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Thread: Is Anything Impossible For Those Who Believe?

  1. #1
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    Is Anything Impossible For Those Who Believe?

    Recently Toolman and I were having a discussion on divine health, and Toolman made some very true observations about the three parts of man that are to be perfected. The spirit is justified by faith and made perfect, the soul is sanctified daily, and the body is to be glorified when resurrected. Toolman was basically using this biblical truth as evidence that the body will get sick regardless of our faith because it is cursed to die. He was basically stating, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, that since man is in a fallen world and this body is cursed to die then it will get sick regardless of our faith.

    I was having this conversation with another individual who also walks in divine health and he brought up an interesting point regarding death. Toolman basically stated that death is the reason this body cannot walk in divine health because it is natural for the body to decay and die due to sickness, disease and the like. While all that sounds reasonable enough judging by our natural surroundings, this individual I was speaking with brought up an interesting point that I hadn't thought about before when Toolman and I were discussing it. I had read this passage of Scripture repeatedly in the past, but I had never really given this much thought. However, to get to the point, it would seem that by this Scripture that even our physical death could be overcome through faith.

    Hebrews 11:5-6
    By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
    Now this is pretty impressive, IMO. Apparently, due to Enoch's faith, he was taken by God without ever seeing his physical death. Now I realize that this is extremely rare considering Enoch and Elijah are the only two throughout Scripture that were taken before death. And I also understand that it is generally understood that it is appointed unto man once to die. However, Enoch shows that by faith it is possible nonetheless. This got me to thinking, however. I'm wondering if this will ever happen again.

    Also, this says even more to me about when Jesus stated the following . . .

    Matthew 17:20
    So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
    Mark 9:23
    Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
    Now, I'm sure many view this as radical. However, a radical faith seems to get some very extraordinary things brought to reality.

  2. #2
    With Enoch and Elijah not having a physical death "yet" tends to lean me towards them as being the two witness who do die.
    I am not so sure how many, in this day and age, could even have that kind of faith. Really have not seen ANYONE beat death in my lifetime, let alone, even being totally healthy all their life.
    Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season

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    All things are possible to him who believes?

    And yet, we're told some things are impossible for God?

    I dunno... that doesn't sound like it quite adds up to me.
    One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father over us all.

  4. #4
    Who said? things are impossile for God????
    Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneStep View Post
    Who said? things are impossile for God????
    Sho nuff! It's impossible for God to:

    Die
    Sin
    Be impure
    Be unjust
    Be unrighteous
    Be unholy


    θεοφιλε

  6. #6
    Oh so silly me.....Now why didn't "I" think of that....
    Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season

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    Quote Originally Posted by VerticalReality View Post
    Recently Toolman and I were having a discussion on divine health, and Toolman made some very true observations about the three parts of man that are to be perfected. The spirit is justified by faith and made perfect, the soul is sanctified daily, and the body is to be glorified when resurrected. Toolman was basically using this biblical truth as evidence that the body will get sick regardless of our faith because it is cursed to die. He was basically stating, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, that since man is in a fallen world and this body is cursed to die then it will get sick regardless of our faith.
    VR,

    Your synopsis of what I believe in this area is very close to what I do believe.

    The only clarification I would add is the following:

    1) Dying is sickness. The body dies because it ages and decays (this would not be the case without sin, it is sin that brings death). Man was created to mature, not to decay.
    Therefore death and sickness are caused by the same root which is a world that is fallen because of Adam's sin and the sin of mankind. In that since, yes, everyone gets "sick", i.e. die.

    2) God can and IMO does still give us healing of disease. He can do this through both supernatural methods (the miraculous) or through giving man wisdom of natural resources (medicine, surgery, etc.).
    There is no guarantee of being healed and God sovereignly decides, as to His purpose and plan, what is needed for each situation.

    3) In a sense, God does save us from sickness in our ongoing sanctification. For instance because I have come to Christ I no longer engage in pre/extra marital sex. Therefore, because of God's sanctifying work, I am, in a sense, saved from sickness. I just think that is an important aspect of sanctification that is worth pointing out.

    Quote Originally Posted by VerticalReality View Post
    I was having this conversation with another individual who also walks in divine health and he brought up an interesting point regarding death. Toolman basically stated that death is the reason this body cannot walk in divine health because it is natural for the body to decay and die due to sickness, disease and the like. While all that sounds reasonable enough judging by our natural surroundings, this individual I was speaking with brought up an interesting point that I hadn't thought about before when Toolman and I were discussing it. I had read this passage of Scripture repeatedly in the past, but I had never really given this much thought. However, to get to the point, it would seem that by this Scripture that even our physical death could be overcome through faith.



