Jews who Repent like Malachi 4:5-6 says as does Zechariah 13:8-9, do so by FAITH ALONE. Jesus doesn't come back until at least 1260 days later, because God protects them in Petra for 1260 days.

    So no one comes unto God on EITHER side of the Cross and on either side of the Rapture except by FAITH ALONE !! That is why there is NO DIFFERENCE in the Jew and the Greek. We must all come unto God by FAITH, it doesn't mean the Church and Israel are ONE, thats just not the case. Israel are THE WHEAT they grow on earth with the Wicked Tares until the very end, see Rev. 14 the Harvest chapter. The Jews {144,000 is a Metaphor for ALL Israel} are saved by Jesus, the Wicked are killed by Jesus and bound up to be burned in 1000 years at the Second Death, whilst the Church, in sorta a soliloquy was Raptured home in verse 14. {which was before either of these other two that being shown.}

    2. Were the covenants given to Abraham and David about the Promised Land and a never-ending dynasty unconditional or conditional? If the latter, then the promises were conditioned by obedience to the Law and, since Israel went into exile, the promises were “sinned away.” They were inherited by the Church in a spiritual sense (cf. Gal 3 – Christians are “Abraham’s seed and heirs to the promises”). There will be no literal kingdom, just the Church. If the former is the case, then it didn’t matter that Israel was wicked–the Land promises are still in effect and a descendant of David MUST sit on the literal throne.
    The Covenant {AGREEMENT} was between God and Abraham/Israel, it was about a PROMISED COMING SEED however. {Jesus} So the Promises were to all who BELIEVE on either side of the Cross !! You can have Faith in the coming SEED before he even comes, you can DOUBT after he comes, we are made whole via FAITH in God's Righteousness, which is shown in Jesus Christ. Amen.

    3. Was the Land promised fulfilled under the reign of Solomon or not? If you read the description of Solomon’s kingdom and INCLUDE the areas he had under tribute, the boundaries match the description of the promised Land given to Abraham–hence the kingdom promises are already fulfilled and there is no more to be had. Israel sinned away the kingdom, though, and it was replaced by the church. But should we include the land only under tribute to Israel, but not actually inhabited by Israel? That’s the question.
    The actual promise was from the Tigres River all they way to Egypt. Jesus is going to rule all the earth, if it hasn't been fulfilled it will be during the 1000 year reign.

    4. Is there any biblical proof that the 70th week of Daniel = the tribulation period? This is assumed by many, but the fact is that there isn’t a single verse that makes this equation. Sounds right, but is it?
    Of course, God's Holy Word says Israel must repent before the 70th week Prophecy can be fulfilled, and Israel has not yet repented. The Church age was inserted, take out the Church Age and the Beasts all fit perfectly together, the Stature fits perfectly together. The Gates pf hell could not prevail against the Church, thus we delivered the MORTAL WOUND to the Beast of Rome, who we turned from a Beast into a conveyor belt of the Gospel !! Amen.

    5. When it comes to passages that describe the return of Jesus, should we harmonize them, or separate them? Here’s what I mean. Say a critic of the Bible came up to you and said, “hey, your Bible is full of errors–just look at the gospels; they have differing accounts of the same event–they can’t all be right; at lest one has to be wrong!” I’m guessing your response would be something like, “they can all be right even if they disagree, just like a newspaper story–if you took all the newspaper accounts of 911, they wouldn’t all say the same thing, but they could all be right–they just complement each other — you have to join them together to get the full picture. That’s what we should do with the gospels.” Now, I agree with “joining” and I think just about every Christian would. So why is it, when we come to description of the Lord’s return, that so many people do NOT harmonize them? We take 1 Thess 4 as being different than Zech 14, because in 1 Thess 4 Jesus never touches the ground! That must be a different return–and so we have two returns-one a rapture and the other is the second coming. This decision–to NOT harmonize these accounts is at the heart of the doctrine of a rapture. You really can’t have a rapture if you harmonize, but that’s what we do everywhere else. So…are you a splitter or a joiner? Which one is right? How would we know for sure?
    1 Thess 4 is the rapture, not the Second Coming. Zechariah 14:1-2 is the Anti-Christ CONQUERING Jerusalem, verses 3 and 4 is Jesus DEFEATING the A.C.