    Now this is pretty impressive, IMO. Apparently, due to Enoch's faith, he was taken by God without ever seeing his physical death. Now I realize that this is extremely rare considering Enoch and Elijah are the only two throughout Scripture that were taken before death. And I also understand that it is generally understood that it is appointed unto man once to die. However, Enoch shows that by faith it is possible nonetheless. This got me to thinking, however. I'm wondering if this will ever happen again.

    Also, this says even more to me about when Jesus stated the following . . .

    Now, I'm sure many view this as radical. However, a radical faith seems to get some very extraordinary things brought to reality.
    VR,

    IMO, this is the absolute logical conclusion of the doctrine of "divine health" and why I harped on the relationship between sickness and death so often in the 2 threads where we discussed it.

    I don't think there is another conclusion that can be had.

    If both sickness AND death were destroyed at the cross/resurrection and physical health and life were provided at the cross/resurrection and divine physical health is provided in this life through faith then divine physical life (immortality) must also be provided.

    Therefore the Christian, who believes on Christ, should never get sick and should never die. I don't see any other logical conclusion if you take the position all the way out to its end. That is why I continue to equate and relate them.

    Obviously, I do not believe that to be the correct biblical doctrine, as I believe that divine health and immortality are granted in the resurrection and are not manifest at this time (though they are as sure as our justification).

    Our bodies are redeemed, made incorrupt (no sickness) and immortal (no death) when we are raised as Christ was raised.
    By faith we wait with patient endurance until that time, as Romans 8 points out.

    Was Enoch's faith greater than Joseph's, Paul's, Peter's, Abraham's, etc.?
    Or was it God's decision to keep Enoch (and Elijah) alive because of their faith in Him (not faith that He would keep them from dying but their faith in following and trusting Him).

    Will the faith of that small number who are still alive at Christ's return (1 Thessalonians 4) be greater than that huge number of those who died in the Coliseum's of Rome, eaten alive by lion's and have been martyred throughout the centuries of the Church?

    For me the answer is clear and I appreciate your post here and the discussion of it.
    WDJD - what DID Jesus do

    He died on a cross for our sin and rose from the dead,
    securing, for all who believe, eternal life and forgiveness of sin

    Toolman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toolman View Post
    2) God can and IMO does still give us healing of disease. He can do this through both supernatural methods (the miraculous) or through giving man wisdom of natural resources (medicine, surgery, etc.).
    There is no guarantee of being healed and God sovereignly decides, as to His purpose and plan, what is needed for each situation.
    Thanks for your opinions, Toolman. I did want to address this statement, however. If it is according to God's sovereign will whether or not someone receives healing, why would anyone seek healing of man-made methods if it is not God's will that they be healed? If it's God's will that someone be sick or disease-ridden, why do people go against His sovereign will and seek healing or comfort from these afflictions that God wants them to have? Being that it is God's will that we be sick or disabled in some form or fashion, shouldn't we accept His will for our life and not try to receive treatment or cure from such things that come against us? Are we not to always seek His perfect will for our life?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Toolman View Post
    VR,

    Your synopsis of what I believe in this area is very close to what I do believe.

    The only clarification I would add is the following:

    1) Dying is sickness. The body dies because it ages and decays (this would not be the case without sin, it is sin that brings death). Man was created to mature, not to decay.
    Therefore death and sickness are caused by the same root which is a world that is fallen because of Adam's sin and the sin of mankind. In that since, yes, everyone gets "sick", i.e. die.

    2) God can and IMO does still give us healing of disease. He can do this through both supernatural methods (the miraculous) or through giving man wisdom of natural resources (medicine, surgery, etc.).
    There is no guarantee of being healed and God sovereignly decides, as to His purpose and plan, what is needed for each situation.

    3) In a sense, God does save us from sickness in our ongoing sanctification. For instance because I have come to Christ I no longer engage in pre/extra marital sex. Therefore, because of God's sanctifying work, I am, in a sense, saved from sickness. I just think that is an important aspect of sanctification that is worth pointing out.



    VR,

    IMO, this is the absolute logical conclusion of the doctrine of "divine health" and why I harped on the relationship between sickness and death so often in the 2 threads where we discussed it.

    I don't think there is another conclusion that can be had.

    If both sickness AND death were destroyed at the cross/resurrection and physical health and life were provided at the cross/resurrection and divine physical health is provided in this life through faith then divine physical life (immortality) must also be provided.

    Therefore the Christian, who believes on Christ, should never get sick and should never die. I don't see any other logical conclusion if you take the position all the way out to its end. That is why I continue to equate and relate them.