    6. Was the book of Revelation written before or after 70 AD? This makes all the difference in the world for holding that Revelation has yet to be fulfilled, as opposed to being fulfilled by AD 70. THere’s evidence for either conclusion. Which is right?
    I don't think it matters, but John is said to have written it while he was on Patmos, and that was in 90ish AD.

    7. Are we to read the book of Revelation in a linear, chronological fashion, or does the book repeat the same several events in cycles? Those who see Revelation as future prophecy assume the book is to be read straight through as a linear chronology. Others see the events of the book “recapitulating.” If it’s linear, you have a literal kingdom aside from the Church when you get to the end. If it’s not linear, you don’t. The Church = the Kingdom.
    1.) Jesus is shown in all his Glory {Write the things which you have SEEN}

    2.) Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age. {Write the things which ARE}

    3.) Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture {Write the things which will be HEREAFTER}

    4.) Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened. They have the very gifts the Churches were promised. Thrones, Gold Crowns etc. etc. 24 Elders are the same as the 24 Priesthoods in the Old Testament also.

    5.) Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9, 15&16 is the Chronological Order to the book of Revelation as per Satan losing his reign on earth in chapter 16. The Seals, Trumpets and Vials are in order.

    6.) Rev. 10 is a Flash forward to the end, its a Mysterious chapter that I know the least about, the others I have pretty much figured out.

    7. Rev. 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and even 19 are Parenthetical Citation Chapters, in that all the events that happen therein happen during the chapters IN RED ABOVE, these are not real time events per se. Most start in Rev. ch. 6 at the First Seal, except for ch. 11 which starts 75 days before the First Seal. Rev. 14 and 19 are both at least 7 Year Periods also.

    Rev. 20 is the Judgment Seat, Rev. 21 and 22 is the Ever After and the New Jerusalem.

    Going back to fill in the blanks now, Rev. 11 is the Two-witnesses Chapter. It starts 75 days before the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast we know that via Malachi 4:5-6 which says God will send Elijah back BEFORE that Day of the Lord {First Seal opening}to turn Israel back unto God. The 1335 is the Two-witnesses Blessing, the 1290 is the False Prophet placing the AoD in the temple 30 days BEFORE the 1260 Conquering of the Jews by the A.C. who this only becomes THE BEAST when he Conquers Jerusalem at the 1260 event, all of the numbers are a set set of numbers and how far each event/numbers is away from the Second Coming of Jesus which will END ALL THESE WINDERS {Dan 12}. The reason we see the 7th Trump here is because the 7th Trump is the 3rd and last Woe which is the 7 Vials of Gods Wrath, Rev. 8:13 tells us this, the last three trumps to sound ARE the last three Woes !! BOOM. So God just shows us how Babylon will fall via the Last Woe which the Two-witnesses prayed down before they died. The LAST WOE is actually shown in Rev. ch. 16. Thus indeed Babylon Falls ONE TIME, Babylon is Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth. The two-witnesses show up 75 days before the AC becomes the Beast and this JIBES because they die at the 6th Trump while the Beast dies at the 7th Vial {75 days later} thus both can have EARTHLY OFFICES of 1260 days !! So Rev. 11 starts 75 days before the First Seal is opened and runs all the way until Jesus returns, even though we are just given a vague snapshot of the very end, to show us the VICTORY the Two-witnesses prayed down. Amen !!

    Rev. 12 is just Israel Fleeing from the Dragon.Anti-Christ for 1260 days, thus it starts at the First Seal in Rev. ch. 6.

    Rev. 13 is the Beast ARISING out of the Sea, thus this chapter also starts at the First Seal, in ch. 6.

    Rev. 14 is the Harvest Chapter, I think I have already explained this above, this covers the full 7 years.

    Rev. 17 is the Harlot or ALL FALSE RELIGION of ALL TIME being Judged and destroyed by God here. Islam and all False Religions will be wiped out. God will wipe out the Beast.

    Rev. 18 is Babylon {WHOLE WORLD} being hit with the Seal, Trump and Vial Judgments, this is why the Merchants are crying, it will destroy the economies of the world. When God says come out of her He is speaking unto Israel who must flee unto Petra. When God says she has become a Habitation of Devils, that means Satan was cast down at the 6th Seal and Apollyon was released at the 1st Woe ! God says your judgment is come in ONE DAY {Day of the Lord lasts 3.5 years} God also says your Judgment will come in ONE HOUR and we know that in Rev. 17:12 the Kings rule ONE HOUR with the Beast {42 Months} so these Judgments will pelt this Wicked World for 42 Months,from the First Seal in Rev. ch. 6 to the 7th Vial in Rev. 16:19 where God SPECIFICALLY CALLS the Nations he defeats Babylon the Great, and we can see who they are in the 6th Via, they are enticed by the THREE FROG Demons into battle against God, they are said to be the Kings of the WHOLE WORLD !! So Babylon = the Whole World !! Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth will be SMASHED by the Rock Jesus Amen !!

    Rev. 19 covers the full 7 years also, it is the Church in Heaven, Marrying the Lamb, then returning with Christ to defeat the Beast and all his minions ON EARTH.

    So everything fits brother, we just have to ask God to show us, and He will.

    8. All OT prophecy was fulfilled literally, so the prophecy that’s still left will be as well. Well, this assumes that all OT prophecy was fulfilled “literally” (whatever that means). But is that what how the NT authors see the OT? Do they always see an OT passage fulfilled literally? Maybe a prophecy gets a REAL fulfillment but it isn’t what you’d literally expect. For one example, read Amos 9:10-12 and ask yourself what YOU would expect to be the fulfillment (David’s house is in ruins and will be rebuilt). Then go to Acts 15 and see how James interprets this passage in Amos. Have fun.
    All prophecy will be fulfilled because God can't lie.


    Now you know why I don’t like any of the views. ALL the views make assumptions and then erect their system on those assumptions. Passages that don’t quite fit are “problem passages” (yeah, right). Each view has its own set of those.
    When one comes to a road with 12 turns we must ask God to show us the way, us trying to figure it out or throwing our hands up in frustration avails nothing.

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    Re: Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Well, what I said was, that the text says, "THINGS which MUST COME TO PASS [<--this part=4:1 & 1:19c] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; <--this phrase=the verses below]..."

    …and the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" phrase, I believe is PARALLEL (time-wise) with the SAME WORDING found in Romans 16:20 and Luke 18:8[/chpt-17-end CONTEXT... and the "AVENGE in quickness [NOUN]" that this verse is speaking of (note: "AVENGE" isn't taking place "in this present age [singular]"/Eph1:21, 1Tim2:12)]


    So, what I'm saying is, that it is the "THINGS" which are said "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and those 'things" are what is being spoken of in verses 4:1 and 1:19c (i.e. "the FUTURE" aspects of the Book of Rev--meaning, they "must come to pass in a relatively "quickness" amount of time; that is, the 7-yr period/70th-Wk of Daniel/2520 days total, FROM one specific point in time TO another specific point in time)
    Yea, I thought you and I were close on these issues, but you can't ever tell now-a-days, It did have me scratching my head as it was kinda not pointing in either direction clearly for me, I kind of figured I just wasn't catching your drift fully. But since the OP was kind of wondering, it seemed about these issues, I just let it fly. It explains as best I can why the book of Revelation has not come to pass.

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    Re: Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Came across this archive from one of the Scholars I followed and I must agree with his points, just about every Eschatological position is based on presuppositions and assumptions that must people just ignore in their position but pinpoint with laser accuracy in others .

    Still I think these articles are important to consider since for the first time I was able to get a good grasp on what others believe and why they believe it, as well as objective arguments on why their position and my own are not "self-evident" or the "only interpretation of the text".

    https://drmsh.com/page/1/?s=eschatology+a+waste+of+time

    https://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-w...f-time-part-1/

    This is part 1/15 and he never actually reveals his personal position even though he promised he will
    I must say that I am really enjoying Dr. Heiser's website. He gives you plenty to think about in just the small amount that I have read so far. I will check back when I have read more.