    Obviously, I do not believe that to be the correct biblical doctrine, as I believe that divine health and immortality are granted in the resurrection and are not manifest at this time (though they are as sure as our justification).

    Our bodies are redeemed, made incorrupt (no sickness) and immortal (no death) when we are raised as Christ was raised.
    By faith we wait with patient endurance until that time, as Romans 8 points out.

    Was Enoch's faith greater than Joseph's, Paul's, Peter's, Abraham's, etc.?
    Or was it God's decision to keep Enoch (and Elijah) alive because of their faith in Him (not faith that He would keep them from dying but their faith in following and trusting Him).

    Will the faith of that small number who are still alive at Christ's return (1 Thessalonians 4) be greater than that huge number of those who died in the Coliseum's of Rome, eaten alive by lion's and have been martyred throughout the centuries of the Church?

    For me the answer is clear and I appreciate your post here and the discussion of it.
    Good Point. We often have misplaced faith. It ends up being faith in my faith and not faith in Jesus. I had a friend tell me one time that he had the faith to be healed but he also had the faith to stay sick if that's what God wanted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VerticalReality View Post
    Thanks for your opinions, Toolman. I did want to address this statement, however. If it is according to God's sovereign will whether or not someone receives healing, why would anyone seek healing of man-made methods if it is not God's will that they be healed?
    Perhaps I view medicine in a different light. I view it as a God given gift and not as a man-made thing.

    It is God who gives man the wisdom for medicine. It is not man-made. Now man can abuse that as He does many of God's gifts but nonetheless the gift is from God.

    It may be God's sovereign will for someone to take medicine for their diabetes or even more so to live a healthy lifestyle of moderation in food and vigorous exercise to prevent diabetes II.
    WDJD - what DID Jesus do

    He died on a cross for our sin and rose from the dead,
    securing, for all who believe, eternal life and forgiveness of sin

    Toolman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toolman View Post
    Perhaps I view medicine in a different light. I view it as a God given gift and not as a man-made thing.

    It is God who gives man the wisdom for medicine. It is not man-made. Now man can abuse that as He does many of God's gifts but nonetheless the gift is from God.

    It may be God's sovereign will for someone to take medicine for their diabetes or even more so to live a healthy lifestyle of moderation in food and vigorous exercise to prevent diabetes II.
    It kind of sounds like you're saying that someone could earn God's complete healing if they would do a little more exercise, but instead He will prefer now that they take medicine and deal with the issue until they take His correction about exercising more.

    Why did Jesus never advise anyone to take medicine instead of seeking Him for complete healing? In fact, the lady with the issue of blood wasted her entire livelihood seeking after cures from worldly physicians with absolutely nothing to show for it except for a worsened condition. However, by her faith she was made well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VerticalReality View Post
    It kind of sounds like you're saying that someone could earn God's complete healing if they would do a little more exercise, but instead He will prefer now that they take medicine and deal with the issue until they take His correction about exercising more.
    No, they will still die but exercise can profit a little. We don't earn anything from God, it is given by grace. That is my position.

    Quote Originally Posted by VerticalReality View Post
    Why did Jesus never advise anyone to take medicine instead of seeking Him for complete healing?
    He did, through the apostle Paul for one. Paul advised Timothy to use wine for his stomach infirmities. This was recorded for our benefit.

    Also, we have a progressive revelation on medicine. The modern "miracles" we have now were progressively given to man, by God, and were unavailable in other ages. Antibiotics alone would have saved countless lives in other ages.

    Quote Originally Posted by VerticalReality View Post
    In fact, the lady with the issue of blood wasted her entire livelihood seeking after cures from worldly physicians with absolutely nothing to show for it except for a worsened condition. However, by her faith she was made well.
    As I said, man can abuse God's gifts (by putting trust in them apart from God) and God can choose to sovereignly heal as He wishes and can make someone blind for their lifetime so that the work of God might be displayed (John 9).

    IMO, God doesn't fit in some neat little box of "if I have faith A then God responds with B". Contrary to that we trust God with whatever our situation, whether being eaten alive by lions or being blessed with abundance, we keep our eyes on Him and our future hope in the fullness of redemption.
    WDJD - what DID Jesus do

    He died on a cross for our sin and rose from the dead,
    securing, for all who believe, eternal life and forgiveness of sin

    Toolman

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    I believe also that it depends on God's will and that no one is exempt from illness, not even Job, but the bible does speak about the body and health in the following passages and I'll add a bit in faith too:

    1 John 5:14
    This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

    Proverbs 3:1-8
    1 My son, do not forget my teaching, but keep my commands in your heart,
    2 for they will prolong your life many years and bring you prosperity.
    3 Let love and faithfulness never leave you; bind them around your neck,
    write them on the tablet of your heart. 4 Then you will win favor and a good name in the sight of God and man. 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil. 8 This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones.