    Blessings
    Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

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    Re: Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    This is just another quote but honestly these are issues i've debated on this thread for years, the truth is just live everyone else I have my own personal answers to each of these questions and it leads me to my current view of eschatology

    https://drmsh.com/end-times-question...n-eschatology/


    ANY view of eschatology is about the presuppositions that are brought TO the text. NONE of the views are self-evident (“I just look at my Bible and there it is–Amen!” Aaarrgghh!). How you answer the following questions dictates completely where you end up:

    1. Are Israel and the Church distinct from each other, or does the Church replace Israel in God’s program for the ages? If they are distinct, it would seem that Israel might still have a national future, apart from the church. Keeping Israel and the Church distinct is key to any view of a rapture (because the Church is taken, not Israel).
    Israel being the Church is the biggest assumption ever assumed. The question is, what Church is taken? According to Scripture this is the Church of God that Paul founded consisting of Jew and gentile, read Paul's first letters and what does he say? First to the Jew, then to the Greek (gentile). While Paul wrote those letters, Israel was still in the Land, the Temple was still there with its service, this all changed radically in 70 AD. Israel went Lo-Ammi again for the last and longest time.

    2. Were the covenants given to Abraham and David about the Promised Land and a never-ending dynasty unconditional or conditional? If the latter, then the promises were conditioned by obedience to the Law and, since Israel went into exile, the promises were “sinned away.” They were inherited by the Church in a spiritual sense (cf. Gal 3 – Christians are “Abraham’s seed and heirs to the promises”). There will be no literal kingdom, just the Church. If the former is the case, then it didn’t matter that Israel was wicked–the Land promises are still in effect and a descendant of David MUST sit on the literal throne.
    The covenant of promises (Gen. 12:2, 3) made with Abraham are unconditional because the Lord who cannot lie says "And I make thee become a great nation ...", so it is not about what any human involved would do, but the Lord will do it. So the apostasy of the Law - no matter how bad that is - is not a condition for the erection or none erection of the Kingdom, it is the cause for the for 2000 years and ongoing Lo-Ammi of Israel. The second biggest assumption is that the Church has become "spiritual Israel" and the third there is only one church. Abraham was promised things before he was circumcised, thus as a gentile. In Gen. 17 we see the literal covenant of circumcision made with Abraham and the promise of the whole land of Canaan. In Gen. 15 something completely different is promised, a seed as the stars of Heaven. The Hebrew actually says in v. 5 "Like this shall thy seed be", which the Lord Jesus confirms when he says in Luke 20:34 - 35 "... for they are equal unto the angels; and are the sons of God, being the sons of the resurrection", therefore as the stars of heaven already promised to Abraham.

    3. Was the Land promised fulfilled under the reign of Solomon or not? If you read the description of Solomon’s kingdom and INCLUDE the areas he had under tribute, the boundaries match the description of the promised Land given to Abraham–hence the kingdom promises are already fulfilled and there is no more to be had. Israel sinned away the kingdom, though, and it was replaced by the church. But should we include the land only under tribute to Israel, but not actually inhabited by Israel? That’s the question.
    No it was not, also here the faulty translation is to blame. In Hebrew there are two words for "river", both translated by "river", but not consistently. Gen. 15 says "... I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates". Solomon with the whole of Israel had a feast from the entrance of Hamath (in North Syria) unto the river of Egypt, 1 Kings 8:65. But are these the same? In 1 Kings the word for river is "Nachal". It is translated by valley in Num. 21:12: valley of Zared. Deu. 2:24: river Arnon. Deu. 2:37: river Jabbok. Judges 4:7: river Kishon; on other place by valley for example Gen. 26:17: valley of Gerar, 1 Sam. 15:5 valley. Or brook in Num. 13:24: brook Eshcol. In Gen. 15 the word used is "Nahar". Nachal-Mitsraim is not Nahar-Mitsraim. In 1 Kings the little stream the Nihor is meant which is before Egypt, not in Egypt Joshua 13:3. That stream of Egypt lies in Gaza, Joshua 15:47. So Solomon never had the whole land of Canaan which has the Nile as its border.

    4. Is there any biblical proof that the 70th week of Daniel = the tribulation period? This is assumed by many, but the fact is that there isn’t a single verse that makes this equation. Sounds right, but is it?
    This is probably the most difficult to swallow for the gentile Church. Jer. 30:7 says it is Jacob's trouble, not the Church's trouble "Alas! for that day is great (the Day of the Lord), so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it", so also Dan. 12:1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book". In the time of the tribulation, the gentile Church is practically none existent, because all wonder behind the beast Rev. 13:4. So it will be there but small like in the period Paul wrote his letters to the Church of God, which mostly consists of Jews, "first to the Jew and also to the Greek" Rom. 1:16.

    5. When it comes to passages that describe the return of Jesus, should we harmonize them, or separate them? Here’s what I mean. Say a critic of the Bible came up to you and said, “hey, your Bible is full of errors–just look at the gospels; they have differing accounts of the same event–they can’t all be right; at lest one has to be wrong!” I’m guessing your response would be something like, “they can all be right even if they disagree, just like a newspaper story–if you took all the newspaper accounts of 911, they wouldn’t all say the same thing, but they could all be right–they just complement each other — you have to join them together to get the full picture. That’s what we should do with the gospels.” Now, I agree with “joining” and I think just about every Christian would. So why is it, when we come to description of the Lord’s return, that so many people do NOT harmonize them? We take 1 Thess 4 as being different than Zech 14, because in 1 Thess 4 Jesus never touches the ground! That must be a different return–and so we have two returns-one a rapture and the other is the second coming. This decision–to NOT harmonize these accounts is at the heart of the doctrine of a rapture. You really can’t have a rapture if you harmonize, but that’s what we do everywhere else. So…are you a splitter or a joiner? Which one is right? How would we know for sure?
    The differences in the 4 Gospels are because our Lord Jezus is presented in four different ways. In Mathew as Jehovah's King, "Behold thy King" Zec. 9:9. In Mark as Jehovah's servant, "Behold My Servant" Isa. 42:1. In Luke as Jehovah's Man, "Behold the Man who's name is The Branch", Zec. 6:12 and in John as Jehovah Himself, "Behold your God", Isa. 40:9. That's why the Gospels are not carbon copies and we should take notice of the differences.

    Because we do not believe Scripture as it is given to us. Paul says in 1 Thes. 4:15 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord ...", the only word of the Lord in the days of Paul was the O.T.. So Paul isn't teaching anything that goes beyond the O.T. revelation in his first seven (including Hebrews) letters. In his later letters he does, and says so when he talks about the dispensation of the mystery hid in God. This is clear from Eph. 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world (Greek aions) hath been hid in God ...".

    There is only one second coming of the Lord, which is mentioned in different places in Scripture, that second coming does have different stages. That's why we read things like:

    "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth (land same word in Greek) mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Mat. 24:30. "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" Mat. 25:31. " ... Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all ... " Jude 14, 15. There is only one coming of the Lord, Paul says in 1 Cor. 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" and in 2 Thes. 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him". Again Israel and the Church of God are distinct, Israel is on the earth and see the Son of Man coming in the clouds, the Church of God is changed in the blink of an eye and go to meet him in the air to return with Him to earth.

    6. Was the book of Revelation written before or after 70 AD? This makes all the difference in the world for holding that Revelation has yet to be fulfilled, as opposed to being fulfilled by AD 70. THere’s evidence for either conclusion. Which is right?
    This is another hot item your touching, Revelation is for Israel only, you will only find promises made to the earth, more on that later. Revelation BTW is a follow up or complementary of Daniel which was written to Israel see Dan. 9, the "thy people" is Daniel's people thus Israel. As an anecdote, Luther kept this book "neither for apostolic nor prophetic", Calvin did not write a comment on it, and Zwingli said "From The Revelation we do not take any information, for it is not a Biblical book". Since the Church are receiving heavenly promises - some disagree with this - Revelation cannot be about them. The Revelation is the prophesy about the Day of the Lord concerning Israel. V. 1:3 says "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy ..." V. 1:4 says "John to the seven churches which are in Asia ...", so not Europe nor the US.

    The Revelation is at least in part elaboration of the O.T. Day of the Lord. Rev. 1:10 says "I was in the spirit in (not on) the day of the Lord". Paul says of that day in 2 Thes. 2:2, 3 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord (not Christ) is present. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there comes apostasy first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". In Scripture the word "apostasy" is only used for abandoning the Law of Moses.

    Now about the earthly calling of Revelation and I'm using and will quote an unconsecrated scolar, E.W. Bullinger's work The Apocalyps:

    Israel was promised the land and Professor Godet says in his studies of the New Testament "the Apocalypse bears, from one end of it to the other, the character of a Hebrew prophecy". However the language of the book may be Greek, the thoughts and idioms are Hebrew.