    Proverbs 4:20-23 (Wisdom)
    20 My son, pay attention to what I say; listen closely to my words.
    21 Do not let them out of your sight, keep them within your heart;
    22 for they are life to those who find them and health to a man's whole body. 23 Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life.

    Proverbs 14:30
    30 A heart at peace gives life to the body, but envy rots the bones.

    Proverbs 16:24

    Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones.

    This verse even talks about the body and blood and why so many are weak and sick...is this spiritually, physically or both?

    1 Cor 11:28-32
    28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

    Exodus 15:26

    There the LORD made a decree and a law for them, and there he tested them. 26 He said, "If you listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you."

    James 5:14-16


    Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

    I could go on but I won't . Some of the bible seems to point to sin as causing our illness. The mind, body, heart and soul is where we become sick. For example, unforgiveness can bring anger and hatred in the heart and impure thoughts to the mind. This can bring on depression, anxiety and such that effects the mind and body. The body can have physical ailments such as stomach problems, aches and pains and at worst can bring on heart problems due to stress.

    The bible talks about what is needed to be healed and have a healthy body. It doesn't just consist of exercise and eating right, but it goes deeper...repenting of sins, forgiveness, taming the tongue, guarding the mind, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc. This all brings emotional and spiritual healing which is health for the body.

    God most definitely can bring miraculous healing to our body, heart, soul and mind, but he also teaches us that when we follow his commandments and his words, we can live a long and healthy life. When we pollute our ourselves be it mentally or physically (our bodies being the temple of God), we will cause destruction and he will bring destruction:

    1 Cor 3:16-17
    16Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

    As for medicine. I believe there are meds that are very good and in my opinion, if God doesn't want us to live, no amount of medication will keep us alive. It is only that it is God's will that we remain alive. God gave man the knowledge to create some of those meds, but he also gave us what we really need to remain healthy...his words. Even in times of trouble, his words will bring healing, if not to the body then to the spirit:

    Psalm 34:17-20
    17 The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears them; he delivers them from all their troubles.

    18 The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. 19 A righteous man may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all; 20 he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.

    The above points out that even the righteous will have troubles and that includes illness. With faith, the Lord will deliver us.

    Live your life in such a
    way that, when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says...

    "Oh NO.... she's awake!"

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toolman View Post
    He did, through the apostle Paul for one. Paul advised Timothy to use wine for his stomach infirmities. This was recorded for our benefit.
    I wasn't talking about the issue with Timothy. I'm talking about in the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John that record the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ while he walked this earth in the form of a man. He performed countless healings and miracles during this time. Why didn't He instruct anyone to seek medical treatment from man-made means instead of from Himself during this time?

    Also, we have a progressive revelation on medicine. The modern "miracles" we have now were progressively given to man, by God, and were unavailable in other ages. Antibiotics alone would have saved countless lives in other ages.
    But don't you feel that if medicine was of God and it was His will that we comfort and cure ourselves with this instead of seeking Him, that He would have given mankind revelation on how to create the medication we have today a lot sooner than now? Do you believe it was His will that mankind should suffer with their afflictions for thousands of years before being given some sort of remedy?

    As I said, man can abuse God's gifts (by putting trust in them apart from God) and God can choose to sovereignly heal as He wishes and can make someone blind for their lifetime so that the work of God might be displayed (John 9).
    Another question . . .

    How are we to know whether or not it is God's sovereign will for us to be healed? How are we to pray a prayer of faith if we don't know if we're going to be healed? It seems to me that if someone has the thought of, "maybe He will heal me but maybe He won't" running through their mind when they pray, that they will be like a wave of the sea tossed to and fro. How can you pray a prayer of faith without doubting when you don't know whether or not it is God's will that you be healed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by VerticalReality View Post
    Is Anything Impossible For Those Who Believe?
    ...
    Now, I'm sure many view this as radical. However, a radical faith seems to get some very extraordinary things brought to reality.
    Commenting on just the face of it, this would seem to indicate that the only thing between man and God is belief. Or at the least that man can command God on their behalf.

    Matthew 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

    26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

    So first off, I think all would agree that man himself is not the "doer" so to speak, but rather God through man. This would right away limit the "impossible" to that within God's will. Man can't decide and believe within himself to simply not die. Man can not also obligate God against His will by faith or belief on His behalf.

    I'm not sure exactly what my point is, but I wanted to deal with just the "shock value" of the statement of the thread.
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

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