    All the imagery - the Temple, the Tabernacle, the Ark of the Covenant, the Altar, the Incense, the heads of the twenty-four courses of Priests (the pattern of which David's was a copy, I Chron. 28:19, see I Chron. 25., and compare Heb. 9:23, etc), all this belongs peculiarly to Israel.

    But it is when we come to look at the literary connection between the Old Testament and the Apocalypse that we find evidences of the most striking kind. If we count up the number of Old Testament passages quoted or alluded to in the New Testament, we find that the gospel of Matthew has a very large number, amounting in all to 92. The Epistle to the Hebrews comes higher still with 102. Now both these boos are connected in a special manner with Israel. Matthew, it is universally admitted, stands out among the four Gospels as being specially Jewish in its character. And the Epistle to the Hebrews was specially written to Hebrews, and they are addressed as such.

    Now, when we turn to the Apocalypse, what do we find? The result which to our mind is overwhelming. No less than 285 references to the Old Testament. More than three times as many as Matthew, and nearly three times as many as the Epistle to the Hebrews.

    Israel was promised the Kingdom, see the agreement between Mathew and Revelation:

    Mat._____Rev.
    24:4, 5___6;1, 2___1st seal False christs and false prophets
    24:6, 7___6:3, 4___2nd seal War.
    24:7_____6:5, 6___3rd seal Famine.
    24:7_____6:7, 8___4th seal Pestilence.
    24:8-10__6:9-11___5th seal Persecution.
    24:29____6:12-17__6th seal Heaven signs. Fear.

    Nowhere in Mathew is something other promised then the Kingdom already foretold in the O.T., see for example 1 Sam. 8:7 "... that I (Jehovah) should not reign over them" and Exo. 19:6, so He wanted to reign over them. "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel" and Daniel 2:44 "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever"

    In The Revelation those addressed to are called "servants", Greek slaves. Of those whom Paul writes to it is said they are no longer servants, but sons, Gal. 4:7. Israel is called servants in the O.T., Lev. 25:42.

    They are promised to eat of the tree of life, that is in the paradise (Israel in the new age) of God, in Rev. 22 we see the tree of life on the new earth. Angels or those resurrected do not need a tree of life because they can't die anymore.

    The expression "he that has ears to hear" only occurs in the Gospels outside of Revelation. And 6 times: Mat. 11:15; 13:9, 43 Mark 4:23; 7:16; Luke 14:35. These concern Israel.

    7. Are we to read the book of Revelation in a linear, chronological fashion, or does the book repeat the same several events in cycles? Those who see Revelation as future prophecy assume the book is to be read straight through as a linear chronology. Others see the events of the book “recapitulating.” If it’s linear, you have a literal kingdom aside from the Church when you get to the end. If it’s not linear, you don’t. The Church = the Kingdom.
    Of the two choices you present above, linear is closer to the truth, the Church is most certainly not the Kingdom, Israel is.

    8. All OT prophecy was fulfilled literally, so the prophecy that’s still left will be as well. Well, this assumes that all OT prophecy was fulfilled “literally” (whatever that means). But is that what how the NT authors see the OT? Do they always see an OT passage fulfilled literally? Maybe a prophecy gets a REAL fulfillment but it isn’t what you’d literally expect. For one example, read Amos 9:10-12 and ask yourself what YOU would expect to be the fulfillment (David’s house is in ruins and will be rebuilt). Then go to Acts 15 and see how James interprets this passage in Amos. Have fun.
    All O.T. prophecy that isn't fulfilled yet will be fulfilled literally and to Israel, not to any other group of people. Jacob's trouble will be Israels trouble, where Scripture says Israel, it is Israel.

    About Amos 9 and Acts 15, that this word is not fulfilled upon the return from Babel, proves Acts 15. James speaks of this part of Amos and says in v. 14 — 17: "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a nation for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets". Now James points to one of the Prophets and says: "After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."

    James quotes here approximately the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the O.T.. That was not a literal translation of the Hebrew, but a freely commented (i.e. explanatory) translation. Yet Acts 15 is no pure quotation. James replaces: "On that day" by "after this" and leaves some parts away. So it turns out that James sees the fulfillment of Amos' prophecy in the future. The "in that day" refers to the time in which Israel will pass under judgment.

    That starts in the day of the Lord and continues in the future age. Then David's tabernacle will be re-established and the breaches will be restored. That restoration, the restoration of the things spoken of by the prophets, takes place when the Lord has returned. Before this has taken place, the mentioned things do not occur.

    What are they? This, that God takes a nation from the Gentiles for His name. That nation of the Gentiles are Israel's believing remnant, the nation of the property, that maintains God and that He assumes during the period of Acts and also in the future day of Israel's invocation and tribulation when it is shaken among all the Gentiles for His name. They are the « stones » that have not fallen to earth, the retaining grain.

    There are more fundamental questions, but they become more technical. I think this is enough.

    So how does everyone cheat? They make decisions on all these questions, and then act like their view is the “biblical” view–as though they didn’t have to presuppose and assume a whole list of things at the start. They cheat by not telling you that what they believe about eschatology is based on assumptions about verses, not verses themselves. The Bible didn’t come with a handbook with the “right” answers to these questions. The answers are not self-evident. There is uncertainty (to put it mildly).

    Now you know why I don’t like any of the views. ALL the views make assumptions and then erect their system on those assumptions. Passages that don’t quite fit are “problem passages” (yeah, right). Each view has its own set of those.

    Personally, I think there’s a reason for the ambiguity in the Bible on these issues, which itself is the path to not cheating. But that’s for another time. This is the tip of the iceberg, and I’m already feeling ill over eschatology.
    I hope I did not make you more ill.
    "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
    a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
    rightly dividing the word of truth."
    2 Tim. 2:15


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    Re: Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Adonijah View Post
    I hope I did not make you more ill.
    That whole portion was a quote to frame Heisers position, including the part about being "ill" if you follow him at all he is notorious for hating to speak about eschatology. Personally I enjoy it =)

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    Re: Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time

    I just want to say again his position is not that "Eschatology" is a waste of time just that an "Obsession with Eschatology" is. I think his overall point is that if the answer was simple or self-evident everyone would agree or at least a majority, overall there are logical and valid reasons why others have a difference in opinion and obsessing over it is not helpful.

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    Re: Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time

    @ Eschatology hindering God's kingdom.
    No ! ...there is evidence in our bibles that if God cannot find a man with the will or ability to correct another man, then God will immediately enable a donkey(an ass) with the ability to correct that man.

    About ten to fifteen years ago, I felt the same way about eschatology.
    Actually, I pretty much felt the same way about bible scholars in general, as to how unprofitable of a pursuit it is for a christian.
    But, over time Jesus slowly and 'very' mercifully showed me personally where I was in error there.

    So, I'm going to share the gist of what He showed me to correct my previous views on the intense devotion of some men to pursue human-understanding of God's 'ways' (Theology).

    First, eschatology is not profitless toward the building up of our fellows inside of Jesus's kingdom.
    Although eschatology can be divisive, most if not all of those possible divisions do not trespass into salvation/gospel breaking divisions.
    The consuming devotion of scholarly pursuits into Theology (including eschatological studies) have been used by God's Holy Spirit to reveal Himself to a horde of different cultures and Nations of people who otherwise would have been left to their own current meager abilities to know God as God present's Himself, rather than just knowing God according to how men have presented Him to them.
    ie: There is safety/security in the presence of many wise counsel(s) Proverbs 11:14

    Our human abilities whether they are financial or social-cast limitation and or physical and cognitive abilities, those abilities (or disabilities) are imposed upon the majority of us individually, which affects our ability to understand scripture whether be by reading it or hearing it to understand it.
    What man's scholarly pursuits into Theology (including eschatological studies) "profits" is it almost completely nullifies the affects of those our abilities and or our lack of any of those abilities.
    Those scholarly pursuits of some men help to maintain Jesus's body as a body, rather than just individual members of a body doing their own thing according to their individual limited
    abilities.

    Second, in response to our personal reluctance to giving the total devotion of our strength and mind to what we have chosen to do:
    Well we can not all have prophetic ability, nor all have teaching ability, nor all have ______ <--- fill in the blank ability 1 Corinthians 12:29
    ....And also we are charged by even Earthy wisdom found in our bibles to do what ever our hand finds to do, to do it with all of our strength and minds Ecclesiastes 9:10

    So yeah, that is the gist of why I no longer give heed to my flesh's resentment toward the persistent (even zealousness) of biblical scholars, no matter their particular cove of specialty ie: Eschatology.
    In the end, they all will have lifted Christ to every Nation and every culture on the Earth.
    ....In my new/corrected view of the pursuits of biblical scholars: all biblical scholars are teachers, good teachers at that !
    But, teachers are still growing/learning, just like all of the rest of us are.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
    Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

  13. #13

    Re: Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
    @ Eschatology hindering God's kingdom.
    No ! ...there is evidence in our bibles that if God cannot find a man with the will or ability to correct another man, then God will immediately enable a donkey(an ass) with the ability to correct that man.

    About ten to fifteen years ago, I felt the same way about eschatology.
    Actually, I pretty much felt the same way about bible scholars in general, as to how unprofitable of a pursuit it is for a christian.
    But, over time Jesus slowly and 'very' mercifully showed me personally where I was in error there.

    So, I'm going to share the gist of what He showed me to correct my previous views on the intense devotion of some men to pursue human-understanding of God's 'ways' (Theology).

    First, eschatology is not profitless toward the building up of our fellows inside of Jesus's kingdom.
    Although eschatology can be divisive, most if not all of those possible divisions do not trespass into salvation/gospel breaking divisions.
    The consuming devotion of scholarly pursuits into Theology (including eschatological studies) have been used by God's Holy Spirit to reveal Himself to a horde of different cultures and Nations of people who otherwise would have been left to their own current meager abilities to know God as God present's Himself, rather than just knowing God according to how men have presented Him to them.
    ie: There is safety/security in the presence of many wise counsel(s) Proverbs 11:14

    Our human abilities whether they are financial or social-cast limitation and or physical and cognitive abilities, those abilities (or disabilities) are imposed upon the majority of us individually, which affects our ability to understand scripture whether be by reading it or hearing it to understand it.
    What man's scholarly pursuits into Theology (including eschatological studies) "profits" is it almost completely nullifies the affects of those our abilities and or our lack of any of those abilities.
    Those scholarly pursuits of some men help to maintain Jesus's body as a body, rather than just individual members of a body doing their own thing according to their individual limited
    abilities.

    Second, in response to our personal reluctance to giving the total devotion of our strength and mind to what we have chosen to do:
    Well we can not all have prophetic ability, nor all have teaching ability, nor all have ______ <--- fill in the blank ability 1 Corinthians 12:29
    ....And also we are charged by even Earthy wisdom found in our bibles to do what ever our hand finds to do, to do it with all of our strength and minds Ecclesiastes 9:10

    So yeah, that is the gist of why I no longer give heed to my flesh's resentment toward the persistent (even zealousness) of biblical scholars, no matter their particular cove of specialty ie: Eschatology.
    In the end, they all will have lifted Christ to every Nation and every culture on the Earth.
    ....In my new/corrected view of the pursuits of biblical scholars: all biblical scholars are teachers, good teachers at that !
    But, teachers are still growing/learning, just like all of the rest of us are.
    You know Jacob's Ladder,
    Jesus wasn't what some 1st century scholars were expecting the Messiah to be. Also, Jesus warned us about false Messiah's that would come and misunderstanding the scriptures about what the true Messiah does, will keep many from salvation.

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    Re: Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I just want to say again his position is not that "Eschatology" is a waste of time just that an "Obsession with Eschatology" is.
    I think a good way to tell the difference is if you're more interested in solving riddles than growing in the Spirit. I stopped caring so much about eschatology when I realized most of it has no real bearing on my life at all.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    You know Jacob's Ladder,
    Jesus wasn't what some 1st century scholars were expecting the Messiah to be. Also, Jesus warned us about false Messiah's that would come and misunderstanding the scriptures about what the true Messiah does, will keep many from salvation.
    Well journeyman, the bible and I both say:
    If God wants ya, He's gonna get ya, nothing in heaven nor on Earth can stop Him from getting what He wants.

    But hey, I wont try further to stop you from thinking contrary to His ability to do that.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
    Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

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